JAZZ sold?

[ourkid2000]

I think this is a stupid discussion......ridiculous really because it seems to be revolving around some self-righteous Air Canada pilots. Everyone keeps saying that "real" Air Canada employees should get the priority and that their own should be looked after. Thats utter rubbish and one of the most disgusting notions I've heard from our own people in years. And here's why:

What exactly is a real Air Canada employee? Last year, the mechanics were "real" employees and because they got sold off, now you're completely excluding them because "technically" they're no longer AC employees and they should go to the bottom of the pile. Thats absolute garbage in my mind. By that rationale, the friggin' new hire rampies (who are still "real" AC employees) would get priority over the 30 year guy who's kept the planes flyin' all these years. Respect to the AC Rampies.....I used to be an AC rampie for 5 years during the merger era, I know the deal. Air Canada relies on Jazz..........Jazz depends on Air Canada. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement and we all benefit if the relationship is a good one.

Basically by getting on this way, you pilots are seeing the chance & seizing the opportunity to forsake your fellow workers who helped build that company. I wonder if your tune would change if AC pilots somehow became ex-AC employees like most of your buddies. I know it would. What happens if the only actual AC employees left in a few years are pilots after all the related entities are sold off? Are you now at the top of the traveling heap? Please, get real!! In any case, you must realize the company is licking their chops over a divisive issue like this and your only going to create more bitterness amongst us and by d'jesus we don't need any more of that.

[SouthIsland]

Well said Ourkid.

Tony....if I wasn't such a gentleman I might call you a douche bag. Sure glad I don't have to sit next to you.

I think a little less time on this forum and a lot more time in "reality" would do you some good.

[tonysoprano]

Oh ya South, very productive. You sure seem to have a sense of "reality" compared to me. You come on here sounding like a little punk with an ignorant attitude. That's reality. You draw to conclusions without reading the whole story. Have a look back at what someone else was trying to tell you. Don't like my opinions? Too bad. Read the whole thread and you might learn something.

Ourkid:

I think this is a stupid discussion......ridiculous really because it seems to be revolving around some self-righteous Air Canada pilots.

Self-righteous? Speaking for myself, I made it quite clear that I'm in favour of any agreement that is fair to both AC and Jazz. That is what we seem to have. I don't see self-righteousness there.

What exactly is a real Air Canada employee?

Again, I stated this is still a bit of a grey area but I think you're going to see it become more clear in the coming months. Whatever agreements take place are fine with me as long as ACPA has some say in it. What I see here in this "stupid discussion" is people who are not paying attention and just can't get off that mainline bashing stuff. That is pretty clear. It's getting old.

[ourkid2000]

I'm not bashing Mainline.....I'm bashing you and people who think like you. As far as i'm concerned, we're all still the same bunch. If I had to give up my Jazz seat because a 30 yr ACTS guy gets on before me, then so be it. This issue is a double edged sword and I hope this can of worms is never opened.

[tonysoprano]

Hey kid, you like going around in circles don't you? You and I are saying the same thing. It's nice to think we are all the same bunch and we still are in so many ways but ACE has now set the stage for all of that to change. Maybe it will, maybe not. The only point I'm making to you is that this could all change in the near future now that we are separate entities. Separate as in different bank accounts, registered companies etc. In its first quarter results, AC did not take into consideration the Jazz performance for the first time ever. Does this tell us something? You tell me. This will no doubt go beyond the travel benefits implication. It could easily change everything. I don't know if you've been paying any attention to what ACE has done to all of us lately, I'm sure you have but it's a reality, like it or not. Get use to it. We carry the maple leaf on our tails. That's it. We also share that with Georgian. When ACE goes away you will see this even better. That doesn't mean however, that we can't have agreements as far as travel or other benefits. The CPA agreement will go on for years. In fact, as I repeat myself, I like things the way they are now. And I will stop repeating myself, over and outta here.

[ourkid2000]

It would stand to reason that if we are indeed all separate, the best boarding priority should be given to our own employees first. If there is an agreement between Jazz and AC that has us all on the same priority using DOH, that's fine as well. As far as the other entities, I think they should have a lower priority. We no longer work for the same company.

Have you forgotten what you wrote? Our own employees first huh? We are NOT saying the same thing dude.

[tonysoprano]

If there is an agreement between Jazz and AC that has us all on the same priority using DOH, that's fine as well.

We are saying the same thing. I am all for what we have now.
Any lack of such an agreement should give mainline better priority on our airplanes. Nothing has changed. I am simply saying that we no longer have to be confined to those rules since by definition, we no longer are one. This item will now become a negotiable item for all of us and our respective unions should do so, not be company imposed. There is something fundamentally wrong with a secretary at Aeroplan having the same priority as you or me on our respective airplanes just because AC or Jazz management says so. What can Aeroplan do for me in return? Sorry if I don't feel the warm and cozy togetherness that you do. This will all take some time to iron out.

[squawk 7600]

divide and conquer! No wonder WestJet does so well...people actually enjoy their jobs and WANT to see the COMPANY do well, not just themselves personally. The entire AC group (and I mean all the carriers that carry AC pax like Jazz and Georgian) could be a very strong one if people could actually get along and look at the big picture. But from what I've heard, ACPA does a very good job of instilling the "we are all that matters" attitude in AC employees.

I wonder what's going to happen when AC declares bankruptcy again in the very, very near future.

[tonysoprano]

Unbelievable. The big picture surely isn't travel priorities at AC/Jazz. It's stupid comments like that one. The brainwashing is getting embarrassing. But then again it does bring in profits. No thanks.

[rudder]

This item will now become a negotiable item for all of us and our respective unions should do so, not be company imposed. There is something fundamentally wrong with a secretary at Aeroplan having the same priority as you or me on our respective airplanes just because AC or Jazz management says so. What can Aeroplan do for me in return? Sorry if I don't feel the warm and cozy togetherness that you do. This will all take some time to iron out.

Personal travel will never be a function of any labour agreement, save and except for boilerplate language like "Personal travel privileges will be provided as per Company Policy". What are you going to do, tell Montie Brewer what his travel rights are? At best, this is a political matter and even then is clearly a can of worms.

Perhaps the more focused debate, which will unify rather than divide, is the impending restoration of service charges in 2009 which will attract all of the nuisance fees and raise the cost of personal travel and commuting by 300-500%.

[tonysoprano]

For the sake of all us commuters I hope you're right. Somehow though Montie or ACPA just might use it as weapon.

[SouthIsland]

we no longer are one.

There is something fundamentally wrong with a secretary at Aeroplan having the same priority as you or me

What can Aeroplan do for me in return?

With an attitude like that it's obvious you're a real asset to the Air Canada team!

[tonysoprano]

Don't take my word for it. Just wait.

[vortac]

Tony. If you could only stand back and realize how ridiculous, presumptuous and pompous you sound.

[tonysoprano]

vortac. I think we've beaten this topic to death. now we know where we all stand. If it sounds arrogant maybe I didn't do a good job of explaning it. It is not something I have dreamed up. Believe me the general consensus at work is much in line with what I've been saying. the days of "me too" may be over soon. I don't know. But it sure sounds like people want some changes. For our sake as commuters, I hope not. I don't use Jazz very much but I sometimes do and I have never had problems with seniority or priority. Pass travel is alot of fun and a great priveledge. On this topic it all depends on which side of the fence you're on.

[Brick Head]

Don't take my word for it. Just wait.

Guys,

Really don't want to wade into this. Not really sure where I stand on the issue anyway. I see both sides.

But your shooting the messenger on this one.

This has been a simmering issue within the entire Mainline ranks (FA's, Pilots, MTC ect) since it was arbitrarily changed a few years back. And yes there is a large population who want the past travel policy restored.

The issue will be addressed in 2009 simply because as rudder correctly points out the service charge issue needs to be addressed.

As always AC has deliberately created an issue where there wasn't one in the first place. Then they demand a trade off to put it back, which will be next. I'm thinking they are going to use the absorbent service charge fee's, that have been silently increasing in the back ground, as a bargaining chip. They will want the dollar value removed from the negotiating table if we want to get rid of them.

The in fighting is just a side benefit.

Don't shoot.

[Willie Limits]

It's truly sad to see the infighting so strong just when we need some unity the most.

"What can aeroplan do for me?"... Well they can work their a$$ off every day to fill the seats in the backs of our airplanes so that we will have a job to go to. Every agent, ground handler, mechanic, FA, and pilot has to get up early every work day and make our respective companies work together cohesively, and every one of us grunt workers deserves date of hire travel. Just because I sit up front, make big decisions, and push buttons, I know that I may not have a job without the aeroplan agent.

As for the commuters and who would be better off, AC or Jazz, why do we have to beat each other down. Instead why don't we work together and negotiate for pos space when commuting. If our companies don't want to pay us more, then they can at least provide the means for us to live in lower cost cities and still allow us to get to work. That is something we can both get behind.

[Four1oh]

I'm still trying to figure out Tony's 'brainwashing' shot.

[Maxpwr]

It's truly sad to see the infighting so strong just when we need some unity the most.

"What can aeroplan do for me?"... Well they can work their a$$ off every day to fill the seats in the backs of our airplanes so that we will have a job to go to. Every agent, ground handler, mechanic, FA, and pilot has to get up early every work day and make our respective companies work together cohesively, and every one of us grunt workers deserves date of hire travel. Just because I sit up front, make big decisions, and push buttons, I know that I may not have a job without the aeroplan agent.

As for the commuters and who would be better off, AC or Jazz, why do we have to beat each other down. Instead why don't we work together and negotiate for pos space when commuting. If our companies don't want to pay us more, then they can at least provide the means for us to live in lower cost cities and still allow us to get to work. That is something we can both get behind.

Finally! best post i've read all year!

[Traf]

Problem is there are too many that feel they are entitled to something more...

Gotta wonder how important this travel thing really is to ACPA. How much of your barganing power are you guys willing to use up on this? I would laugh my a$$ off if ACPA won travel priority and were able to commmute 1st in line on Jazz' Embs!!!

Division, the perfect negotiating weapon for the company!!! "On your mark, get set, GO!!! The race to the bottom has begun folks. ACPA is now in the lead. Now in the first turn Jazz has pulled ahead. Neck and neck! Coming in to turn four it is ACPA gaining the edge. In the straightaway, Jazz is gaining, their getting closer, closer and by a nose , the winner is......"

[Johnny767]

You boys don't have to worry much, ACPA couldn't find their..ass..with both hands. They are busy, as we speak, running around the country holding road shows on how to screw the ex-Canadi>n Pilots.

8 years after the fact!

The company will never let pass travel become part of negotiations.

[Brick Head]

Internal Memorandum
Date:August 23, 2007To:All Delta EmployeesFrom:Rob Kight, Vice-President Compensation, Benefits & ServicesSubject:Rob Memo: Change to boarding priority on ASA flights

This month marks the two-year anniversary of Delta's sale of ASA to SkyWest Inc. The transaction was a critical component of Delta’s transformation helping us achieve important financial objectives. However, a transaction of this magnitude is not completed overnight and there were many details to sort out and finalize over time.
After months of negotiations between our companies, this week, Delta signed a number of agreements with SkyWest Airlines and ASA finalizing several outstanding post-sale items, including pass travel for Delta employees on ASA aircraft and pass travel for ASA employees on Delta mainline aircraft. Effective Dec. 1, 2007, Delta employees will have a boarding priority of S3C on ASA aircraft and similarly ASA employees will travel S3C on Delta mainline aircraft. Currently, both Delta and ASA employees can use S2 and S3 priorities on both Delta mainline and ASA aircraft. These changes apply only to pleasure travel. Company business travel will not be impacted.
We know that these changes may impact some Delta employees that commute or travel frequently to cities served by ASA. However, this approach is consistent with the way we handle travel with SkyWest and most of our other Delta Connection partners. In fact, throughout the industry, most mainline carriers use this approach with their respective regional airline partners. Overall we feel this solution does the best job of protecting the ability of Delta employees to access the Delta mainline system while still providing access to an important part of our system. Operational leaders in In-Flight, Flight Operations, and Airport Customer Service will provide further details about these changes in division-specific communications over the several days. In addition, you can find FAQs and other helpful information on the Pass Travel site on DeltaNet.
Rob Kight

[Pratt]

That is the way it used to be between mainline and the regionals. As you see each Company has higher priority on its respective airplanes and lower on the others. Helped some and hurt others, but so does the current scenario. But in neither case does mainline have super seniority on all the flights in the system, that would be foolish.

[Jaques Strappe]

Brickhead Wrote:

As always AC has deliberately created an issue where there wasn't one in the first place. Then they demand a trade off to put it back, which will be next. I'm thinking they are going to use the absorbent service charge fee's, that have been silently increasing in the back ground, as a bargaining chip. They will want the dollar value removed from the negotiating table if we want to get rid of them.

You hit the nail on the head right there. My personal opinion is that service charges for personal passes are going to be huge with the argument that the increase will be needed to offset the fuel cost for the added weight of a contingent passenger. Don't like that? Well we just so happened to have assigned a dollar value to that "priviledge" if you can make it up somewhere else, then we can talk about reducing the service charges...........That is exactly what will happen. I think they will also want something for the jumpseat policy as well.

It is the typical American marketing machine at work. Create an issue that induces fear and anxiety, then provide a solution with a cost associated to it. I would not rule out varing service charges for varying groups depending on what those groups give up.