What do employers want in an apprentice?

[rustytools]

O.k. This may seem like a stupid question, but it begs to be asked. What are DOM's really looking for? The reason I ask is because of the lack of response I have had in the past to my resume. I am 32 and have been around the cabbage patch a time or two. I did excellent in school, and have enough time in the shop to have gone through SAIT "detox", that period of time when you learn the difference between what the industry demands from you verses the standards and expectations you received in school. Eg. How many of you use a torque wrench when tightening a B nut? Thought so.

When I compare my experience and background to a punk out of high school, to me the choice seems obvious. Yet as time goes by, I am left with the belief that I should dumb down my resume: cut out the stuff about leadership roles, erase the part on Arctic winter experience, and ultimatly, shut up and go to work for $16.00 an hour. In the end, that is probably what I will have to do, and I will. Just don't give me that crap about "putting in your time." Believe me, I have "Put in my time" more times then I can remember, often in much harder and unforgiving vocations that this one.

So, when your other apprentice runs the tug out of fuel and it's -30 and blowing outside, give me a call because yes, I "do know something about diesels, and after boosting the 24 volt tug with a 12 volt vehicle, you will find that you still have battery posts left.

Until then I think I'll just have to play dumb.

[MZUNGO]

use the kiss rule. try to keep it to one page and only pertinant info. most employers aren't going to care if you were grand dragon of your local space cadet batallion, but one line saying you were a space cadet will be fine.
make sure you have all of your work history that applies to the position as well
M

[Troubleshot]

Man I don't know you from a hole in the ground but reading your post makes not want to hire you...you sound like an individual that is pissed off at the world, perhaps being around "cabbage patch a time or two" has soured you. Also a DOM might look at your resume and say "why is this guy starting over his career path?" You stand to have alot more baggage than eagerness in my professional opinion, I've seen guys like you in the shop before with the "I don't have to prove anything to anybody" attitude because your an older guy that's been the work force for a while... well sorry boss but you have to start all over. period. I may trust you to boost a diesel but you don't know jack shit about about the PT6 so your on the same level as any other apprentice...until you prove otherwise of course.

A punk out of school will be easier to mold than some disgruntled older guy who thinks he knows more than me cause he worked in small engine repair...I seen this before and it is always an issue with guys with lots of non-aviation work experience, and I would feel the same way, it is a tough pill to swallow starting at the bottom.

So PUT IN YOUR TIME---IN AVIATION! and then see where it takes you, you say you've worked in much harder vocations without even getting your first job in the industry...see what I mean about your attitude? You may have broken your back at other jobs but there is no way to prepare yourself for the stress of Aircraft Maintenance, I'd rather have a blister on my hand then sign a ferry permit.

I think many DOM's have come to same conclusions I have.

Good luck in your search.

[rockerboss]

Common sense will only take you so far. Experience in the industry is the important part!

[wingnut]

this is a question that would be best answered by tellyourkidstogetarealjob.

let him have it telly!!

[flyinggreasemonkey]

The only way to make sure you fit into a company is to go in with the mentality that you don't know shit until you've learned it their way.

It doesn't matter how many times you've done whatever maintenance task. You're useless until you do it the way your company wants it done. Your experience is only useful to make sure you do that task very well.

Until you're the man calling the shots, you're someone's bitch.

I honestly do know how you feel, as I'm in the exact same boat. I've literally got over a hundred resumes out there and all I've had is a phone interview that went no where. I'm convinced that "your time" is complete when you've got your license, and no sooner. Until then, you're expendable and have to fight tooth and nail to hold your place in the industry.

I've been burned for having a big mouth and the harsh reality of my insignificance to the industry has set in.
My advice is to sit back, be proud of your accomplishments and be ready to learn.

[plainfixer]

Every single shop you walk into, will put you back to zero on the "time in industry" scale.

Best thing to do: Keep your mouth shut at all times.
Do as you are asked.
Don't bitch or complain when asked to do something.
Don't explain that "you have seen this before" and it wont work, informative comment.

At a certain point, you will be able to bail your boss out of a binding situation. Once these people see that you know your shit, thats the point you will "have done your time".
Then you will move to another shop and the process starts from zero again.

Yes, having a licence and ratings might appear to be the high and almighty end goal. it isn't, thats the starting point.

Find a foot in the door some where, speak to others on the side, do some contract jobs, meet guys on the job, get some advice and see how others got to where they are.
Life is a flow chart, it goes backwards and sideways many, many times.

[scouty-dog]

last two posts nailed it.

as soon as your new meat in the shop, you start at zero. They may do certain things 'wrong' in your eyes, and you will probably do certain things 'wrong' in their eyes. every shop does things differently, and you must realize when to pick your battles. There are shit-hole companies out there, and there are 'by-the-book' companies too. It's your job to learn certain things about both types.

My latest example: One shop I worked for years, DC4 on PT6 fuel nozzle tube orings was a big no-no. I agree, and have not used it ever for that purpose. I did a short stint at another shop, and almost got into a fist fight because I refused to use DC4 on a fuel nozzle change. That's all that certain shop used on nozzle tube orings, and they wanted me to do the same.

Every shop does things different. You go back to the start, do pass 'Go', do not collect $200.

[bombardierfixer]

Go to Avmax they need guys. Just keep your mouth shut and you'll do fine. The key is to say yes to every question asked of you. Its a good place to learn and the people are okay.

[Human Factor]

I was also in your situation (graduated at 31 years old, 2nd career) but tried very hard to keep an open mind and a closed mouth even though my spirit had been crushed by the weight of the working world years before entering aviation. Some days were tougher than others but overall the steep learning curve kept me motivated and interested enough that before I knew it, I was licensed and getting pretty good at my trade. Whatever your history, this is a new direction for you and should be treated as such. You're the low man on the pole and have a lot to learn... the industry is packed with brilliant mechanics, each with their own bag of tricks, so keep your ears open and enjoy the vast knowledge that's about to come your way.

As for where to apply, seeing that you're in Calgary, give Pete Brown at Kenn Borek a shout. Borek was my first gig out of college and unlike many apprentices that spend their first few years sweeping floors and stripping paint, I was changing engines and rigging flight/engine controls in my first week. I learned a ton at Borek and had I not been laid off after 9/11, I might still be there today.

Best of luck in your search!

[Hedley]

At any job, if you want to succeed, always do the following:

Show up on time.

Smile. No one likes a whiner.

Be willing to work extra hours.

Learn from and respect the older guys who have been
doing this since before you were born. There is nothing
funnier than a newbie telling an old pro "how to do it"
so keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Your workplace
is not a new-age sensitivity therapy session.


Basically, kiss ass. If you don't like it, don't work for
someone else, go on welfare and smoke crack, which
is what the government really wants you to do anyways.

[rustytools]

Thanks for all of the great feed back. Even you Troubleshot, just try to keep a few things in mind.

First, this is not my resume. I come to this forum with the expectation that I can say my piece and how I feel about it, and maybe get some good feedback. Do you actually think I would represent my self in such a manner to a prospective employer? Keep in mind this is a POST on a FORUM.

Second, having been "around the cabbage patch" and having "done my time" more then once means that yes, I do have baggage. But does that mean it's all bad? Here is some of the baggage that I carry around from other jobs:
-Know when to keep your mouth shut, and if in doubt, KEEP IT SHUT!
-Show up for work a little bit early.
-DON'T kiss ass or patronize, simply be respectful and open minded.
-Respect your peers, and do anything you can to learn from them.
-You are not special, somewhere there is a broom or a mop with your name on it.
-The only stupid question is the one that's not asked. It took a while, but I am at the point where I would rather look like the village idiot for asking questions(often the SAME question) several times until I fully grasp the answer or instruction, then to screw up.
**Note** The above does not apply when getting directions for a new destination.
-When some one has something to say, stop and listen, and get others to do the same.
-Constructive criticism is your best friend.
-If possible, learn from OTHER peoples mistakes, before they become your own.
-Finally, what goes around, comes around.

Troubleshot, when I say I have done my time at jobs much tougher then aviation, you are right, some of what I was referring to was physical. But dead is dead, maimed is maimed, and the worst, having caused someone else's death, is unthinkable. There are so many ways to hurt or kill yourself or others in todays economy it isn't even funny. When I say tougher, I mean no mulligans, no do-overs. If you screw up or fail to perform, someone might die.

For those of you who might question a move to the aviation industry at the age of 32, I say why not? There are many people changing jobs everyday, and some of us have always loved aviation, so why not give it a shot! What you should be asking is why there are so many bursaries given to students who choose this or that AME school right out of high school. One kid in my class dropped out after 12 months. He had always wanted to be in the R.C.M.P. had worked with them over the summers, just decided to do aircraft maintenance cause his parents would pay for him to go to school until he was accepted into the R.C.M.P.

I know of another who chose AME because it was FIRST ON THE LIST! You are right, us older guys are less moldable, but we also have bills and other responsibilities that a young person might not. Changing careers is a risk and requires a lot of soul searching when your older, but having made up my mind, I want to do it, and I will.

So thanks for all the info. Many of you confirmed what I was thinking, and any advice you have would be appreciated.

[M1guest]

Basically...be humble but assertive. Employers don't want an arrogant apprentice...but they also don't want someone so meek that they don't know when to ask for help.

Get into the shops and start talking and shaking hands with base manangers, DOM's and even the crew on the floor. In a small shop the crew on the floor can often recommend someone that they feel is compatible with the crew to their managers.

Also there are all sorts of "associated" people that can tell you who is hiring - rampies at the Shell and Esso often get a lot of rumors. Also the Snap-on and Mac dealers that circulate around the airport.

There are a lot of operations in Calgary between the International and Springbank...
North Cariboo
Sunwest
Avmax
Kenn Borek
Carson
Bar XH
Airborne Energy
SkyService
Swannberg
Morgan
Air Sprint
CorporatExpress
Morningstar
Air Tindi
Cavalier
Mustang

I'm sure there's more that I can't think of right now...there's all the rotary wing shops too.

Good Luck

[Troubleshot]

Rusty, the best hire is a diamond in the rough...you sound like you could be that guy everyone runs to to get stuff done...whatever it maybe, BUT it's only good if you do it humbly. Trust me if you become that guy you'll wish you kept your mouth shut because you'll be pulled in several directions all the time.

If your a nice guy, fun to work with, and your well rounded...you'll do just fine.

Good luck and really take the info the guys gave you here cause it is all good stuff.

TS

[rustytools]

Once again, thanks for the input. I'll take it to heart; actually I have no choice but to: I have the aviation bug!

Respectfully, RustyTools

[J.P.WISER]

But the questions out there, is did ya get a job yet??? And are you willing to move??

[rustytools]

No aviation job as of yet. It's been about 2 months since I tried. Right now I am busy helping with a family business. I AM willing to move...if the situation is favorable. Some of you might think that I shouldn't bitch if I am not willing to give it my all. I agree. However, having been left hanging before... Friends of mine were approached to move to Yellowknife to work for a certain helicopter company. From what I was told, they were to get 1 month free in the crew houses, then they had to have their own place after that. And no money for moving either. Give me a break! Just to drive there would be over $1000.00 in fuel from Calgary, and that was over a year ago.

I went to Ft. McMurrey for an interview. Prices there are incredible! My potential employer did have a program in place for their guys that helped eat up some rent, but availability there is awful, not to mention waiting 3 months to be off probation so I can qualify. On the other hand, it doesn't matter that the cost of living is so much cheaper in Prince Albert, at $15.00/hr (What I was offered 1 year ago) I don't know If I could pay for my truck, fuel, insurance, health care, Bluecross, etc.

Like I said, I am willing to move, but probably only after a short stint at a company to get the feel of things, so to speak.

RustyTools

[ozone]

Try Airborne Energy. We have about 50 helicopters and 10 fixed wing. You get lots of experience both sides. They also have good benefits and treat people really well.
There is tons of jobs in Alberta in the aviation industry. should be no reason not to have a job the first week of applying.

[Dr.Piper]

Showing up to work is the most important thing I have wanted in apprentices. Plus I dont like apprentices who think they know everything. Because even I dont know everything.

And I always tell my apprentices, if you are not 100% sure about something, dont do it. And if you screw up, dont be afraid to tell me right away, I am only going to find out about it later.

If I tell you how to do something, it probably means that I or someone else has screwed it up in the past and have learnt our lessons.

A good attitude is very important and grades mean squat to me ( as long as they passed).

Thats my sagely wisdom for today.

[pilotdreams]

It doesn't cost $1000 dollars to come to Yellowknife, even a year ago. What are you driving, your grandpappy's tractor? Get your ass up here to Yellowknife, more work here than you can shake a stick at. I drove here in a V8 mustang, Im sure you could do it in a truck.

[Valkyrie_XB70]

You could go my route, and give Bearskin a try out in Ontario. Moneys not the best as an apprentice, but it goes up to a good level. I know how you feel man, I was 32 when I graduated from college, and I had a bit of trouble finding a job too. Mainly because I was trying to find a place that my wife and 2 kids would like to live also.

[DOMPNG]

How's the job search going... how about overseas