Forced approach training

[GilletteNorth]

from a recent AOR:
South Glen Garry County - north of Highway 401
Summary description/Description sommaire: Report received from OPP. GZSN was practicing forced approaches and was unable to restart the engine. Aircraft landed and then flipped over in a wheat field. No injuries.

question: Is it normal to turn off the engine while doing forced approach practise? I remember in my training we just pulled the power back and turned on the carb heat. Has that changed?

[Adam Oke]

I personally have never been taught forced approaches by actually turning the engine off.

Bad enough pulling it to idle and doing the occational "engine warming". (I always wondered how effective engine warming every 500ft is). I can only imaging what continuous "engine out" practice would do with regards to shock cooling.

[valvelifter]

My instructor once turned off the fuel flow valve on the 150 without me noticing. I had ~30 hours and never believed my instructor that an engine could actually stop in mid-air... While enjoying the scenery in Montreal's South Shore one day, 2,000 ft ASL, he pulled that one on me and once I noticed something was fishy, I increased the throttle, until there was nothing left. Then I just gave my instructor a really blank stare and he told me to start my procedures. I quickly got the engine started once again. I agree it was probably not the best thing to do but it sure put me in my place. Today I look for suitable landing spots instead of just admiring the scenery out there, thanks to him.

But I never practiced forced landings with the engine powered down. I felt 2,000 ft ASL was too low, so I would probably object if my instructor made me perform something like that.

I find it's safer to play pretend and go through the motions.

[Rockie]

There is no conceivable need to shut down your only engine to accomplish any kind of training whatsoever. By doing so you have willingly created a real emergency situation until such time as you get it going again, and you better hope to hell you do.

[Old Dog Flying]

Pulling the mixture was one of the idiot tricks used by a few TC inspectors during flight testing. Dumb as a sack of hammers. A friend was going for his CPL test and this bozzo pulled the mixture...OAT -25*C...the young guy pulled off a perfect landing on a road, got help from a nearby farmer to reheat the engine and took off back home with the TC guy standing out in the cold...dressed in street clothes on the bald-assed prairie with a good wind chill.

This routine has caused a number of accidents which have resulted in fatalities. On a recent PPC ride to renew my aircraft insurance, I briefed the instructor that if I saw his hand move toward the mixture, he had better have really good medical coverage.

In 38 years of instructing, I have never shut the engine down to simulate a sailure.

Barney

[MichaelP]

Then there's the Piper going into Las Vegas North, carb heat hot, and full rich mixture, the engine stopped!
There are times where full rich, and hot air will kill an engine on a warm day and high density altitude.

In the above incident did they actually shut the engine down, or did it fail to respond?
This was an OPP report and not a TSB report, and so the engine's failure to restart might be that it failed to produce power and not that it was actually turned off.
Let's wait for the TSB report.

[AdamB]

The engine was NOT intentionally shut down, it failed during a forced landing excercise.

[I Я Instructor]

Warm the engine.... often!

[Hedley]

Intentionally stopping the prop (single engine aircraft)
is a very risky maneuver for most pilots in most
circumstances.

I have done it a few times, but only overhead a very
quiet uncontrolled airport. I don't really recommend
it for most people.

[niwre]

because most of us don't do our approaches inverted, blindfolded with both arms tied behind our back j/k


I had an instructor do that to me (stop the prop) while all the while saying a student will do that to you during my class IV training.... im sorry but if I get that far behind a student I don't have any business training. I'll either switch the fuel selector to L or R if I catch a student not checking the selector but never intentionally off on a perfectly good engine.

[_dwj_]

A lot of engines are very temperamental when it comes to hot starts. I've seen quite a few pilots cranking for over 30 seconds, backfiring, etc. trying to start a hot engine on the ground. I wouldn't want to do it in the air!

[iflyforpie]

Had it demonstrated to me over the airport during my instructor training (by pulling the mixture, windmilling prop). I've never felt the need to demonstrate it to anybody else.

[Pete]

If you had an actual engine failure, what are the odds of surviving? Has anyone actually had to put it down into a field/road/trees? If your in a 172, you plan the right approach,secure the engine, into say a long wheat/straw field (dry or wet) how good are your chances?

I ask because I read a stat saying like 120 people die every year from forced approaches...my thoughts are poor planning...I dont know.

[_dwj_]

If you had an actual engine failure, what are the odds of surviving? Has anyone actually had to put it down into a field/road/trees? If your in a 172, you plan the right approach,secure the engine, into say a long wheat/straw field (dry or wet) how good are your chances?

I ask because I read a stat saying like 120 people die every year from forced approaches...my thoughts are poor planning...I dont know.

Here is my view on this (and I admit I might be completely wrong, so feel free to correct me)...

It really depends on the plane, and in particular the stall speed. Research shows that the lower the stall speed, the greater the chance of surviving a crash. If you're flying something like a 172, and you are wearing a harness, and you're landing in a field (not the side of a mountain or a forest) I would guess you're chances of survival are well over 90%.

A while ago I landed on a pretty bumpy grass strip which had 3 foot tall grass in a 172, and it was pretty easy and safe. You basically stop in about 100 feet or less. Of course we did have to mow the grass before taking off again. As far as I can tell (never tried it), most wheat fields have shorter crops than this and they're usually flatter/smoother too due to being tilled every year.

Of course things will go badly if the field is waterlogged, or if you hit a fence or power line or cow, etc. But if you've picked your field well you should hopefully avoid most of these pitfalls.

I think the research shows that most engine failures are not fatal. Have a look on AOPA's air safety foundation website and there should be more info.

[Grey_Wolf]

I had an instructor do that to me (stop the prop) while all the while saying a student will do that to you during my class IV training.... im sorry but if I get that far behind a student I don't have any business training. I'll either switch the fuel selector to L or R if I catch a student not checking the selector but never intentionally off on a perfectly good engine.

It does happen, I've had a student brainfart and pull the mixture to ICO while calling Carb Air Hot !!!

He looked at me, I looked at him, he put the mixture back to rich in an awful hurry.

[niwre]

I had an instructor do that to me (stop the prop) while all the while saying a student will do that to you during my class IV training.... im sorry but if I get that far behind a student I don't have any business training. I'll either switch the fuel selector to L or R if I catch a student not checking the selector but never intentionally off on a perfectly good engine.

It does happen, I've had a student brainfart and pull the mixture to ICO while calling Carb Air Hot !!!

He looked at me, I looked at him, he put the mixture back to rich in an awful hurry.

I see what your saying but my instructor was referring to actually killing the engine and bringing the prop to a standstill

[767]

Secondary checks:

1. Cause check

engine warm........

2. mayday..

engine warm........

3. pax brief

engine warm.......

4. shut down check

engine warm........

[MichaelP]

We teach for the benign engine failure that almost never happens unless you are stupid enough to run out of fuel...

Carb heat hot, turn towards the field while setting the glide, cause checks, Mayday/7700, Passenger brief, reach for the emergency checklist, secure the engine, all while you make it into the field.

Real engine failures are seldom as trained!

The Bucker Jungmann was climbing really well that day, the Hirth motor singing sweetly, when suddenly the crankshaft broke between No 3 and No 4.
That engine wanted to shake itself off the mounts right now!
I switched the mags off and raised the nose, I wanted that prop to stop, lowered the silent nose with its stopped prop to the glide and landed, no bother, simple!
We were supposed to have a radio, new rules at Redhill, and the ATC controller successfully distracted the airport manager from the situation playing out on 01!

The Cherokee roared out of Langley, up to 2,500 feet over Highway 1, BANG, bang bang bang... 'A valve's gone I thought', throttled back, and went back to land back at the airport with a little help from is O-320...
I was accused of over-revving the engine! Fixed pitch in the climb? But I'm the aerobatic pilot capable of anything!

Sudden silence over Blackie Spit... Now it's a benign failure, props windmilling on either side, and yes it was no fuel!
Procedure?
"I'll call the tower", I said, "you sort the aeroplane out", I said.
1200 feet is not long enough for the taught mayday call, a simple "Golf India Juliette has lost both engines, going into a field one mile east of Delta Airpark" sufficed.
Then we didn't, the highly experienced owner put the wheels down and we were in the mud tout suite with a lesson in Vmcse at 100 feet... Sometimes aerobatic abilities are put to the test!
Be careful who you fly with and make sure you verify his/her fuel state!

[Old Dog Flying]

We teach for the benign engine failure that almost never happens unless you are stupid enough to run out of fuel...

Carb heat hot, turn towards the field while setting the glide, cause checks, Mayday/7700, Passenger brief, reach for the emergency checklist, secure the engine, all while you make it into the field.

Real engine failures are seldom as trained!

The Bucker Jungmann was climbing really well that day, the Hirth motor singing sweetly, when suddenly the crankshaft broke between No 3 and No 4.
That engine wanted to shake itself off the mounts right now!
I switched the mags off and raised the nose, I wanted that prop to stop, lowered the silent nose with its stopped prop to the glide and landed, no bother, simple!
We were supposed to have a radio, new rules at Redhill, and the ATC controller successfully distracted the airport manager from the situation playing out on 01!

The Cherokee roared out of Langley, up to 2,500 feet over Highway 1, BANG, bang bang bang... 'A valve's gone I thought', throttled back, and went back to land back at the airport with a little help from is O-320...
I was accused of over-revving the engine! Fixed pitch in the climb? But I'm the aerobatic pilot capable of anything!

Sudden silence over Blackie Spit... Now it's a benign failure, props windmilling on either side, and yes it was no fuel!
Procedure?
"I'll call the tower", I said, "you sort the aeroplane out", I said.
1200 feet is not long enough for the taught mayday call, a simple "Golf India Juliette has lost both engines, going into a field one mile east of Delta Airpark" sufficed.
Then we didn't, the highly experienced owner put the wheels down and we were in the mud tout suite with a lesson in Vmcse at 100 feet... Sometimes aerobatic abilities are put to the test!
Be careful who you fly with and make sure you verify his/her fuel state!

Come on Michael, tell us about the rest of the story of the twin out of fuel...there is more than you are telling us...but then again what can we expect. You've probably "broken" more aircraft than anyone else that I know of in Canada and certainly more than anyone in the Vancouver area.

[MichaelP]

You've probably "broken" more aircraft than anyone else that I know of in Canada

That stupid allegation is what originally brought me to this forum when a friend mentioned that someone else had written it here...
I wrote down every incident I have been in and it did not amount to much in my 34 years and many hours flying in a large number of aircraft types.

The short of it is, that I would never have been allowed to fly so many different types of aircraft, some of which were priceless, I would never get insured so easily and most times without cost, if my record was as bad as some people allege.


So what is the foundation for your allegation Barney???

I know that there's a certain amount of allegation and rumour that goes around.
I prefer to deal with facts.
There is nothing I dislike more than BS and lies.

As for the full story on the Seneca crash, I have told it many times, even published it, I do not have any reservations about telling the story as such information is educational. I do not have anything to hide.

Do be careful not to slander, libel, or even defame your fellow pilots on this forum.
Keep it positive, and factual.