2 crew environment

[Severe Clear]

Just wondering what other people are experiencing in their 2 crew experiences. I've flown with lots of different Captains and experienced one extreme to the next. Captains who don't follow SOP's and are old and grumpy, and newer inexperienced captains who work with the co-pilot as a team. I'd like to hear other co-pilots stories as to what they are noticing in respect to the wide range of attitudes with Captains. Also Captains feel free to comment on what you have been noticing with co pilots and what you expect from them. I’m by no means trying to start a captain / FO debate, just would like to hear stories and experiences.

[just curious]

i'M ONE OF THE Captains who follow SOP's and are old and grumpy.

[Cat Driver]

Here is a question from an old pilot.

SOP's are like religion ten companies can fly the same airplane and they will have ten different SOP's for the same airplane.

How does one know which SOP is the true SOP?

Aviation has become sort of like going to church each one has the only true way.

If you break the SOP of the church they say I will die and go to hell.

What happens if one breaks the SOP's of the company you are flying for, will you die?

[Ryan Coke2]

No one right SOP exists, on that you are correct---they are always evolving and changing. But the right one is the one that your company uses. The point of an SOP isn't that everyone agree it is the best way to do things (Because 100 pilots can have 100 'best ways'), but that everyone does it the same way.

It is the pilots who think that they have the 'better way' and do it that way, that are eroding the overall safety of the group. By doing it their own way, they are minimizing the potential of flight deck team work, and weakening the safety net it provides.

But I am probably preaching to the choir of your church, right?

[Flybabe]

Well, I've been both and have flown with both.

I'd like to say that I'm one of the newer-age captains that works WITH the copilot. I'm still responsible for making the end decision but the input of all crew members is valuable. Maybe I'm on glue, I dunno.

At the moment, I'm back to the right seat. There are some very grumpy captains in this industry. I work with one that's extremely opinionated, very high strung, very old school and really tough to get along with (he's always right and, as mentioned, has an opinion) but he's a damn good driver. I've had grumpy, crotchety captains and laid back, fun, easy to get along with captains.

I'm lucky I don't have one that one of my co-workers has... a "sit on your hands, don't do anything unless I ask you because you're only there for insurance purposes" kind of guy.

SOP's are another topic. Cat's right, every company has its own for the same airplane and if you don't follow it verbatim you're going to crash and burn (not really). SOP's change but the meat of them generally remains the same. The concept is to learn them so you can do them automatically - the reality is, there are many many situations for which there are NO SOP's... if all you know are the company's book of rules and can't think outside of the box, what are you going to do when one of those things that never happen, happens??

This can generate some discussion. lol

[SAR_YQQ]

Having never experienced the civilian side of flying - I can only use examples from what I have seen in the CF.

We are in a position to upgrade to Aircraft Captain within 24-36 months on the airframe. Our crews rotate from airframe to posting every 4-5 years. This keeps our experience moving across the country and never really allows for someone to get stagnant in their jobs.

I have been an FO and Captain in the last couple of years and have seen a variety of CRM concepts. There are easy going AC's and those who poison the cockpit. I have seen both.

As an AC, I tried to maintain a calm composure and easy-going atmosphere within my crew. Managing 5 other personalities over the ICS can be chore - just telling them to "shut-up" in flight critical moments is another story. I would expect my FO to know his/her job - although they can equally accept the fact that I will be watching them closely and correcting any faults that stray from SOP.

As an FO, I tried my hardest to backup the AC and keep the crew on an even keel. If the AC was flying, it is the FO who maintains the coordination of any and all SAR occurences. This type of responsibility is shared equally - as we are not seat restricted. In that event - our FO's come off their conversion course thinking like an AC and are given training to ensure that they can command if required.

I am off to Portage La Prairie for my posting to teach students the finer points of multi-engine flying. The entire course has the student in the left seat and has them making 100% of the decisions.

[FlowPack]

I am wondering, which is of higher importance - SOP's or CRM?
I find that crew communication to be nearly as valuable, if I dare say not more so. I find that nearly every flight, something or other happens differently than what is supposed to happen - an ATC interruption when I need to say '1000 feet to go' in the climb. I could talk over the ATC instruction to the PF and stick to SOP's. Or I could just raise my index finger signalling the same message and actually hear what was being said to us. Those sorts of scenarios are endless.
Every company has strong points and weak points in their SOP's. Good communication between both pilots based upon a common procedural framework seems to be the safest to me.

Mechanical thinking seems to glorified above common sense though.

[Cat Driver]

But I am probably preaching to the choir of your church, right?

Yes and no.

A safe professional crew is one in which each crew member is an equal in every way except final authority which rests with the captain.

Personality clashes are a fact of life, however a cockpit is one place where it can really affect safety therefore one must do ones best to operate the airplane in an efficient and safe manner and that is where SOP's come into play......everyone should understand that we fly the airplane with a set of procedures that do not vary from crew to crew.

I believe I was easy to fly with as long as you wanted to fly the airplane because I gave almost all of the flying to my FO's as a reward for putting up with me being so old and grumpy and opinionated and defensive of my trap line.........

[BTD]

.....everyone should understand that we fly the airplane with a set of procedures that do not vary from crew to crew.

To me this is the heart of the SOPs. At a company with around 100 pilots it is next to impossible to change on a day to day basis. For me, I have no problems flying with a "grumpy old Captain" if the SOPs are used. That way I know what is expected of me and how the aircraft will be flown. When people start to stray from the standard it feels like you are playing catchup as an F/O, trying to read minds and constantly doing things differently Captain to Captain. That is when things get forgotten or missed.

SOPs aren't the be all end all. However, I do think they improve safety, because they lead to predictability of the other crew member, and therefore better teamwork. Not to mention they make the F/Os life less stressful from not having to work so hard to be a cameleon.

BTD

[Flybabe]

...they improve safety, because they lead to predictability of the other crew member, and therefore better teamwork. Not to mention they make the F/Os life less stressful from not having to work so hard to be a cameleon

That's exactly what F/O's are at my company. It definitely makes for some stress.

[...]

I have more PIC time than 2nd in command time. The Split is something like 99.99% PIC to 00.01% SIC.

However I found my first Oh time to be more valuable than PIC.

Understanding and experiencing the two crew concept from the right seat has been so valuable for me and in my career, and maybe the most rewarding. Getting the nod to go left seat has only 'upped' my game further.

It was interesting to fly with captains less experienced than I was. It's double interesting to fly with first officers that they thought they had all the right answers...but no real flying experience.

Being an f/o has only made me a better pilot in all aspects especially to better understand the dynamics of 2 crew. It's the captains responsibility to get the job done for the company in a safe manner with ALL things considered. It's the f/o job to double check the captains steps to make sure things were not over looked WITHOUT HINDERING the process. Hindering AND double checking are two different things and is an art to be learned. Captains are actually training pilots for young f/o's. Example is everything.

However, trusting the (experienced) captains experience in such scenarios as in 'weather' for example especially when an F/O has no real experience in weather will help the captain. Listening to an f/o's concerns, and explaining to the f/o why his (PIC's) thought process has concluded it's a go, no go situation makes a good captain.

I will say this in conclusion, some captains have not been in the right seat long enough and some f/o's have been in the right seat TOO long.

Everyone has a different level of exposure to certain scenarios. Being patient with a crew members pace of exposure shows professioanlism.

I don't regret sitting right seat for a second. In fact, I'd welcome it again.

That's my take on this.

[Mustard]

Cat Driver the true SOP is the one your company gives you when you start your training.

And Flowpack SOP or CRM? They go hand in hand. It's like asking what is more important oxygen or breathing?

[Cat Driver]

Allow me to put some perspective on this subject of multi crew operations from a point of view that has been formed over five decades of flying most every device known to mankind.

Multi crew operations are a result of moving into more complex airplanes and operating in a more complex environment.

When I first started flying multi crew operations we had the same problems that are still evident today exacerbated by a culture of far to many captains that were true tyrants who looked on their co-pilots as some inferior form of life that they had total control over.

As the industry progressed new policies and rules were put into place and given acronyms to describe said policies such as PDM , CRM , SOP's etc.

These acronyms basically are just a means to describe common sense actions and thought processes in the operation of a multi crew airplane.

The end result we are looking for is the efficient safe operation of the airplane thus we have dedicated actions laid out for the pilot flying and for the pilot not flying.

A professional crew uses these agreed upon actions as a means to safely operate the airplane and there can be no room for ego or arrogance in a cockpit if safety is to be assured.

I lived through the indignity of being treated like dog shit by tyrants in the left seat, but there were more real nice captains who treated me like an equal and taught me everything they could to better prepare me for the day I would move into the left seat, I remember those pilots fondly and am thankful for having flown with them

I also remember the tyrants and the lesson they taught me, which was always remember how it felt to be treated like dog shit and from that learning process I vowed to never be like them.

Crew co-ordination will make the difference between a safe flight and a disaster, with or without all the acronyms.

[Four1oh]

Here is a question from an old pilot.

SOP's are like religion ten companies can fly the same airplane and they will have ten different SOP's for the same airplane.

How does one know which SOP is the true SOP?

Aviation has become sort of like going to church each one has the only true way.

If you break the SOP of the church they say I will die and go to hell.

What happens if one breaks the SOP's of the company you are flying for, will you die?

The SOP your company follows is the right one. All the pilots at that company all have to be on the same page. Essentially we are getting paid to follow a certain SOP, regardless of previous SOP's from previous companies. Keeping to a standard keeps things safer.

[Four1oh]

In my experience dealing with tyrants, is, the tyrants were typically really good with their hands and feet, but were terrible managers and/or teachers, which is what a good captain is, IMO. A Manager and a teacher... and good hands and feet.

[nimbostratus]

The SOP your company follows is the right one. All the pilots at that company all have to be on the same page. Essentially we are getting paid to follow a certain SOP, regardless of previous SOP's from previous companies. Keeping to a standard keeps things safer.

I agree wholeheartedly with this one. You get hired by a company that has SOP's, you are obligated to follow them. If you don't like them or feel they are unsafe in any way it is up to you to bring your concerns forward and have them changed. If you don't want to contribute to your companies improvement and just arbitrarily follow your own way you are a menace and should move on to another company that is a better fit for you.
If the s$^t hits the fan you can bet the first thing being done by the TSB is that they will pull the CVR tapes and sit there with a set of your company/transport approved SOP's and see that all the calls were made correctly. If they weren't you may have some 'splaining to do. Oh, and if there is a lawsuit involved you have just made the prosecuting attorneys year.

Keep things safe, follow the same SOP's everyone else in the company uses, and all will have an easier time in a complex environment.
That being said there are portions of the flight that are not covered by SOP, climb/descent profiles, TCAS use, Wx radar use etc. that are pilots discretion where I work. I have my own way of dealing with these items and explain my reasoning for the way I do things to my FO's. I then leave these items for the most part (unless I get scared) up to them on their legs.

my 7 cents.

nimbo

[raven54]

Excellent post IABD, some dudes can be real dinks in the left seat, some are excellent....same goes for the right seat. You can learn plenty from both types and seats.

[Driving Rain]

I've always been of the point of view that one of my main responsibilities as a Captain besides making sure the flight is conducted in the safest possible manner is to turn FO's into good Captains.

My radar is always up looking for the officious and the egotists. There's simply no room on a flight deck for excess baggage. The inherent long waiting periods of boredom and inactivity in my occupation are great for weeding out the pricks. Some, you can be subtle with and some, you have to get right in their face. One of the more satisfying aspects of my career is watching pilots who've flown as FO with me turn out to be good Captains. No one is perfect and I don't hold a grudge when FO's feel the need to get in my face over my excess baggage.


The primary question I always ask myself is ...when the chips are down can I count of this person with my life? Not every situation is covered by an SOP in my line of work. Be that as it may, I do follow ours as closely as possible and when I/we do make the odd and rare excursion I get back to them as soon as possible. The SOP is our safety-net.

BTW one of the great things about getting older besides becoming grumpy is the sex gets kinky'er

[youngtimer]

In my experience, the best captains/fo's are those that want to genuinely learn and or teach, while making the job enjoyable with a sense of responsibility and pride. That doesn't include know it all's or know better's without any explanations.
SOP's are there to keep a rigid structure to a flight but not understanding the SOP's or the flight manual that SHOULD (not always) back up the SOP's, can potentially hurt you as bad as not following SOP's. Use them, understand them, challenge them though the proper channels if required but don't go screwing up your fellow pilot just because you don't like them.
As an F/o, the SOP nazi captains most people were scared to fly with were the one's who I learned the most from, as they were the ones who could pull out the flight maual and flip to the applicable sections and explain why we do things or why we're trying to change things. Getting actual comments and suggestions on my line indocs/checks were always way more helpful to me than the old 'good flight'.
As a captain, I enjoyed flying with f/o's who were making the most of every flight in order to improve and take my seat, instead of whining or acting like they already deserved my seat. Questions and challenges are always good signs but silence and dumb remarks don't usually go over well.

[Severe Clear]

This is very interesting, thanks for all the posts. I have to say I pretty much agree with what everyone is saying. Sops are designed to make the cockpit safe and efficient, however what happens in those non sop situations? What happens when the FO notices the captain made a huge brain fart and accidentally turns the plane towards a mountain in IMC? Would the FO say "I have control" and would the Captain relinquish control without thinking twice? How many FO's would think twice about taking control away from the Captain?

I attended a CRM course and this topic came up. It ended up in a yelling match between senior captains and newer FO's. One captain said there is no way they would ever give up control to the FO, even if it meant we crash into another plane, or mountain. To me this is a piss poor attitude. Some FO's actually said they would be scared to take control away from the captain in an emergency situation. But at what point do you take control away. Normally SOP's state that after 2 challenges and no response you assume incapacitation and automatically take control. But then again this does not cover every situation for example an error that requires IMMIDEATE action like a mid air collision. There is lots to lean in respect of CRM and it is near impossible to cover every possible situation.

[Flying Nutcracker]

SOPs block the holes in the swiss cheese, at least to some degree. If you have SOPs it is easier to see the holes in the cheese when someone deviates from the SOP. SOPs are "norms" that make it easier to identify potential hazards. But if you have one captain that constantly is trying to line the holes up there will be a time when the partner can't plug the holes fast enough, therefore allowing a situation to escalate in to a dangerous situation.

Having said that... CRM... if things are communicated properly, there will be time to spot the hole and plug the hole before things get out of hand when there is a "planned" deviation for whatever reason. An SOP is never 100% for every conceivable situation.

I have to agree with an earlier comment. I have never learned as much as when I was an FO! I learned how I wanted to be as a captain, and definately how I did NOT want to be as a captain. Some captains ran their own show, which made me work harder and always second guessing every decision that was made. Not a good relationship! Other captains were really open about what they were doing and did their best to explain the reasoning behind their actions or decisions before they were made. When I was included in a decision I always felt comfortable, knowing why the decision was made and above all else, I was on the same page and had to work less and could help the captain alot better! It was not necessarily the way I wanted to do things, but as long as I felt it was safe...why not?!?!? Let's give it a go! And then I learned from it. Sometimes it worked out better than my way. Bonus!

Some are great, some are not... you have to find a way to get the communication going in a non-confrontational way and admit openly that you need help to keep up with pace. Once you get through, it makes life a lot easier! And safer! And that goes for both FOs and captains, especially the new ones.

FN

[Ref Plus 10]

I attended a CRM course and this topic came up. It ended up in a yelling match between senior captains and newer FO's. One captain said there is no way they would ever give up control to the FO, even if it meant we crash into another plane, or mountain...

I don't know if I'd call it a yelling match, but voices were raised..

I can say I've never flown with a captain that didn't make me feel like I was supposed to be there, and all have made me feel comfortable enough to challenge their decision had I ever felt it was incorrect for whatever reason (I haven't had reason to challenge anyone yet, knock on wood). Despite being a newer FO, I may still have information or other tidbits to share with a captain, and even if I'm only there to satisfy insurance, I'll sure help as much as I can, cause when his (or her) health goes for shit on approach, that insurance satisfier is there to save your ass

[Driving Rain]

I can say I've never flown with a captain that didn't make me feel like I was supposed to be there,

A number of years back I had the opportunity to fly with another Captain where I worked. It was later in the day and all of the crews had gone home for the day. The only two pilots they could get were me
(a capt.) and him. Of course he jumped right in the left seat while I pulled the gear pins and pitot covers. When I finally stowed the ladder and closed the doors and took my seat he turned to me and said ..."Now, don't try to tell me or show me anything because there is nothing you could tell me or show me that I'd care to learn".[/i] We bombed 40 or so loads on the fire. He didn't offer me one circuit. Has night-fall approached and we were headed back to the airport he tossed the log book to me and said.." I'll let you do the landing after you fill in the log book" Of course I tossed it right back at him and said... "That's ok thanks anyway but I can see you like to do everything yourself". After we parked I disembarked and headed straight for my car. .. He yelled after me to help him put the plane to bed. I ignored him and kept walking.
That's how some captains treat other captains when they get the opportunity to fly together. I feel very sorry for the co-pilots that have to spend the summer with him.
CRM is for everyone.

[Cat Driver]

Cheer up D.R. these people are flawed big time personality wise and are basically insecure.

Find him a nice girl with the clap and that will give him something to remember you by.

[Driving Rain]

these people are flawed big time personality wise and are basically insecure.

Remember Pat B at the F fireman. Man he fit that mold. It wasn't him though. The world is full of these people. Their mission in life is to make it hard on everyone.
Once you learn how to handle them they aren't a problem. It's the learning how that kills you.