Kinda beating a dead horse here I know, but....
If you guys/gals want to request descent and are issued the words "Descend FLXXX" then depart your level now, not 15-20 miles later.
I have very few complaints with WJA crews from a control or as a customer standpoint, and there are official channels to follow, but that always requires a flight number which in turn could implicate a flight crew/controller into an investigation depending on who gets their hands on it, and an informal request here might be a better place to start?
Requesting Descent.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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invertedattitude
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: Requesting Descent.
Keep beating the horse Inverted...no one here is going to get offended by constructive comments such as yours. 
Re: Requesting Descent.
Hate to say it Inverted,
But official channels might be the way to go, If there’s something we can do to get along better with Navcan we would like to do it. The issue might be that everywhere else in North America when we request descent about ten miles or about a minute and 25 seconds before we intend to actually depart the flight level, no one ever has a problem with this except the obvious. Not trying to start a regs battle here as I’m more than aware of what it states. As far as the letter of the law goes you’re right, we request lower get cleared to FLxxx we should leave that altitude now, no questions.
However the rest of the continent doesn't have an issue with it so we get a bit lazy and start down when we need to, a la 1 minute and 25 seconds later.
If u pursue official channels we'll get a memo from whoever and guys will start to descend immediately after receiving clearance, don't worry about flight numbers and such being caught up in the mess as I'm sure with the amount of complaints you've been making here about our descents It's not the same crew everytime, so no one on our end will get singled out. So we have nothing to fear in that respect, and I can only assume your controllers don't.
I can however personally guarantee that if u come on here everyday and complain about it that nothing will change and your frustration will build.
So please take it to the official channels and do us all a favor.
Fish
But official channels might be the way to go, If there’s something we can do to get along better with Navcan we would like to do it. The issue might be that everywhere else in North America when we request descent about ten miles or about a minute and 25 seconds before we intend to actually depart the flight level, no one ever has a problem with this except the obvious. Not trying to start a regs battle here as I’m more than aware of what it states. As far as the letter of the law goes you’re right, we request lower get cleared to FLxxx we should leave that altitude now, no questions.
However the rest of the continent doesn't have an issue with it so we get a bit lazy and start down when we need to, a la 1 minute and 25 seconds later.
If u pursue official channels we'll get a memo from whoever and guys will start to descend immediately after receiving clearance, don't worry about flight numbers and such being caught up in the mess as I'm sure with the amount of complaints you've been making here about our descents It's not the same crew everytime, so no one on our end will get singled out. So we have nothing to fear in that respect, and I can only assume your controllers don't.
I can however personally guarantee that if u come on here everyday and complain about it that nothing will change and your frustration will build.
So please take it to the official channels and do us all a favor.
Fish
Re: Requesting Descent.
When I'm cleared to FLXXX I go now. When the controller adds 'at your discretion' it'll be when the computer wants to start down. I didn't think that was an issue anymore.
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Requesting Descent.
I always thought that was obvious. You get a clearance to a new altitude, you depart the old one. Kind of like a vector. You get cleared to fly on a certain heading, I would expect to be yelled at if I waited a minute and a half to start the turn???
Also, if you don't plan on descending for a minute and a half, why request it? May as well wait until you want it.
Also, if you don't plan on descending for a minute and a half, why request it? May as well wait until you want it.
Re: Requesting Descent.
I don't see it being an issue. If a pilot asks you for a decent, it means he is a few miles back of the descent point and would like clearance out of that altitude before you get the computer yelling at you to reset the MCP. As a controller, if you ever had any doubt as to when they were going to start their descent, simply state what you want, ie: start down now or at pilots discretion.
Flying in Canada it seems with 99% of descent clearances contain the words "at pilots discretion". In the US it's just the opposite, when given a new altitude, we descend immediately, the don't use at pilots discretion very often as far as i've seen.
I have found that waiting until the last minute to ask for descent can cause a headache because of someone talking on the radio at length or very busy airspace. Suddenly you find yourself way above your descent path causing us more work (we hate extra work, the coffee gets cold
. If you ever want to know what were planning, just ask. We could also let you (the controllers) know that were starting descent in 13 miles. Have a nice evening.
Flying in Canada it seems with 99% of descent clearances contain the words "at pilots discretion". In the US it's just the opposite, when given a new altitude, we descend immediately, the don't use at pilots discretion very often as far as i've seen.
I have found that waiting until the last minute to ask for descent can cause a headache because of someone talking on the radio at length or very busy airspace. Suddenly you find yourself way above your descent path causing us more work (we hate extra work, the coffee gets cold
. If you ever want to know what were planning, just ask. We could also let you (the controllers) know that were starting descent in 13 miles. Have a nice evening.-
invertedattitude
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Re: Requesting Descent.
Thanks for all the replies guys, I appreciate it.
Only thing I can say is that it has caused a separation issue (not a loss, but an uncomfortable situation before)
On the remarks that the rest of the continent doesn't mind it, I would like to say that just because you don't get barked at over the frequency doesn't mean the controllers don't mind, they are not likely to say something unless separation is/was going to be affected.
410,
I have to admit that at least 95% of your flights that I've worked don't seem to have this problem, but there are still an odd few, and of those few there is a very small percentage where safety has the potential to be affected.
On the comments about most controllers issuing PD here in Canada as compared to the States, that does seem definately true. Some American flights will fly to the airport at cruising level if they are not issued descent and definately rely much more on controller initiated descents than Canadian pilots.
Only thing I can say is that it has caused a separation issue (not a loss, but an uncomfortable situation before)
On the remarks that the rest of the continent doesn't mind it, I would like to say that just because you don't get barked at over the frequency doesn't mean the controllers don't mind, they are not likely to say something unless separation is/was going to be affected.
410,
I have to admit that at least 95% of your flights that I've worked don't seem to have this problem, but there are still an odd few, and of those few there is a very small percentage where safety has the potential to be affected.
On the comments about most controllers issuing PD here in Canada as compared to the States, that does seem definately true. Some American flights will fly to the airport at cruising level if they are not issued descent and definately rely much more on controller initiated descents than Canadian pilots.
Re: Requesting Descent.
[quote="daveg"]I don't see it being an issue. If a pilot asks you for a decent, it means he is a few miles back of the descent point and would like clearance out of that altitude before you get the computer yelling at you to reset the MCP. As a controller, if you ever had any doubt as to when they were going to start their descent, simply state what you want, ie: start down now or at pilots discretion.
quote]
Evidently at least one of the controllers does see it as an issue!!! Maybe an alternative is to enter the new altitude and press speed intervention-start at a 1000' per min descent until you intercept the path, or else wait until you actually want to descend and take your chances!!!
quote]
Evidently at least one of the controllers does see it as an issue!!! Maybe an alternative is to enter the new altitude and press speed intervention-start at a 1000' per min descent until you intercept the path, or else wait until you actually want to descend and take your chances!!!
Re: Requesting Descent.
nothing wrong with going past TOD...at least you don't have to do that silly 250 kts. BS. I like "more work". Some guys get feisty though if they have to think for themselves. i always know the type by how far out from the runway the flaps come out. 
Re: Requesting Descent.
You mean the silly 250 kts that saves us money...you don't like that?
Re: Requesting Descent.
It's really not that hard. If a descent clearance doesn't include the words "pilots descretion" you must leave the altitude immediately. If in doubt, (or a controller has an ISSUE) all we have to do is talk to one another, imagine that. Pretty simple me thinks.
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tripleseven
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Re: Requesting Descent.
How would you know that on the first flight with said person? Ha HA.express wrote:nothing wrong with going past TOD...at least you don't have to do that silly 250 kts. BS. I like "more work". Some guys get feisty though if they have to think for themselves. i always know the type by how far out from the runway the flaps come out.
Re: Requesting Descent.
Would be nice if the technology is sped up and implemented. It is possible for ATC's computer to talk to our FMS and see when we can accept FL400. Well if that can be done I imagine it should be able to see when our FMS tells us when the T/D is starting. Its probably just the typical paperwork that is holding this technology back. Also it looks like the staes will be spending a few billion (20-30) and overhaul their system. Looks like they will be able to issue a constant decent from cruise altitude right to the threshold of the runway all on idle thrust. Something like out RNP i guess. They have tested this system in a simulator for the LAX airport and it has saved approximately 100 gallons of fuel for each landing at LAX. I am guessing it will take forever to implement that system though.
Re: Requesting Descent.
Seems to me that there are a few simple solutions.
1. When you request the descent in advance to avoid the inevitable radio traffic that always seems to happen at TOD, tell him you're requesting descent in X miles so the controller will be able to see your plan.
or
2. Request descent early and start down at a 1000 until your intercept your profile.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy!
1. When you request the descent in advance to avoid the inevitable radio traffic that always seems to happen at TOD, tell him you're requesting descent in X miles so the controller will be able to see your plan.
or
2. Request descent early and start down at a 1000 until your intercept your profile.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy!
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
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invertedattitude
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Re: Requesting Descent.
Good points.
For the record, CAATS our new system does loosely predict where you will start descent based on:
A/C Type, and the flight level that has been put in the machine (Does not re-calculate for intermediate altitudes unless the system is manually updated.)
It is not very useful at the moment, as it is only a predicted guess that factors the winds and a/c type, and in order to display it creates more work than just asking.
For the record, CAATS our new system does loosely predict where you will start descent based on:
A/C Type, and the flight level that has been put in the machine (Does not re-calculate for intermediate altitudes unless the system is manually updated.)
It is not very useful at the moment, as it is only a predicted guess that factors the winds and a/c type, and in order to display it creates more work than just asking.
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complexintentions
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Re: Requesting Descent.
Just a question about the AFDS on the 737 NG's.
Is there not a mode that will put you into an automatic 1000 ft/min descent until intercepting VNAV profile? Not speed intervention, just set the lower altitude and push the button? Or do you have to manually initiate the descent and then re-arm VNAV when you're on the chinese glideslope again? Curious as I have not flown that particular software iteration.
I don't really blame the controllers for getting antsy when someone asks for a descent clearance, receives a descent clearance, and then just sits there.
Is there not a mode that will put you into an automatic 1000 ft/min descent until intercepting VNAV profile? Not speed intervention, just set the lower altitude and push the button? Or do you have to manually initiate the descent and then re-arm VNAV when you're on the chinese glideslope again? Curious as I have not flown that particular software iteration.
I don't really blame the controllers for getting antsy when someone asks for a descent clearance, receives a descent clearance, and then just sits there.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Re: Requesting Descent.
Yes... it flies at 1000 FPM until it achieves the path again. Selected a lower ALT in the MCP and press ALT Intervention. It's remains in VNAV unless you select SPD Intervene or level down the automation manually.
As for Inverted's complaint... I've never seen what he's talking about. Every time I'm flying... or my partner is... we just go down when told, and then when we want, if it's given P/D. Getting a descent in to YQM sometimes is harder than getting a clearance to Mars on some days. Then the Camp near Freddy always gets in the way for achieving a smooth descent and a vector is rarely offered... so we have our own complaints about YQM ATC too.
As for Inverted's complaint... I've never seen what he's talking about. Every time I'm flying... or my partner is... we just go down when told, and then when we want, if it's given P/D. Getting a descent in to YQM sometimes is harder than getting a clearance to Mars on some days. Then the Camp near Freddy always gets in the way for achieving a smooth descent and a vector is rarely offered... so we have our own complaints about YQM ATC too.
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invertedattitude
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Re: Requesting Descent.
Well, it does happen with some crews, and interestingly enough on a side note you shouldn't hear "Pilots discretion" anymore... we've been given instruction to not use those words anymore but to use "When Ready" instead to become more in line with international phraseology.WJ700 wrote:Yes... it flies at 1000 FPM until it achieves the path again. Selected a lower ALT in the MCP and press ALT Intervention. It's remains in VNAV unless you select SPD Intervene or level down the automation manually.
As for Inverted's complaint... I've never seen what he's talking about. Every time I'm flying... or my partner is... we just go down when told, and then when we want, if it's given P/D. Getting a descent in to YQM sometimes is harder than getting a clearance to Mars on some days. Then the Camp near Freddy always gets in the way for achieving a smooth descent and a vector is rarely offered... so we have our own complaints about YQM ATC too.
You mention that a vector is rarely offered into YQM, I find that surprising since it is quite common, your flights in/out of Moncton usually go nose to nose with RJ's out of YQM/YYG and there is no built in lateral separation via routings, so vectors happen more often for YQM than for YHZ which has built in arrival/departure routings, problem being we can't really vector south because of the Camp, so it can on rare occasions can become somewhat restrictive.
Sometimes due to oceanic traffic you have to get through, a vector just isn't a favourable option unless you want to take a 90 degree hook, one of the negative sides of operating at FL410 I suppose...
Re: Requesting Descent.
OK I'll say it again , Inverted, TAKE IT THROUGH OFFICIAL CHANNELS.
nothing will change from your rants on avcanada.
You're probably sick of posting about it and I know i'm sick of reading about it.
please do us all a favor and write it up, no one will get fined, just a memo and hopefully you'll get what u need after that.
Cheers
Fish
nothing will change from your rants on avcanada.
You're probably sick of posting about it and I know i'm sick of reading about it.
please do us all a favor and write it up, no one will get fined, just a memo and hopefully you'll get what u need after that.
Cheers
Fish
Re: Requesting Descent.
Come on, give the guy a break. He sees a problem from his perspective, and wants to pass some information on to others in the industry. Avcanada, while not official, still gets seen by a quite a few pilots in Canada, those ones will pass it on to others.....The Fish wrote:OK I'll say it again , Inverted, TAKE IT THROUGH OFFICIAL CHANNELS.
nothing will change from your rants on avcanada.
You're probably sick of posting about it and I know i'm sick of reading about it.
please do us all a favor and write it up, no one will get fined, just a memo and hopefully you'll get what u need after that.
Cheers
Fish
Your right though, he could violate a few pilots and that would also get the word spread.
Re: Requesting Descent.
I think Inverted just needs more hugs in his life. 
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invertedattitude
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Re: Requesting Descent.
Look I'm just responding to others posts on here, I think as the thread starter it would be not very polite to do so, since they were so kind to respond to my initial posts.The Fish wrote:OK I'll say it again , Inverted, TAKE IT THROUGH OFFICIAL CHANNELS.
nothing will change from your rants on avcanada.
You're probably sick of posting about it and I know i'm sick of reading about it.
please do us all a favor and write it up, no one will get fined, just a memo and hopefully you'll get what u need after that.
Cheers
Fish
If separation is lost then obviously some pilots will get reported and likely fined, however not following an ATC instruction in any case "Could" be cause for a fine from enforcement, I'm sorry I know what it's like to try and put food on the table, and if a non-official post here gets the word out to a few pilots who then spread it on, great!
Wouldn't you rather a friendly heads up as opposed to a fine showing up? Seriously, this board has solved many problems in various areas of aviation in Canada, or at least helped situations for the better.
I have no personal grudge against pilots of any airline, and would be rather upset if by trying to get a message across some pilot lands with a fine...
Re: Requesting Descent.
I'm Sure someone above you in your terminal has an avenue for Dialoge with WestJet, unless you talk to WestJet directly, it's not gonna change.
Just talk to your guy who has the channels.
It'll save you a hudge headache.
Avcanada is a great spot to rant man, but not for enforcing regs, I'd be willing to bet less than 1/8 of Westjets pilots read this stuff and only about half of that 1/8th would ever admit to it.
Get your guy to talk to WestJet, and it will change.
Fish
Just talk to your guy who has the channels.
It'll save you a hudge headache.
Avcanada is a great spot to rant man, but not for enforcing regs, I'd be willing to bet less than 1/8 of Westjets pilots read this stuff and only about half of that 1/8th would ever admit to it.
Get your guy to talk to WestJet, and it will change.
Fish
Re: Requesting Descent.
I applaud the posting of such a topic...that's what Avcanada is for. Discussing aviation issues that affect Canada in a casual style (and also for the occasional rant) Freedom of speech and all that right? Of course the official channels for a regulation infraction can/will be taken if required...I thought we all wanted to avoid that sort of thing. I would prefer that to be the last resort myself. As an additional benefit of such a post, maybe this post will kick some non-WJ pilots in the ass to make sure they follow proper descent etiquette! PLUS maybe the 1/16th of WJ pilots that read this will talk to their coworkers about it, as they are bored and short of small talk enroute Maui.
By the way, I love the positive suggestions this topic has prompted...ie; tell ATC when you would like to descend...and using the ALT INTERVENTION on the B737 to obey ATC, yet not lose your VnAV PATH.
By the way, I love the positive suggestions this topic has prompted...ie; tell ATC when you would like to descend...and using the ALT INTERVENTION on the B737 to obey ATC, yet not lose your VnAV PATH.
