Canadian Military boosts chopper firepower

[snaproll20]

LH

I could not agree more. Guess I did not figure in the religious aspect.

The problem of course is that some of them want to spread their doctrine abroad and they don't care if it takes centuries to do it. Of course, they may well believe the same of us!!! and I guess that is why we are there. Still, their religion seems to be regressive when it is applied with the zeal we constantly see, and as you have described.

It is amazing that years before the West had any kind of idea, Arabs were studying the stars, creating mathematics, inventing numbers we still use, and practicing medicine, while exploring far afield.
What happened?

[LH]

Unfortunately, Canada has allowed it's military to dissolve in effectiveness to a point where no matter who is in power in Ottawa, it will take many years and gargantuan amounts of money to get it back to where it SHOULD BE for a nation of our size and duties abroad that we have signed onto. Until we reach that point, we have now entered into a 'high stakes game' where we have to be careful how we play or we might have to 'fold' and go home. Our military isn't that large anyway and the 'front-line' personnel who actually 'go in harm's way' are small in number. We can't afford therefore to loose large amounts of equipment like other countries might to any military action or engagement.

AS far as Afghanistan is concerned, the most we can hope for is not winning, but getting it all under control enough to hand the problem over to the Afghan government themselves and extridicting ourselves from a bad, unwinnable situation. Corruption, the poppy and religion reigns supreme in that part of the world and controls everything. Just fighting the Taliban won't solve their problems.

[teacher]

I love the "civilian aircraft" comment, so true.

Will Griffon helicopters soon be part of Afghan equation?

Do not be surprised to see Griffon helicopters deployed to Afghanistan over the coming months.

According to Lou Cuppens, a retired Air Force lieutenant-general, there's a very good chance the highly mobile Griffons will be armed and used as escorts when the CH147 heavy-lift Chinook Helicopters are delivered to our troops early next year in Afghanistan.

Cuppens said it was his understanding that serious consideration is being given to utilizing the Griffon in such a capacity.

The federal government confirmed last week that it was spending $375-million to purchase six Chinooks from the U.S. military.

The move will meet an immediate need for Canadian troops and will help keep them off dangerous and often booby trapped Afghan roads.

"In my view, it has taken way too long to purchase these Chinook helicopters," Cuppens said in an interview.

"When they do purchase them, you can be assured that the Griffon will be deployed beside them."

Cuppens, now with the Air Force Association of Canada (AFAC), helped author a 2007 discussion paper for the organization on the Chinooks.

The paper had three distinct messages:

* CH147 Chinook helicopters will provide a significant tactical transport capability but will also be vulnerable in a threat environment. Appropriate support is required to mitigate this threat.

* To provide an interim capability, Griffon helicopters should be equipped and employed for armed escort/reconnaissance missions to support the CH147 operations.

* Serious consideration should be given to the procurement of a fleet of armed, reconnaissance helicopters, to provide a more permanent and capable solution.

While the Chinook is certainly capable of rapidly transporting troops, logistics supplies and equipment over large distances in a brief time period it, undoubtedly, also has its weaknesses.

"The Chinook, when laden, is not as manoeuvrable as lighter helicopters," further notes the discussion paper.

"Moreover, it has a significant visual, audio, radar, and infrared signature. Because of these characteristics, it is vulnerable to a variety of threats, including small arms fire and anti-aircraft defence systems."

The AFAC recommended that these challenges be addressed through the installation of self defence suites that include door guns, threat warning devices, night vision systems, secure radios, navigation aids and armour.

The use of what is described as "appropriate tactical flying techniques," was also strongly recommended in the AFAC paper.

"Tactical flying techniques would range from 'contour flying' and flying out of weapons engagement ranges, to the use of 'masking' techniques and tactical diversion," noted the discussion paper.

"In hostile environments and where enemy forces have capable anti-aircraft capability, it may be essential to support the CH147 helicopter with responsive armed escort aircraft - helicopters or fighters. Should the CH147 encounter a threat, the escort aircraft could suppress/destroy the threat while the CH147 takes evasive and/or self-defence actions."

Open the door and enter the Griffon.

Appropriately configured Griffon helicopters could perform such tasks as an interim capability, albeit limited in payload and available power, the paper concluded.

"Teaming Chinook helicopters with the Griffons, as an interim step, whether as an armed escort, a reconnaissance helicopter, or both, offers significant tactical advantage, and would enhance CH147 survivability and mission success."

Cuppens described the Griffon as a "civilian aircraft" and whenever efforts are made to make it totally military testing has to occur.

"It's my understanding that the testing for such things has already occurred and it is, again, my understanding that, in the fall this year, we may see the Griffons deployed to Afghanistan."

Aside from deploying Griffons to Afghanistan, Cuppens said, to his understanding, the recommendations listed in the discussion paper will all be part of the Chinook expedition when it eventually arrives in the central Asian country.

"The whole idea of self defence armaments - all of these things that we listed in the paper - have been answered by the Department of National Defence," Cuppens said. "I know for a fact that the modern day Chinooks have this self defence suite onboard. They have radar warning detectors for missiles, they have an ability to see what's in front of them, to navigate in all forms of weather, and have their own armament onboard like a door gun.

"All of those things exist, so it was just a matter of adding that to the shopping cart."

Michael Staples covers the military for The Daily Gleaner. He can be reached at staples.michael@dailygleaner.com

http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/article/375933

[WJflyer]

The USMC have used the older Bell UH-1N Twin Huey's in Afghanistan as a convoy escort helicopter. Mind you, the older Twin Huey had poorer performance in hot and high conditions than the Bell 412's.

[teacher]

Allies to help protect Cdn. Chinook helicopters
Updated Sun. Aug. 17 2008 1:23 PM ET

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Canada's NATO partners are being asked to ride shotgun on rented Russian-built transport helicopters and newly purchased Chinooks once the air force takes possession of them in Afghanistan, says a senior Canadian military planner.

Both the U.S. Army and Dutch forces have operated armed escort helicopters out of Kandahar Airfield since 2006.

And the allies will be asked to protect the Canadian transports, says Lt.-Col. Stan Grabstas.

The decision potentially puts to rest rampant speculation that a flight of specially-modified CH-146 Griffon utility helicopters, which have been given weapons and extra sensors, will be deployed to the war zone.

"We've asked our allies to provide any of the escort requirements for our Chinooks and or possibly the charters in theatre," Grabstas said in a recent interview with The Canadian Press.

"So that capability that the Griffon might fulfill should be addressed by NATO."

The federal cabinet, which has the ultimate authority when it comes to agreements and deployments, has apparently yet to sign off on the proposal.

The details of the arrangement are still being worked out with NATO air planners, said Grabstas, who directs support and specialist plans for the military's strategic joint staff.

Not deploying armed CH-146s overseas means they would available to protect the 2010 Vancouver Olympic Games.

Speculation that the Griffons would be deployed abroad peaked late in the spring when the federal government awarded a $25.9 million contract to L-3 Wescam Inc., of Burlington, Ont., to install an electro-optical and infrared sensor system on as many as 19 helicopters.

The air force has also conducted trials with armed Griffons, which are essentially civilian Bell 412 helicopters modified for military use.

Transport helicopters, such as the CH-47D Chinooks, are vulnerable to attack by ground fire and rocket propelled grenades when operating in war zones.

The air force has at various times over the last two years toyed with the notion of asking for attack helicopters, such as the American AH-46 Apache, to act as escorts for the medium-to-heavy aircraft the Tory government had already committed to buy.

Defence sources say the army enthusiastically supported the idea, though it lobbied for the A-1 Cobra gunship, used by the U.S. Marines.

But the idea was shelved because attack helicopters are notoriously expensive to buy and maintain, especially for an air force that's been struggling to gets its Sea King replacements delivered as well as to manage fuel costs.

The head of the Senate security and defence committee says the cost of providing the capability pales in comparison to the potential of lives being lost.

"Did you ask them how expensive Canadian lives were?" asked Liberal Senator Colin Kenny, chair of the committee.

"I'm appalled that the government is not moving ahead on its own attack helicopters that would ensure we can move independently as a nation and bring our Chinooks into hotspots and difficult landing areas.

"To me it's fundamental that if we're going to have half the capability, which is the Chinook, then we should get the other half of the capability, which is an attack helicopter."

The Canadian military, which has long relied on allies for a variety of transport and combat capabilities, has been striving for more independence in the last few years.

After a series of embarrassing stories about Canada's inability to move troops and equipment on its own, the Conservative government invested billions in four heavy-lift C-17 transport planes.

But there is a degree of political sensitivity at work in the reluctance to buy attack helicopters, which stand in contrast to the image of Canada as a peacekeeping nation.

Kenny dismissed the notion as hand-wringing.

"You've seen the ramp ceremonies for one or two soldiers, can you imagine what a ramp ceremony for 35 people would be like?" asked Kenny.

"If people are offended by the name attack helicopters, we can pass a rule and call them protect helicopters. These helicopters protect the 25 to 40 souls on a large transport and get them alive from point A to point B."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... hub=Canada

[WJflyer]

You have gotta love Senator Colin Kenny... a straight talker and knows essentially what he is talking about. One of the few allies that there is of the Canadian Forces in Parliament.

[Four1oh]

sorry, I can't resist...

GET TO THE CHOPPA!

[teacher]

That's a lot of helicopters!! I wonder when if ever an armada of that many Canadian forces helicopters have flown together.

28 GRIFFONS EARMARKED FOR THE 2010 OLYMPICS

Military and security planning for the 2010 Olympic Games in British Columbia is still in its early stages. But one of the things that crossed my desk recently are the numbers of Canadian Forces helicopters that could be involved. I’m told at this stage 28 Griffons will be assigned to the Games for security duties. (With a year and a half still to go I'd expect that number to change).

Now of course, a number of those Griffons will be on standby for JTF2, which will be discretely waiting in the wings to respond to any major security threat. Others will be used for surveillance.

The Air Force has launched the Interoperable Griffon Reconnaissance Escort Surveillance System (INGRESS) project will acquire 19 electro-optical/infra-red sensor systems to be installed on the helicopters. Sixty-four Griffons are to be modified to carry the equipment. (The first delivery of the systems would be in November. The final delivery would be by the summer of next year. Bell Helicopter in Mirabel would be installing the systems on board the Griffons.)

The Griffons outfitted with the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance package will be ready to go for the Olympics.

But those I was talking to in the Air Force world made an interesting point. Twenty-eight helicopters means at least 28 full Griffon crews. That’s a lot of crews and pilots and one reason - it has been suggested to me - that Griffons aren’t going to be sent to Afghanistan any time soon to fly escort for the Chinook helicopters the Canadian Forces will be using. As you recall, Canada is now looking to its allies to supply escort choppers for the used Chinook Ds the Canadian Forces will be operating in Kandahar in 2009.

The other bone of contention in regards to the Olympics is that local helicopter firms in the Vancouver and Whistler area are ticked off because of flying restrictions that will be placed over a number of areas. They say that will cut into their business at a time when business should be very very good.

Cheers David Pugliese

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacit ... mpics.aspx

[teacher]

I came across this article today:

A Modest Proposal — An Armed CH-146 Griffon for Kandahar?

Of late, Chief of Air Staff, LGen Steve Lucas, has been musing about tweaked CH-146 Griffons with upgraded “ transmissions and engines” to better suit them to hot and high conditions. This may be
a reference to the US UH-1Y upgrade with its Blackhawk- type engines and totally new rotor system. But, the CAS was talking about an interim “escort” helicopter. Do they need all that power?

‘A Few Good Men’ (and their Helicopters) as a Model
It is true that the Griffon is far from ideal for hot-and- high but not that it was undeployable. Until July 2006, US Marines flew convoy escort duties from Kandahar Airfield in similar UH-1Ns. These USMC Twin Hueys, despite being even less powerful than a Griffon, were heavily armed. [1] So, why were the Marines’ UH-1Ns able to operated from KAF, while local conditions were judged too hot-and-high for the CF? The answer must be in procurement politics for there are no major technological hurdles preventing CH-146s from deploying.[2]

An Interim-Interim Solution for Armed Escort ?
With an appropriate sense of urgency, Canadian helicopters could be escorting CF ground troops in Afghanistan now. Much of the UH-1N’s 1970s vintage gear is already in the Griffon mission kits. To make the Griff a more efficient escort, its infra- red sensor could be nose-mounted (to free-up its port pylon). With a crew of only four, the Griffon should be able to mount an armed escort mission from KAF even if fitted with kevlar armour seats, floor panels, etc. Not ideal but at least the troops get top cover and eyes-in-the-skies.

ARH-146 Griffon Plus – Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter with a Canadian Twist?
Jim Dorschner [3] proposes a more intensive Griffon upgrade which would allow them to also perform the role that the CAS really wants – an armed reconnaissance helicopter gunship to escort CF Chinooks.[4] The concept involves tranferring the entire sensor/armaments package [5] from the prototype Bell ARH-70A into the Griffon airframe. Testing could occur in parallel with the ARH-70A to reduce the test curve and minimize expense. A prototype “ARH-146” conversion could be flying within six months. This program could be combined with a fleet-wide mid-life overhaul incorporating all Bell 412 upgrades. [6]

http://www.casr.ca/mp-ch146kandahar.htm

[sky's the limit]

Spending a considerable amount of time flying in Chinooks, Blackhawks, and Huey's over in Afghanistan earlier this month and last, here is my take.

The Chinook is a BIG, fast, noisy helicopter. The best defense it has against attacks is speed. The 412 is slow. Very slow. The Americans sometimes escort Chinooks with the Kiowa, the pilots DREAD those missions as they are flying in the neighbourhood of 50kts slower. The Chinook has to slow down about 10-15kts when escorted by either the Apache or the Blackhawk, but they are still able to move around at about 140-150kts. The 412 cannot do this. A Chinook is a VERY large target, having it hang around any longer than necessary is a bad idea.

This idea of the 412 is bad, there's no getting around it. The problem is, we don't have any other options, unless we rely on NATO pool assets for coverage (and our Chinooks will be in that pool as well, used by all), we will be restricting them from the start. The problem is, the pool is insufficiently equipped, so everyone is scrambling for air assets, FW or helicopter. Assets are assigned by priority.

Can we get it done with the 412? Sure, just, but it is a vastly inferior option to other forms of escort. Kandahar is low altitude in Afghan terms, but it is extremely hot. Some of our FOBs, and those of other nations we will be supporting are not as low as Kandahar, this will limit these machines. The Kiowa's are limited all year, and in summer the Blackhawks which are a vastly more powerful machine, are limited too. When you start talking about the North, it just gets worse. The 412 will not function up there in summer.

This is in keeping with our inability to provide our troops with the adequate equipment - it's taken us 7yrs and 103 lives to attain helicopter support - this is unacceptable. Our guys still live in tents.... Even the press gets better treatment.

That we are there at all is mystifying to me, political in nature, and the reality on the ground is vastly different than our publicly stated goals - this is obvious after about a week in-country. We are being fed a line, and the public has had little choice but to accept it, as the press has abdicated its responsibility to inform us. We are not winning in Afghanistan, not even close. In fact, the word "winning" should be banned from these discussions as it is so inappropriate to describe what is going on. NATO troops cannot leave a Base, any Base, without full escort and convoy, even then they are ineffective in this type of war. Soldiers who had pulled three tours there asked me "what's Afghanistan like?" when they heard I'd been out and about on my own....

We are there to secure a very important chunk of property between Iran and Pakistan, in close proximity to China, India, and Russia, and maintain a battle ready NATO force. That is it, in black and white. Unfortunately our stated reasons for being there evade the truth of the matter as it doesn't play nearly as well to the public.

Next spring' fighting season promises, by all accounts, to be an ugly one. We are going to loose helicopters, be prepared for it. The Chinook squadron I flew with had lost a significant number in 2008, and and the Blackhawks fared worse. I don't want to think what will happen if they start really targeting our 412s.

As one special forces guy told me, "In Iraq, they run. These guys fight - hard."


stl

[petpad]

Thank you stl for your excellent report, as always, and your openess on what is of little surprise to most of us. I too have friends there now and more to go in the near future. I too am very worried about the Chinook vulnerabilities. The Griffon may be good enough to patrol the Olympics in 2010, but not as good to protect our interests where you are now. For those wishing to read more about fascinating and sad stories about Chinooks in Afghanistan, go to http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/ and read the Afghan ops reports. That is the best Chinook site on the web too, but I assume many have been there already.

[Shiny Side Up]

My question would be that if getting our own propper escort helicopters is too expensive why don't we lease the services of some?

We already lease Air-to-air refuelling services, Heavy airlift services, and now we're even leasing helicopter transport in the specified theatre of operations as a stop gap until we can get our own. Our government needs to swallow some pride to protect our boys, or at least like Rick Mercer says: "back em up with the gold card". We have a ton of allies who do have attack, wait sorry, "protection helicopter" capability. Surely we have some tracts of land they can borrow for the service of some. If none of them will help, I'd still say we get the Russians to lend us the use of some Mi-24s, or just outright buy some of them, since they probably have several hundred of the things mothballed somewhere, which as of yet is still probably the best machine for the job, its fast, armored and packs a punch and proven in the area we'd be using it in. If the Russians won't give them up, then there's a dozen nations who would love to get into NATO who probably would for our good word on getting them in.

At the very least maybe we could hire some of these Russians who had experience there to give our people a good insight on what they're up against.

[sky's the limit]

My question would be that if getting our own propper escort helicopters is too expensive why don't we lease the services of some?
I'd still say we get the Russians to lend us the use of some Mi-24s, or just outright buy some of them, since they probably have several hundred of the things mothballed somewhere, which as of yet is still probably the best machine for the job, its fast, armored and packs a punch and proven in the area we'd be using it in.

Our helicopters will be going into the ISAF pool, to be drawn on by whomever has the greatest need, sometimes us, sometimes others. In return, we are able to place a better claim to those pool assets.

The Poles are using the MI-24 Hind already, and while out on a medivac mission two or three days into my trip, we were buzzed by a couple Hinds several times.

Being old enough to remember the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the late 70's and 80's, it was one of those moments you just shake your head and wonder, "how did I get here?" Never thought I'd be standing in the Afghan desert with a Hind screaming over me a 50ft.... Lol As one of the medivac pilots said to me, "I'm not sure it's the best policy having that aircraft flying over here, it comes with some pretty strong symbolism... ...not exactly a 'hearts and minds' tool now is it?"

The Chinook is by far the most capable "lift" helicopter in that theatre, but it needs to be used in certain way in order to achieve success, even the Americans are having issues there with the odd Kiowa escort. All I know is the 412 is not a good option, but it is the only one we have at the moment if we choose to add "escort" helicopters to the pool.

stl

[sky's the limit]

Bump...

This is an important issue, especially as it sheds some light on the process within which we are fighting over there... Thought there'd be more interest on this topic?

stl

[CD]

There were also two pages of comments over on this thread at the end of last month that may have split the attention of folks:

Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan

[sky's the limit]

Oh yes, I remember that one... been a bit out of the loop..!

stl

[CD]

Dec. 15, 2008

Technicians prepare Griffons for theatre

By 2Lt Dave Andrews
1 Wing A3 Ops Task 3

ST. HUBERT , QUE. - Tactical aviation in the Canadian Forces is getting the opportunity to prove its mettle in theatre by putting its training to the test in Afghanistan.

After the Minister of National Defence announced in November that Canada would deploy eight CH-146 Griffon helicopters as part of the Joint Task Force Afghanistan (JTF-Afg) - Air Wing, 1 Wing began identifying the aircraft to be re-configured and modified - essential battle-ready.

With crews already battle-ready, the aircraft also had to be prepared. And for this, the dedicated team of maintainers - regular and reserve force - at 438 Escadron tactique d'hélicoptères (438 ETAH) in Saint Hubert Quebec have worked non stop to ready the aircraft for theatre.

"The methodical process used to carry out the work looks like an assembly line," said Captain Francois Langlois, 438 ETAH Squadron Aircraft Maintenance Engineering Officer. "Every station is tasked with an assignment which reduces the down time and accelerates the modification process."

The modification line at 438 ETAH was tasked with the job of preparing the Griffons for deployment by modifying and installing mission kits on them, which are required for operational activities overseas. The technicians are removing equipment normally used domestically but deemed unnecessary in theatre, trading excess weight for personal aircrew protection.

"It will provide the necessary protection and aircraft survivability required for the types of operations to be accomplished [in Afghanistan]," said Capt Langlois.

The Griffon will act as escort aircraft for the recently acquired CH-147 D Chinook helicopters. The Griffons and Chinooks directly support the new air capabilities which were conditions set out in the Parliamentary motion March 2008 extending Canada's military mission in Afghanistan until 2011. These air resources were one of the recommendations of the Independent Panel on Canada's Future Role in Afghanistan, headed by the Honourable John Manley.

"The personnel of 438 ETAH take pride in their contribution to this particular operation. It gives us great sense of accomplishment as well as our share of participation in the mission to help protect our troops operating in Afghanistan," added Capt Langlois.

Wildcat maintainers: “Ready as Requested”

[Shiny Side Up]

Being old enough to remember the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the late 70's and 80's, it was one of those moments you just shake your head and wonder, "how did I get here?" Never thought I'd be standing in the Afghan desert with a Hind screaming over me a 50ft.... Lol As one of the medivac pilots said to me, "I'm not sure it's the best policy having that aircraft flying over here, it comes with some pretty strong symbolism... ...not exactly a 'hearts and minds' tool now is it?"

The symbolism of the machine is precicely the reason its the best for the job, the mere presence of it as an escort would probably be a pretty huge discouragement to any would be attackers. Of all the air support that was present previously in Afghanistan, the fighters there feared the Hind the most.

From what I've heard, some of the biggest praise for the Canadians in Kandahar comes from the fact that we've got the best port-a-johns and sanitation possibly in the whole darn country. Maybe we can borrow the Poles machines for an exhange program with a lot of TP?

[sky's the limit]

The symbolism of the machine is precicely the reason its the best for the job, the mere presence of it as an escort would probably be a pretty huge discouragement to any would be attackers. Of all the air support that was present previously in Afghanistan, the fighters there feared the Hind the most.

That is of course if you subscribe that the best policy is one of aggression. I personally no longer buy that argument for a whole variety of reasons, but to keep this discussion somewhat on course, I'll simply it put this way: we cannot sustain an aggressive war there. Not politically, and certainly not financially. The Taliban and other interests(yes there are Nationalists who don't want us there either) can fight like this for a very long time to come - decades if need be, we cannot. Trying to "win" this war with soldiers is using the wrong tool for the job. Ergo the Hind and its symbolism is somewhat counter-productive if we are hoping to turn this Afghan adventure into something the West can sustain.

In order to do that, less is more. We won't win against an idea with guns. We can win against an idea by changing that idea - force is simply not working. Being there has made that abundantly clear. If it were a matter of just wiping out the Taliban militarily and "winning," we'd have accomplished that a long time ago. The subject of the resistance to our occupation is a multi-layered and complex one. Using a blunt instrument is not the way to advance - that is if you believe we are actually trying to "help," which I also no longer believe to be the case.

So, regardless of what firepower we bring, or the Americans bring, we will continue to lose this conflict. I'm reasonably convinced the powers that be know this, and are simply happy to let it continue for a variety of reasons. Strategic importance not being the least of them.

The Hind just serves to enforce an idea that we are there to occupy, which frankly is hard to argue with.


stl

[Shiny Side Up]

I would only say that the Hind is the best thing for the job if we are merely talking about protecting our soldiers if we are going to persist in the idea of putting them in harms way. An armed version of the 412 is only going to be a stop gap measure, which if we were sending over to hope that our good will and intentions were the key, we might as well forget the M134s and send them painted white.

As to a solution to making Afghanistan something the west can work with, we're looking at a far more ancient and larger problem that no ammount of soldiers and guns are going to solve. No ammount of money is going to change what is viewed as the "problem" in that part of the world - the problem being that the people there don't subscribe to the western ideals that the collective "we" wish they would. The very fact that we're sending our boys and girls over there is an aggressive stance, whether they have guns or not. Its saying that the collective "we" want to change something over there, no matter what type of kind and generous cover that we might try to clothe it in. The thing is that they're not beating around the bush when they give reply to that change and it comes from the barrel of a gun. Its the same method they've used to resist that change since the days of Ghengis Khan.

Personally, I'm just at the point of where I don't believe the changes we would like to occur over there can be made. I know there's a lot of people doing a lot of good work to make that difference, and I would simply push to do whatever needs to be done to keep them safe.

/end rant.

[CD]

First of 8 armed Griffon helicopters arrive in Kandahar to support Canadians

20 Dec, 2:23 PM

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - The first of eight armed CH-146 Griffon helicopters arrived at Kandahar Airfield on Saturday.

The Griffons, which have been given extra sensors and Gatling guns on top of their existing side door machine-guns and armour plating, will provide escort and protection for the larger Chinook transport helicopters.

The lumbering Chinooks are more vulnerable to attack by ground fire and rocket-propelled grenades, so they typically travel with smaller, armed escorts like the Griffons.

The Griffons will also give air cover to ground convoys, and will be on standby to evacuate battlefield casualties.

The commander of Canada's air wing, Col. Christopher Coates, says the Griffons may also be used to spot roadside bombs, which have killed more than half of the 103 Canadian soldiers lost in the Afghanistan mission.

"We can avoid areas where there are known IED (improvised explosive device) threats," Coates said.

"Some of the Griffons may be used in other roles like helping spot IEDs or other activities on the ground, surveying convoys as they move."

Acquiring battlefield helicopters to move troops and supplies around Afghanistan was one of the conditions set down for the extension of Canada's military mission in Kandahar to 2011.

[Nark]

To repeat what STL said, the Griffon is slow and under-powered. Not suitable for an escort mission.

I've seen, and been at the mercy of an IED, if a helicopter crew can spot an IED from the air, they deserve a Navy/Victorian Cross.
(it is nearly impossible to do) Col Coates is spinning this to the Canadian public, because he wants a shiny new toy in the fray.



My experience with the Blackhawk has given me an awesome impression. In our theater, the Dustoff (medivac) blackhawks would be escorted by AH-1 Cobras. The HH-60's out ran the AH-1s by nearly 30 knots. I have to give the Blackhawk's crew a lot of praise because in one incident, they risked no cover for several minutes to pick up X amount of Marines after a brutal IED ambush. The X amount of causalities wouldn't have fit into a Griffon.

[sky's the limit]

I've seen, and been at the mercy of an IED, if a helicopter crew can spot and IED from the air, they deserve a Navy/Victorian Cross.
(it is nearly impossible to do) Col Coates is spinning this to the Canadian public, because he wants a shinny new toy in the fray.

Hey Nark,

I spotted an IED on the road from Kandahar North... it had just gone off... A rather intense experience I was not expecting to have. This one took out a bridge, and we circled around for a while watching the aftermath. The Dust Off guys came in to evacuate a couple casualties.

As for Colonel Coates, I attended the Standing Up ceremony for his new command. He seems a reasonable guy, but the sales job being given to the public is unfortunately unrepresentative of the real situation on the ground. His is a product of the military, through and through. This is not a question of "winning the war," as the Colonel's Boss, Brigadier General Thompson said in his ridiculous speech that afternoon, but a question of keeping our men and women somewhat safer by reducing ground convoys in favour of Chinook loads to resupply the FOB's. The speech was something straight out of 1917 before the boys were sent over the edge of the trench.

Having spent many hours flying with the Dust Off boys and girls in the Blackhawk, I have to say I'm impressed with that platform. It seems to do a commendable job, even though it was not designed for a theater like Afghanistan. While they do have a few issues in the summer, up high, overall it is an excellent, and well designed platform. Unfortunately they wouldn't let me fly... Even more unfortunate is that we don't use them here in Canada.

stl

In this photos you can just see the dust from the departure of the Dust Off Blackhawk.

[W5]

PICTURE: Fresh details emerge of Taliban attack on UK Chinook

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... inook.html

[Nark]

STL

Before it goes off, before!!!

Although you do deserve a medal or two for putting yourself in danger when you could have sat back and watched from afar.

Can't say it enough, kudos.