" Haven'T You Figured Out That Canada Is A Giant Scam? "

[Rockie]

The current PM has a pretty good record in that regard. That said, I'm sure sitting in that chair gives a person a different perspective than us serfs have, not to mention access to information that we don't enjoy. I would hate to have a PM do something stupid or harmful just to honour an ill advised and ignorant campaign promise. Does the word "helicoptors" ring a bell?

There's lots of people who wish Cretin didn't keep that promise.

[BoostedNihilist]

The current PM has a pretty good record in that regard. That said, I'm sure sitting in that chair gives a person a different perspective than us serfs have, not to mention access to information that we don't enjoy. I would hate to have a PM do something stupid or harmful just to honour an ill advised and ignorant campaign promise. Does the word "helicoptors" ring a bell?

I have to agree.

Just once I would like to hear a poltician say something like

"ok, I've seen the books, we're fucked. We can't afford to do anything until we tax you silly to dig out. I promise we will still be broke next election but lets at least try this... (insert idea here)"

That, I would vote for.

That, I can buy.

[Rockie]

The current PM has a pretty good record in that regard. That said, I'm sure sitting in that chair gives a person a different perspective than us serfs have, not to mention access to information that we don't enjoy. I would hate to have a PM do something stupid or harmful just to honour an ill advised and ignorant campaign promise. Does the word "helicoptors" ring a bell?

I have to agree.

Just once I would like to hear a poltician say something like

"ok, I've seen the books, we're fucked. We can't afford to do anything until we tax you silly to dig out. I promise we will still be broke next election but lets at least try this... (insert idea here)"

That, I would vote for.

That, I can buy.

Me too.

[Guido]

The current PM has a pretty good record in that regard. That said, I'm sure sitting in that chair gives a person a different perspective than us serfs have, not to mention access to information that we don't enjoy. I would hate to have a PM do something stupid or harmful just to honour an ill advised and ignorant campaign promise. Does the word "helicoptors" ring a bell?

I have to agree.

Just once I would like to hear a poltician say something like

"ok, I've seen the books, we're fucked. We can't afford to do anything until we tax you silly to dig out. I promise we will still be broke next election but lets at least try this... (insert idea here)"

That, I would vote for.

That, I can buy.

McGuinty did that here in Ontario shortly after taking office... 6 billion dollar deficit that the PCs hid before leaving office - wasn't discovered 'til they did an audit after the Liberals were elected. I didn't vote for the Liberals, but I did appreciate that he was up front about it and said, "Look, things are a hell of a lot different than we thought they would be when we were campaigning... we'll do our best, but taxes are going to have to go up for a bit until we can get the mess sorted out."

[C23flyer]

McGuinty did that here in Ontario shortly after taking office...

And if it wasn't for John Tory's poor campaign choice i.e. faith-based schools, McGuinty would have paid the price for what many called "breaking campaign promises."

[Guido]

McGuinty did that here in Ontario shortly after taking office...

And if it wasn't for John Tory's poor campaign choice i.e. faith-based schools, McGuinty would have paid the price for what many called "breaking campaign promises."

Yup... people are sheep.

[Dex]

The current PM has a pretty good record in that regard. That said, I'm sure sitting in that chair gives a person a different perspective than us serfs have, not to mention access to information that we don't enjoy. I would hate to have a PM do something stupid or harmful just to honour an ill advised and ignorant campaign promise. Does the word "helicoptors" ring a bell?

I have to agree.

Just once I would like to hear a poltician say something like

"ok, I've seen the books, we're fucked. We can't afford to do anything until we tax you silly to dig out. I promise we will still be broke next election but lets at least try this... (insert idea here)"

That, I would vote for.

That, I can buy.

McGuinty did that here in Ontario shortly after taking office... 6 billion dollar deficit that the PCs hid before leaving office - wasn't discovered 'til they did an audit after the Liberals were elected. I didn't vote for the Liberals, but I did appreciate that he was up front about it and said, "Look, things are a hell of a lot different than we thought they would be when we were campaigning... we'll do our best, but taxes are going to have to go up for a bit until we can get the mess sorted out."

And McGuinty learned that from Rae taking over the Peterson regime; during McGuinty's first term. Rae knew and so did McGuinty.; so did every boardroom on Bay street.

[Topspin]

What everybody who complains about taxes fail to reallize is... is that taxes are always relative to disposable incomes.

What I mean is, in a perfect world, if we werent taxed at all, since our disposable income would be twice as much, prices on goods and services would be more expensive too... thus our standard of living would be exactly the same.

You dont believe me??... let me use the housing market as an analogy. Before the 80's, it was more common in a family to have only one bread winner. Thus, the family income was much lower... and the housing market reflected those incomes as prices were 3 times less than they are today.

Now that women are in the work force, and making incomes almost on par to their male counterparts, the family disposable income doubled lets say. So what happened to housing prices...? They also doubled. So we didnt really advance.

To sumarize, the economy and the prices of goods and services always adjust accoring to the Nations average disposable income. This is why we pay higher rates for cell phones over here as compared to Russia.

If we were taxed 90% instead of 60%. What would happen is our salarys over time would drasticly increase, thus we would have the same disposable incomes affording the same things we have today.

If taxes went down overnight to 10%, than prices on goods and services would increase dramiticly, and we would be in the same boat.

Taxes are all relative. Th epoint you have to remeber is.... as long as everyone else is in the same boat as you, than it really doesnt matter how much we get taxed, because its all relative.

Synthpro

I would have to disagree. Corporate economics have replaced the traditional rules of economics. Consider the fact that people are willing to pay as much as $4.00 a litre for coke or bottled water, or $10.00 a litre of red bull. These prices certainly do not reflect supply or production runs. Yet minimum wage earners still routinely purchase these products at inflated prices. Logic would lead me to believe that purchasing power does not dictate price, it is simply what people are willing to pay for products.
There are also things like the Coquihalla highway. Completed 40 years ago yet still being tolled as if it hasn't paid itself off? In BC we have these wonderful things like ICBC, Translink and BC Ferries that collect over a billion dollars a year in retained earnings between them. Yet they were put in place and given essential monopolies to "keep essential services affordable?" Any resident here can tell you differently.

I'm certainly not for a total knockdown of the government, but cleanup is definitely needed.

[xsbank]

Taxes are always punitive and inefficient - it takes whole buildings full of bureaucrats to administer a tax and duplicate buildings full of more bureaucrats to administer the money we give them. Where do you think they get the money for those fancy offices and indexed pensions from?

The free market provides virtually all services cheaper and better than government. Set up a hospital and charge what you want because you are the only one around and other investors see the profits and set up more - with enough competition, the prices fall to a reasonable level that eliminates the windfall profits, unless you differentiate yourself somehow, like Starbucks, where people will line up to pay whatever they ask for a cup of coffee.

Any government business, like ICBC and BC Ferries, gets employees who like the government pay packet, unionize, ask for more and more and eventually we have another layer of coddled, overpaid bureaucrats that would NEVER survive in the real world.

Rant Switch..........OFF

[ottawa,kan]

I hate to jump in at the very end of a long thread....but it seems to me that both Rockie and Boosted miss the point, maybe even to the point of hypocrisy. You don't need to vote to make a modern democracy work. You need to RUN. ISTP says he did a turn on the school board at one time, and tried to run for local rep ( I get your terms mixed up, up there). Boosted should run for something. He's obviously well educated, thoughtfull, well travelled and amazingly self confident. RUN!!! You won't win, is my guess. But seeeing what it takes to win might give you an appreciation of what it would take to change the system. And I do think that Rockie has a point, that even if you just vote to throw the current bastards out, you shake things up a little. Not voting lets your voice be lost among the apathetic. The longer a politician serves, the more corrupt they get, in my opinion. Anyway, more of us need to serve, even just on an appointed board. The Library board. Or the Tree Board. The Zoning appeals board. Lots of oppurtunities to do more than not vote.

[Rockie]

I hate to jump in at the very end of a long thread....but it seems to me that both Rockie and Boosted miss the point, maybe even to the point of hypocrisy. You don't need to vote to make a modern democracy work. You need to RUN.

No. Everyone running for office is not realistic. But everyone can vote.

[Rockie]

Taxes are always punitive and inefficient - it takes whole buildings full of bureaucrats to administer a tax and duplicate buildings full of more bureaucrats to administer the money we give them. Where do you think they get the money for those fancy offices and indexed pensions from?

The free market provides virtually all services cheaper and better than government. Set up a hospital and charge what you want because you are the only one around and other investors see the profits and set up more - with enough competition, the prices fall to a reasonable level that eliminates the windfall profits, unless you differentiate yourself somehow, like Starbucks, where people will line up to pay whatever they ask for a cup of coffee.

Any government business, like ICBC and BC Ferries, gets employees who like the government pay packet, unionize, ask for more and more and eventually we have another layer of coddled, overpaid bureaucrats that would NEVER survive in the real world.

Rant Switch..........OFF

That works well for a lot of things. But not roads, electricity, water, defence, schools...the list goes on. Some things have to be the responsibility of government because they are answerable to the people, not a BoD or shareholders.

[Topspin]

Taxes are always punitive and inefficient - it takes whole buildings full of bureaucrats to administer a tax and duplicate buildings full of more bureaucrats to administer the money we give them. Where do you think they get the money for those fancy offices and indexed pensions from?

The free market provides virtually all services cheaper and better than government. Set up a hospital and charge what you want because you are the only one around and other investors see the profits and set up more - with enough competition, the prices fall to a reasonable level that eliminates the windfall profits, unless you differentiate yourself somehow, like Starbucks, where people will line up to pay whatever they ask for a cup of coffee.

Any government business, like ICBC and BC Ferries, gets employees who like the government pay packet, unionize, ask for more and more and eventually we have another layer of coddled, overpaid bureaucrats that would NEVER survive in the real world.

Rant Switch..........OFF

That works well for a lot of things. But not roads, electricity, water, defence, schools...the list goes on. Some things have to be the responsibility of government because they are answerable to the people, not a BoD or shareholders.

Do you honestly believe that they are answerable? Look at a company like translink, that reinvents the idea of bad service. Yet the retain earnings of over 250 million per year, and the management meets in private, the public is not allowed any intervention. This is the future of our government?

[Rockie]

Translink is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You can put NAVCAN on the list along with 407ETR, GTAA and a host of other infrastructures that have been put in the hands of private enterprise. Sure, the government retains regulatory and legislative control, but are hands off in the day to day operation. They are run for profit, not service.

Wait for the day the Department of National Defence becomes the Canadian Security and Defence Corporation. We've started down that road already with the Americans leading the way.

[Hedley]

the public is not allowed any intervention. This is the future of our government?

No, that's our current government.

[Topspin]

Translink is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You can put NAVCAN on the list along with 407ETR, GTAA and a host of other infrastructures that have been put in the hands of private enterprise. Sure, the government retains regulatory and legislative control, but are hands off in the day to day operation. They are run for profit, not service.

Wait for the day the Department of National Defence becomes the Canadian Security and Defence Corporation. We've started down that road already with the Americans leading the way.

Translink remains a public crown corp and the board members remain public servants. The only private aspect to it is the coast mountain bus company, which may not be the best service around but are better than translinks services and infrastructure services.
What about ICBC, 100% crown corp. They still retain 1/3 billion a year to keep services "affordable" by bankrupting motorists. The situation is really screwed up.

[blueskies777]

Canada is great!!!!

All you with negative opinions of Canada will love it by the time you finished reading this.

I am an immigrant from South Africa.
You people dont know how good you really have it here.
The problem is, that people dont have a clue of how it is in other countries.(they just assume)
Well take it from me.I lived in SA for 21 years(I moved here 7 years ago)

Try getting a visa for whatever country using a south african passport.(I know,ive tried)

You want to start a business in Canada,you can make $$$$ because of your close proximity to the US market.

It also annoys me a bit about the taxes and stuff.But you will NEVER have it perfect anywhere
But believe me when i say,we have it good in Canada!!!!

If you have lived in constant fear,you would understand what im talking about.

Below are some stats(from the south african police website)
This will open your eyes!!!
From 2001-2007 about 70000 people were murdered in south africa.(check the stats for yourself)
Every 26 seconds a woman gets raped.(thats not there,but you can search google for that figure)

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/repor ... es/rsa.pdf

Below are some crime stats for Canada for 2006.
South africa has a population of about 50 million.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/8 ... 007005.pdf

If you are still complaining,live in south africa for 10 years.
denounce your canadian citizenship,and try get along with a south african passport.

if you arent willing to do those things,keep quite,and pay your taxs!!!!

[Hedley]

I am sorry that you set the bar so low, and expect
so little from your elected government, whom your
hard-earned tax dollars entirely pay for.

[xsbank]

I agree with Hedley (gawd this is happening more and more these days ) the reason for complaining/whining/bullyragging the government is to make the f*ckers work HARDER and make the country BETTER.

Harper just 'gave' Bombardier a ton of money for the C-series start-up, but less than 3 years ago he campaigned on a platform of free enterprise and no handouts to industry. I'm glad he gave them the dosh, otherwise they would be building them in Missouri, but really, is he that stupid that he really has no coherent policy? Is he making it up as he goes along? Minority government, anyone? Except for the very coherent plans to fleece the country that many Liberals worked very hard, long hours to accomplish, they are ALL making it up as they go along!

This country can be better, much better, instead of this shambling slapdash conglomeration of goofiness that we all live in.

Setting the bar at an African level is nonsensical.

[Rockie]

Striving for better is the right and proper thing to do no matter where you call home. No one is suggesting we just shut up and accept corruption and/or incompetence on the part of our government. I think what this fellow was referring to is the people who profess to be so embarrassed or disallusioned by Canada that they want to renounce their citizenship and move elsewhere. South Africa is regarded as a pretty civilized place, but I know plenty of South Africans who couldn't wait to get out and move to Canada for the reasons he states in his post. He is only reminding all of us to keep things in perspective. This is a great place, taxes and all.

Calling Canada a scam as the title of this thread does is patently ridiculous.

[bmc]

Canada IS a great place to live.

I just don't happen to live there for the moment.

Challenging the country to make it a better place is inherently good. Accepting it for it's problems is a cop out.

[blueskies777]

Dont get south Africa mixed up with Zimbabwe or Nigeria.
Its not like that at all.

The only reason its a third world country is because of the crime/unemployment rate,not because its not developed.

If I stuck you in the middle of a city in south africa,you wouldnt know you were in Africa.We DONT live in mud huts and with lions you know.

The more people have,the more they tend to complain.
Some kid in africa with no shoes doesnt complain as much as the kid here who has a PS3.....etc etc!!

I agree that things can get better in canada.The healthcare is ok(depending where you live),the roads are shit(im from quebec)
The taxes are high.

But at the end of they day, i appreciate what i have NOW,and i try make MY life better!!!

I am sorry that you set the bar so low, and expect
so little from your elected government, whom your
hard-earned tax dollars entirely pay for.
I am sorry that you set the bar so low, and expect
so little from your elected government, whom your
hard-earned tax dollars entirely pay for.

Thats socialist thinking man!!!
Make you OWN life better.

You have a CANADIAN passport that can easily get you into ANY country in the world.

Once any of you complainers apply for a visa,and get called into a 6x4 room and are DRILLED as to the reasons why you want a visa......then come talk to me.

[Hedley]

No one is suggesting we just shut up and accept corruption and/or incompetence on the part of our government

Really? I can't think of a better, single defining characteristic
of a Canadian than that.

The apathy of most Canadians towards their corrupt and incompetent
government is truly frightening.

P.S. Someone call the Guinness Book of World Records - I have
just been called a Socialist Most of the time, I am accused
of being 8 points to the right of Atilla the Hun.

[Rockie]

That's hardly a defining characteristic of Canadians Hedley. There is a tolerance level for everything and yours is just lower than most for that kind of thing. You should go work for Shiela Fraser...I'll happily write you a letter of recommendation. But in reality our government is pure as the driven snow compared to most in the world.

[Hedley]

compared to most in the world

That's a cop-out, Rockie, and you know it.

Imagine prisoners in Block A talking to prisoners in Block B.

Prisoners in Block B are grumbling because they are anally
gang raped every week.

But the prisoners in Block A tell the prisoners in Block B
that they are "lucky" because the prisoners in Block A
are anally gang raped every day.

I'm not sure, that as taxpaying citizens, we should
strive to settle for that kind of "luck".

Try setting the bar a little higher, Rockie. Expect
more from your government. You pay for it with
your tax dollars.

Why are Canadians so apathetic about the incredibly
arrogant "culture of entitlement" that our government
has towards Canadian citizens and their hard-earned
tax dollars?

btw, the Fraser dig - was I just called right wing now?
Could you people insulting me at least get your story
straight? Am I right wing or left wing?