Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[AuxBatOn]

Strega, shit happens. How we deal with it when it happens shows our caracter. Saying it's utter stupidity won't help anything. Finding causes and ways to improve will help. Did you read the accident report at least? It's not the first one and it won't be the last gear up landing.

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

how many gear up landings happen at westjet? quantas? CX? The Goat?

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for "Forgetting" to lower the gear.

PERIOD.

[AuxBatOn]

how many gear up landings happen at westjet? quantas? CX? The Goat?

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for "Forgetting" to lower the gear.

PERIOD.

There is no excuse but it does happen. How many pilots per airplane at Westjet? How long between the pre-landing check and the landing at west jet? Differnet operations, different problems, different factors for different accidents. Read the report, you'll see...

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

[quote
There is no excuse but it does happen. How many pilots per airplane at Westjet? How long between the pre-landing check and the landing at west jet? Differnet operations, different problems, different factors for different accidents. Read the report, you'll see...

AuxBatOn[/quote]


people drown in their bathtubs as well.

STUPIDITY!

[AuxBatOn]

So what do you suggest? Tell them they are stupid and should be banned from flying and the school should keep operating the way they do? Great idea genius, way to get people to report flight safety incidences. You know, not everybody is as perfect as you seem to be and normal people actually make mistakes.

AuxBatOn

[Flaperons]

how many gear up landings happen at westjet? quantas? CX? The Goat?

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for "Forgetting" to lower the gear.

PERIOD.

There is no excuse but it does happen. How many pilots per airplane at Westjet? How long between the pre-landing check and the landing at west jet? Differnet operations, different problems, different factors for different accidents. Read the report, you'll see...

AuxBatOn

Strega: Of course shit happens. People do @#$! up. That's why it's called pilot error (a.k.a. human error, as it really should be called). Almost every aviation accident in history has been, at least in small part, the result of some kind of pilot mistake. Pilots with twenty times your experience, maturity, intelligence and skill have piled it in because of "stupid" mistakes. So bite your fucking tongue, little boy. And I would avoid comparing anything to airline ops until you actually work in them. You have no idea how many little fuckups occur everyday that no one ever hears about. A fourteen-hour duty day, with 7 legs, on min rest can breed many a brainfart. You'll only hear about a potentially deadly situation if a bird breaks, someone dies, or an emergency is declared.

You really should pay more attention to my tagline. You're sounding younger and dumber with every post. Really, quit while you're only 4 miles behind.

[BoostedNihilist]

You have no idea how many little fuckups occur everyday that no one ever hears about. A fourteen-hour duty day, with 7 legs, on min rest can breed many a brainfart.

ahh yes, this is what makes stupid okay.

[Flaperons]

ahh yes, this is what makes stupid okay.

It's not about stupid being okay. It's about reality. Shit happens, and shit will continue to happen. Let me school you now, son. As the industry tanks further and further, and management power positions against pilot groups become stronger and stronger, you will see a further reduction in safety. This is not "okay"; this is life. Every downturn results in a shittier deal for pilots. Period. Now a good chunk of that is due to the fact that pilots seem more than happy to sell themselves (and their compatriots) down the river when faced with furloughs. Regardless of how pathetic that reality may be, the deal continues to get worse.

Now I've rambled a bit, which I'm sure has nothing to do with the seven vodka-tonics I've thrown down. My point is that some little shit like Strega has no place throwing judgment on any accident. Those of us who've been in the game for a while, regardless of which branch of it, know the real deal. Keep your little bitch-ass comments to yourself until you're really in the show. And when you are, keep swallowing 'em, because one day you might be the "stupid" @#$! that geared up, or piled into a mountain because you dialed in a freq instead of an identifier.

In short: Strega, shut the @#$! up.

[multiprop]

Well I heard the same instructor almost had a gear up landing in Seminole owened by Toronto Airways a day earlier. Hmmm, I wonder if there is a pattern? One of the other TAL instructors saw the plane coming in on final for 15 and called tower to tell them that the seminole had no gear. On the overshoot they lowered the gear!

Remember folks.......3 GREEN!!!!! Damn that's why we have the GUMP check!!

[C23flyer]

Well I heard the same instructor...

Factual information would be prudent here...someone's personal reputation is already half destroyed.

Strega, are you planning on giving up flying soon? The odds are against someone like you, with a flawless record and all.

[Inverted2]

So did Seneca take away their cool jackets with "Aviation" emblazoned across the back after they geared up??

[Strega]

Flaperons,

Forgeting the gear, is on the same level as fogetting to start the engines before take-off.

Are you the instructor that was on board when this incident happened?

Again, try as you may, you cannot justify forgetting the gear, in a light twin, when 2 pilots (one being the PIC) are at the controls.

You are the one looking like a fool for trying to do so!

[Hedley]

Calm down, Strega. I'm sure both of the pilot involved
will eventually get hired by AC anyways.

[niss]

No one here has the right to challenge Strega's skills or reputation.

As I understand he came right out of the womb with a leather jacket and a set of aviators on.

Apparently he soloed within .5 hr and got his PPL in 10. I heard that he considers IFR approach to mins "for pussies" and insists on doing them with his eyes closed just to challenge himself.

I heard that his dick is so long and so well trained that he never has to worry about gear up landings because his cock just shoots out, and slams the gear lever down.

I heard that once he didn't like the weather so he got out and kicked the clouds out of his way.

I heard that he was so sick and tired of the performance of his fixed pitch trainer that he got out and twisted it by hand to what he thought was good.

I heard that Strega pisses 100LL and ejaculates JetA.

[Strega]

Niss,

I am not gods gift to aviation as you might imply.

What I do know, I was taught. Apparently students these days are taught (from the likes of people such as flaperons) that forgetting the gear is an acceptable practice, wich it is not.

[Crown_n_Coke]

For what it's worth, In the early 1990's, I spent a long lunch break at YMX watching a Luftansa A320 doing circuits with it's gear in the down position the entire time. Don't know why but I know that they were training new pilots.

[niss]

Strega,

I don't think landing gear up is acceptable either, but I have seen you in these forums consistently bash people over things that may be trivial to you but milestones to them.

You fail to word your posts in a manner that would indicate forward thinking and striving for improvement, rather you word your posts in such a way that you sound snobish and egotistical.

Perhaps in the future you may want to reword your posts to not seem so self righteous if that is not your intent?

[BTD]

Strega,

Here are some examples of Airliners that have crashed as a result of an oops similar to that of forgetting the gear.
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR88-05.pdf
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR82-08.pdf
Comair in Kentucky (no link for that one)

It is not about trying to justify the accident. It is about discovering the cause or the reason for the cause and working to better procedures, equipment or mindset. If you think that you are above doing something like landing gear up you either have very little experience or you are a hero.

Take some time to read the above accident reports.

Northwest Accident: Capt= 20859TT 1359(DC9PIC) FO=8044TT 1604(DC9)-
Forgot to extend flaps/slats during taxi (T/O warning horn was U/S)

Air Florida Accident: Capt=8300TT 1100(737PIC), FO=3353TT 992(737) previously F15 pilot
In addition to other items, Forgot to turn on the engine anti ice leading to erroneous readings of the EPR during take-off



BTD

[C23flyer]

So just to be clear, everyone agrees that landing with gear up is a no-no.

Looking at it from the student's POV, I can understand Strega's outrage. As a student, I trusted my instructor to know more than me, to provide the best training available, etc. There were times when I wondered if either was the case, and I would eventually double check with others who were pilots as to their experience. Forums like this are extremely useful, after filtering out all the garbage. It will be interesting to see if there was a mechanical issue. As yet, there appears to be no follow-up, though it is expected.

So just to be clear, I said "I can understand Strega's outrage." I didn't say I agree with how he is expressing himself.

[Airtids]

Flight instruction 101. First things learned are very hard to unlearn.

These students in their first circuits are learning that their gear is always down and thus not developing the automatic response which is to lower the gear in the circuit.

It will be interesting to compare the cost savings of not swing the gear each circuit to the loss of all the repairs. I'm assuming prop strike, thus new props, engine tear down and inspection, major underbelly fusalge damage, and of course down time on the aircraft, pluss increased insurance premiums.

OH and thanks by the way cuz everytime this happens it's not just the one flight schools premiums that go up it affects all aircraft, though to a lesser degree.

The best comment in this entire thread, hands down.

[albertdesalvo]

It will be interesting to see if there was a mechanical issue.

As I write, there are 94 posts in this thread, and only one other person besides yourself has mentioned the possibility of a mechanical malfunction. All these people ASSuming the pilots f*cked up would be singing a different tune if this was a fatal accident. Oh yes, then you'd be hearing cries of, "wait for the results of the investigation, speculation and rumours are way out of line, have respect for the deceased and their families" etc etc etc. Bah! Talk about hypocrisy.

[Hedley]

I've always thought that doing circuits in a retractable
gear (esp multi-engine) aircraft was something of an
unnatural act. Maybe it's just me, but approaches
would be more appropriate.

Perhaps I am being overly optimistic that someone's
stick & rudder skills should be reasonably solid by the
time they advance to an advanced retractable gear trainer?

I realize some people require remedial landing
practice, but I'm not sure a retractable gear
aircraft is really the best choice for such training.

If someone has difficulty landing an aircraft,
perhaps some time in a 172 would help?

[Big Pistons Forever]

When I did my multi trainer my very expereinced instructor made a big deal about verbalizing a "gear down" call when I was established on final at 500 AGL. He beat me up pretty badly when I forgot, and at the time I thought he was a bit over the top. Not that long afterwards I was landing at my home field when the landing runway was changed just as I was about to lower theh gear, I was asked to orbit when another guy got confused where he was going so I thought I should leave the gear up untill tower comes up with a plan for me. I came out of the turn positioned for a close base leg and was immediately cleared to land with the admonition to keep it in close. Rolling in on final the automatic reaction that had been beaten in to me kicked in and I internally verbalised gear down, looked at the lights fully expecting to see 3 green ...and then realized that the gear was in fact still up. I think the majority of gear up accidents happen when the pilot gets distracted by an unexpected event. It is for situations like this, that developing a routine which you perform automatiacally ever time really pays off.

My 02 cents: If you are a learning on a retract, force yourself to verbalize the gear down call on every landing and beat yourself up everytime you are late or forget it.

Oen thing I have noticed is there seems to be a tendancy for FTU's to have very elaborate checklists. One FTU twin I saw had a final checklist with 9 items. I do not know if this applies to the operator in this thread , but I think in general there is a point of diminishing returns with checklists and in the case of the example above I wonder how often this checklist just gets glossed over when the student is trying to fly the airplane and do the checklist. If "gear down" is in the middle of a bunch of other stuff I could see it easily getting missed. I am not implying this is the case in the accident here, but just making a general comment. IMO the only thing you have to do on final is check the gear is down and give the brakes a squeeze.

A related topic is the case of gear up accidents during touch and go landings where the student raised the gear and the flaps. I know of two of these on my home field alone.

I am very hard over on how I teach the multi rating, so

For Full Stop landings,I demand the student not touch anything untill the aircraft has turned off the runway and the aircraft has come to a full stop; and

For Touch and Go's, There is a strict and unvarying division of cockpit duties. After touch down the student concentrates on steering the aircraft and I reconfigure the aircraft for takeoff and call "set for takeoff" with the student then advancing the throttles. I insist the student maintian his/her left hand on the yolk and their right hand on the throttles throughout the touch and go.

[Hedley]

For Touch and Go's

Still not sure why anyone would voluntarily do a T&G in
a retractable gear aircraft. I have a feeling that you do
not need to go looking for trouble, it will find you all on
it's own!

A low approach (with the gear down) then an overshoot
to another simulated approach is a far better use
of a retractable gear aircraft, IMHO. Because that's
what retractable gear aircraft do - fly x/c then perform
an instrument approach.

P.S. I agree with you that everyone in the training
industry likes to have truly excessive checklists, to
try to force pilots to have their heads down in the
circuit, instead of flying the aircraft or looking for traffic.
A C150 is not a four-engine bomber, and does not
require the same checklist as one.

P.P.S. Pilots who's hands are a blur in the cockpit
make me nervous. Rarely is there a need to move
that quickly.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hedly

I agree if it was me I would make every landing a full stop. I try to minimize the number of touch and go's but I have found most students come straight out of the C 150/172 and need a bit of practice to make good landings. If I insisted on a full stop for every landing I would probably add an extra .8 to 1.0 to the course because of the time to taxi back and waiting at the hold line. Also the student will be expected to do a touch and go on their flight test so they should not IMO be doing a manoever on a flight test that was not covered in training

re your point about checklists. there is a difference between a FTU C150 checklist and a four engine bomber...... the bomber has a shorter checklist