Cessna 172 cuts off Lear 60 at YQA Muskoka . . on purpose .

[Tim]

Whether or not the 172 had right of way (which he did initially, since he was established in the cct) is totally besides the point. The very first CAR regarding right-of-way says:

602.19 (1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section,

(a) the pilot-in-command of an aircraft that has the right of way shall, if there is any risk of collision, take such action as is necessary to avoid collision

In otherwords even IF you have right of way, if you see the possibility of a conflict YOU are responsible to give way. Deliberatly turning in tight just to screw with somebody violates this rule. If the dickhead pilots of the Lear are not willing to concede your right of way to you, it unfortunatly becomes their's. The 'notwithstanding' part of the reg makes it pretty damn clear that regardless of who is actually in the right at the start of this situation, NOBODY was in right by the time it was done (assuming all the details given in the original post are accurate)

Just to futhur prove the point that nobody was right, the final item of reg 602.19 states:

10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.

As someone else already said, the easiest and safest way out of this would have been for either the Lear to join the active runway (although a lear in the cct with a few cessnas isn't exactly ideal) or the cessna to extend (the best choice in my opinion). Just because you have right away doesn't mean you can't be polite.

[Liquid Charlie]

Sheeesh -- guys get caught up on regulations and forget about common sense and courtesy -- whatever happened to respect --

[Navajo-dude]

In simple terms, if you get tripped playing hockey, and you then whack the guy who tripped you over the head with your stick, guess who gets the bigger penalty...

[Doc]

Everybody seems to be pushing this "risk of collision", when there doesn't appear (to me at least) to have been any real "risk" at all. Just piss poor manners.

[patter]

What it reads to me as, they don't like the 172, and they are filing lots of CADORS on him, for any old thing. In a frivolous way. Which is what you can do with a CADOR. I like the one where he tells them to listen on the radio. I hear controllers chastise pilots daily. Maintain a listening watch. This guy is just advesarial right back.
Don't think much good will come of it though.

[linecrew]

Sheeesh -- guys get caught up on regulations and forget about common sense and courtesy -- whatever happened to respect --

Exactly..the Lear, out of courtesy and respect, should have commenced a circling procedure to conform to the traffic psttern.

[small penguin]

I have a question here. WHY! Why is everyone siding with the Learjet? Why is everyone calling the Cessna guy the idiot? Where did priority go? Where did right-of-way go? Where did common sense go?! Just cause someone is flying a Learjet doesnt make them any more important, valuable, or above another pilot.

Just because you have right away doesn't mean you can't be polite.

Indeed. But just because someone is in a big shiny airplane they dont even own!, doesnt give them the right to impose themselves on traffic already in the circuit

I cant wait for the day the commercial a-holes get a little respect for the private guys!

[C23flyer]

Please go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong on a couple of points.

1. Sierra Fox is a flight training operator, and therefore we can't be sure if it is the same pilot in all three CADORs (though it sure sounds like the same one).

2. Muskoka only has 18/36 as possible runways for a Lear. It would seem unlikely that the Lear could conform to a C172/182 circuit, flying wide, long, fast etc. When faster aircraft join the circuit it can be confusing for students who don't know what the other a/c is planning to do next..."looks like it might overtake me...it's not supposed to...OMG what do I do next?" If the Lear was able to get down and clear on 36 before the 172 turned a normal final for 18, then there was no conflict, and that was the most expedient and safest thing for the Lear to do. The 172, regardless of ROW, possibly removed that option by shortening its circuit (according to the 182 driver). Could the Lear have worked this out with the 172 driver and still maintained their approach to 36?

3. The CADORs was prompted by the 182 driver. Otherwise this seems like an everyday occurrence...two aircraft on final for different runways with potential conflict, and one having to call it off.

[Hoov]

I have a question here. WHY! Why is everyone siding with the Learjet? Why is everyone calling the Cessna guy the idiot? Where did priority go? Where did right-of-way go? Where did common sense go?! Just cause someone is flying a Learjet doesnt make them any more important, valuable, or above another pilot.

Just because you have right away doesn't mean you can't be polite.

Indeed. But just because someone is in a big shiny airplane they dont even own!, doesnt give them the right to impose themselves on traffic already in the circuit

I cant wait for the day the commercial a-holes get a little respect for the private guys!

Is that you User John Donaldson?

[2R]

Approximately 2 hours later the pilot of the Cessna T182T aircraft phoned YTS FSS with his name and phone number advising that the Cessna 172F had intentionally cut his circuit short to get in the way of the landing aircraft and refused to give way to make a point. FSS had suspected based on position report information and the sudden report on final that this was the case, but due to the fact FSS are not on site at Muskoka visual confirmation was unavailable. Pilot of Cessna T182T says he will make whatever statements or reports to pursue this matter as Cessna 172F did have a student on board when this incident occurred.

If this is in fact what happened then it changes the whole picture.

The Lear had broadcast his position and intentions and the two light aircraft were down wind the Lear would have flown the five miles last reported in less than two minutes........

.........common sense and common courtesy would dictate the two light aircraft could have extended their down wind to allow the Lear to land with no conflict....which would have been in compliance with the rules.

The FSS operator was doing his/her job trying to resolve a conflict.

It should be interesting to see how this is investigated and find out just what did in fact happen.

Common sense and courtesy are not in the mindset of someone intent on being "Dead Right"

[grimey]

Timmins F.S.S. staff attempted to confirm the pilot's intentions when the aircraft was airborne and the pilot advised, "you should listen, I told you the first time when we were taxiing out."

I like the one where he tells them to listen on the radio. I hear controllers chastise pilots daily. Maintain a listening watch. This guy is just advesarial right back.

I don't know why some pilots, ATC, and FSS seem to have trouble realizing that whoever's on the other end may be listening, but could be stepped on by aircraft or ground stations on another frequency, or in the middle of a checklist, or whatever. Why do some people get worked up by "station calling ABC, say again, you were stepped on"? Shit happens, you have to make the same call twice. Move along.

Now if you call the guy 5 times over the course of a few minutes, and he gets back to you and says, "yea, sorry, had the radio turned down", that's different.

[Cat Driver]

The more I read this forum the more embarassed I am to be part of aviation.

The inmates are truly running the asylum in aviation today.

[2R]

The more I read this forum the more embarassed I am to be part of aviation.

The inmates are truly running the asylum in aviation today.

Not as embarrassed as the chappie in the 172 who once he realizes what other pilots think of him .
Let us be a friend to our wayward brother and help him see the errors of his ways ,Only a true friend will tell you when you need a bath .Your enemies will just laugh at your stench behind your back.Let us help him to benefit from our collective wisdom and experience.Let him become a safe and courteous pilot with our kind and gentle guidance.Someone should gently admonish him before he knows grief.

If that fails we kick him in the nuts.

[just curious]

So how many RCO's does Timmins have to respond to these days? I wouldn't remember what some bonehead told me an hour before at the same airport, let alone one of a dozen far away ones.

[grimey]

Two, Muskoka and Moosonee. I don't know what their staffing is like for working the 3 sites at once, though.

[Turkey]

I fly a jet similar to the one in question here. I know the rules in Canada. I should conform with the circuit traffic when on an IFR approach into a VFR airport. My slowest safe circuit speed is 160 kts. (I could slow down further to 140 with gear down and FULL flaps, but that's neither preferable, nor going to make a hill of beans of difference.) Am I to usderstand that some of the people posting in this thread would PREFER that I join the same circuit as them, pass them, and STILL land before them? Does that REALLY make any sense?? I CAN'T slow down. Period. Correct me if I'm wrong, Lear 60 pilots, but I think you fly a circuit even a little bit faster that me.

(Last time I checked, all I have to do in order to overtake another aircraft, is to keep him on my left. Easy. I can do that. In the circuit, at 160 - 180 kts. No problem.) Would that really have made the guy in the 172 any happier? Please tell me not...

[complexintentions]

I have a question here. WHY! Why is everyone siding with the Learjet? Why is everyone calling the Cessna guy the idiot? Where did priority go? Where did right-of-way go? Where did common sense go?! Just cause someone is flying a Learjet doesnt make them any more important, valuable, or above another pilot.

Quote:
Just because you have right away doesn't mean you can't be polite.
Indeed. But just because someone is in a big shiny airplane they dont even own!, doesnt give them the right to impose themselves on traffic already in the circuit

I cant wait for the day the commercial a-holes get a little respect for the private guys!

Whoa! Talk about "little man" syndrome!

I highly doubt the Lear drivers were using their "big shiny airplane" as their reasoning for doing a straight-in. Most likely they were exercising their risk management skills to decide that getting their machine down on the ground and out of the way of VFR circuit traffic, soonest, was the safest course of action. And I agree, completely. A non-radar VFR environment is not where a Lear 60 was designed to be operating, mixing it up with traffic going half as fast. It can if it has to but its stupid to do so if not necessary. A corporate jet has a different mission than a C172, he's not there to practice his circuits. I'm not sure why this offends or why this needs to be explained. And of course commercial interests don't trump regs, but in this day and age they are absolutely a consideration, perhaps the C172 driver is just ignorant of the fuel burns of a bizjet. Or maybe he's just a selfish bastard who truly thinks his eighth circuit is more important. This is the impression given in the CADOR which I believe is why everyone is siding with the Lear.

I've been on both sides of the size-speed equation many times in my career, and I have always given way (within reason) to the larger, heavier, faster aircraft (although now in the B777 I don't much anymore! . Courtesy and professionalism aside, it makes better use of a precious resource called fuel and is safer!

Oh and little penguin...all commercial a-holes were private guys once...but some private guys just remain...a-holes.

cheerio!

[small penguin]

A corporate jet has a different mission than a C172, he's not there to practice his circuits. I'm not sure why this offends or why this needs to be explained.

It doesnt offend. But a small airport is not the place for a business jet to come in and play God (Im not just referring to this senario at this airport)

perhaps the C172 driver is just ignorant of the fuel burns of a bizjet.

Correct me if Im wrong, but I pay my own gas. I doubt very much the pilot of the Lear pays the Jet-A I also doubt the pilot of the Lear is paying a rental fee to fly the plane. So money, isnt a reason for a Lear to impose themselves. If flying is too expensive, stop doing it!

Am I to usderstand that some of the people posting in this thread would PREFER that I join the same circuit as them, pass them, and STILL land before them? Does that REALLY make any sense?? I CAN'T slow down. Period. Correct me if I'm wrong, Lear 60 pilots, but I think you fly a circuit even a little bit faster that me.

(Last time I checked, all I have to do in order to overtake another aircraft, is to keep him on my left. Easy. I can do that. In the circuit, at 160 - 180 kts. No problem.) Would that really have made the guy in the 172 any happier? Please tell me not...

Turkey - no I wouldnt want to fly a circuit with a Lear going 160kts. But if Im minding my own business flying circuits at "my" airport, the least I expect is that when said Lear comes in he finds out what the situation is at the airport (ie: any aircraft in circuit, active runway, etc) and then either state he's going to join active and warn the other aircraft of his speed, or ask/suggest that he land opposite and then go for it. A lear coming in and saying "im landing opposite regardless of what you have to say" isnt the best way to have other aircraft in circuit cooperate

Its a two-way street after all. Give a little, get a little.

[Cat Driver]

The ignorance of some pilots is truly mindboggling, maybe the answer is to ban all light aircraft from flying in airspace that commercial airplanes use....unless you can demonstrate you understand how to safely mix with faster airplanes......maybe private pilot licenses should be only good for flying in special airspace where they can not hurt someone else.

[small penguin]

The ignorance of some pilots is truly mindboggling, maybe the answer is to ban all light aircraft from flying in airspace that commercial airplanes use....unless you can demonstrate you understand how to safely mix with faster airplanes......maybe private pilot licenses should be only good for flying in special airspace where they can not hurt someone else.

With respect, maybe the opposite too should apply. A ban on commercial jets in most ATF/some MF space where GA is predominant until said pilots learn "how to safely mix with "slower" airplanes" Maybe CPL and above licenses should be restricted to controlled airspaces and airports.

[Turkey]

Turkey - no I wouldnt want to fly a circuit with a Lear going 160kts. But if Im minding my own business flying circuits at "my" airport, the least I expect is that when said Lear comes in he finds out what the situation is at the airport (ie: any aircraft in circuit, active runway, etc) and then either state he's going to join active and warn the other aircraft of his speed, or ask/suggest that he land opposite and then go for it. A lear coming in and saying "im landing opposite regardless of what you have to say" isnt the best way to have other aircraft in circuit cooperate

Its a two-way street after all. Give a little, get a little.

That's what I would expect too. But as the jet pilot, I also have some expectations. And the way the dink in this 172 acted, is NOT what I'd expect.

[small penguin]

What would you expect?

[edit] Not that Im condoning what the 172 did.

[Turkey]

That the 172, if nothing else, fly a normal circuit. The Lear pilot is probably pretty good at judging what will work, and what won't, based on 172s flying 172 circuits. (I don't think I'm giving the Lear pilot too much credit here. He HAS flown slower planes before.) What the Lear pilot didn't predict, what that the 172 driver was going to try to teach him a lesson...

I'm not saying the Lear guy was right. In fact, he was in the wrong, according to the rules. But I'm guessing he was just doing what he thought was safe; a straight in final for the opposite runway from the one where a 172 is on downwind.

Do you believe what the 172 pilot did was safe?

[just curious]

The Lear operator's operations manual may specifically forbid circling approaches. Maybe the flying club's forbids courtesy and common sense. Maybe both, I dunno.

Personally, I think I'd just give points to the 182 driver for this whole performance.

[Turkey]

On the other hand...

I fly my jet with another guy who's the biggest, loudest, most arrogant, self centerred, selfish jackazz you or I have ever met on the ground, or in the sky. And he operates COMPLETELY under the assumption that everyone and everything else should get out of his way.

I'd pay money to any 172 driver out there to teach this guy a few lessons that he so so so badly deserves...

There are all types of people out there, flying all types of airplanes. Some of them, you've really got to watch out for...