Are You Serious???

[Colibri]

Date: 2008/07/07
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: Aviation Enforcement
Narrative: A concerned citizen phoned Edmonton ACC to complain about a Cessna 172 doing multiple spins and stalls below 1,000 feet AGL in the vicinity of 10439 178A Ave. over the city of Edmonton. Radar analysis showed an aircraft doing manoeuvres that include sharp turns and losses of altitude in the vicinity of 53 38 32N/1133205W, within 1 mile of city housing. Maximum altitude was 3,400 feet MSL and the minimum altitude was 3,000 feet MSL (approximately 800 feet AGL). The pilot of a Centennial Flight Centre Cessna 172 later confirmed to City Centre Tower that he was doing spins.

[Wacko]

This is why we're all getting paid so little

[SQ]

+1

[linecrew]

Where's Darwinism when you really need it......!

[. ._]

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&ge ... iwloc=addr

It's kinda not built up around there.

-istp

[Doc]

A future VAL captain at play.

[Cap'n P8]

That's low, even for you Doc.

[wxguy]

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&ge ... iwloc=addr

It's kinda not built up around there.

-istp

Keep in mind the image probably isn't current. The image from the University area is about a year old.

[linecrew]

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&ge ... iwloc=addr

It's kinda not built up around there.

-istp

So then it's okay to be spinning a 172 at 800' AGL there (or anywhere)?

[. ._]

No that's too low. What's the rule on that? Gotta recover by 1000 AGL or something?

Anyways my first post here was giving a marginal benefit of doubt. There's always 2 sides to a story. Maybe the pilot's altimeter was busted? And north of there on the map looks like farmers' fields to me.

I could be on glue though.

-istp

[AUGER9]

I think it's 2000agl or what the poh says, whichever is higher. I dunno bout you guys, but I was usually around 4000' when practicing spins. I would like to think they could tell the difference between that and 800', but who knows...

[Hedley]

The AIM says:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publi ... -1.htm#4-3

4.3 Practice Spins
Intentional practice spins conducted at low altitudes have resulted in fatal accidents. All practice spin recoveries should be completed no less than 2 000 feet AGL, or at a height recommended by the manufacturer, whichever is the greater.

Since a spin is an aerobatic maneuver, you might
expect to be charged with CAR 602.27(d) - aerobatics
below 2,000 AGL - or perhaps simply CAR 602.01,
reckless and/or negligent, because the AIM is not
a regulatory document.

I might point out that if you are the holder of a
valid SFOC issued as per CAR 603.67 in respect
of CAR 602.27(d) you may spin below 2,000 AGL.

I enter and exit inverted spins below 1,000 AGL
during my solo airshow sequence. Every solo
airshow performer - well, the serious ones - do.

Inverted spins are much safer than upright
spins at low altitude. If you don't know why,
you don't belong there.

[AUGER9]

But you still have to comply with the POH, no? My 172 poh says recoveries by 2000'.

[stopsquawk]

Inverted spins are much safer than upright
spins at low altitude. If you don't know why,
you don't belong there.

I'm pretty sure I don't belong there, but I'll bite.

Why are they safer inverted?

[oldtimer]

The guy was in fact very close to the built up portion of the city but he was also within the Edmonton City Center Airport control zone and marginally off the final approach path for the LOC B/C approach for runway 16 or the depature path for Runway 34. Should be shot with a big smelly ball of shit for being stupid.

[Colibri]

The guy was in fact very close to the built up portion of the city but he was also within the Edmonton City Center Airport control zone and marginally off the final approach path for the LOC B/C approach for runway 16 or the depature path for Runway 34. Should be shot with a big smelly ball of shit for being stupid.

Yeah that's what I thought as well. I hope it wasn't a dual training flight... but who knows.

[Hedley]

Why are they safer inverted?

Because the rudder is in clean air inverted, and
recovering from a spin is all about stopping the yaw.

e.g. in an upright flat spin, almost the entire rudder
is blanketed by the horiztontal stabilizer and the
elevator (esp with forward stick). Only the tiny
part of the rudder below the elevator is effective.

However, in an inverted flat spin, much less of
the rudder is blanketed - only that part above
the elevator.

Hence, inverted spins require far fewer rotations
to recover, as compared to upright spins. They
can be recovered quite safely at low altitude.

The visuals of inverted spins are often quite
unusual and frightening for a pilot, but do
remember that airplanes do not have eyeballs.
All they can sense is relative wind.

[stopsquawk]

Thanks Hedley

[just curious]

Inverted spins are much safer than upright
spins at low altitude.

For starters, chumley might have been able to see he was over a built-up area.

[Colibri]

Found out the pilot was commercially licensed and was solo. TC has been in touch with him and he was in controlled airspace at the time.

[. ._]

He might have been hypoxic which lessened his decision making ability. Or he's f'n stupid.

-istp

[oldtimer]

Our Great White Fathers minions in the Big Pink Palace on Jasper Avenue should have been able to watch the whole show from the 8th floor. Should have time to draft a whole bunch of new Air Regs to prevent this from happening again.

[flyindart]

What a dumbass. Colibri, where did you find that info out? You workin' for TC or something?

[disengage]

Wow ive heard of some stupid things but this is rediculous...i used to train and fly out of city centre and indeed this pilot was not thinking at all...there is a practice area called WEST PRACTICE AREA west of the city that can be used to practice upper air work involving spins, stalls etc. and if he is a commercially licenced pilot im guessing transport will not be giving him a slap on the wrist!! As for the altimeter issue i couldnt see that being the root of the problem, hope this guy doesnt plan on becoming an instructor!

[Strega]

Wow ive heard of some stupid things but this is rediculous...i used to train and fly out of city centre and indeed this pilot was not thinking at all...there is a practice area called WEST PRACTICE AREA west of the city that can be used to practice upper air work involving spins, stalls etc. and if he is a commercially licenced pilot im guessing transport will not be giving him a slap on the wrist!! As for the altimeter issue i couldnt see that being the root of the problem, hope this guy doesnt plan on becoming an instructor!

I bet he already is!