Speaking French on the radio

[C23flyer]

Same phonetic alphabet, just different way of pronouncing it..

Sexier, I bet.

[valvelifter]

At risk of being politically incorrect I have to say that there shouldn't be any French on 126.7. Sooner or later we will have a forum on here on two aircraft that got toasted midair because of miscommunication. I've flown north of Quebec in Nunavut and a few trips into Northern Quebec which have always proved to be a Gong show trying to figure out where all the traffic is relative to me when the position reports were given in french. I hope I'm wrong but it's an accident waiting to happen if it hasn't already.

Good point. Along the same lines, one time when performing circuits at Mascouche, I witnessed a miscommunication between a pilot speaking English and the rest of the traffic speaking French. Another aircraft in the circuit had to translate the English pilot's intentions to the traffic, believe it or not, because two aircraft were apparently turning on base at the same time. One of them, I can't remember who, ended up going around.

It's ironic how we pilots have to get certified in communication before flying solo, getting graded on details such as how well we can memorize the phonetic alphabet.

And in the end, as 3juggs points out, we still cannot communicate effectively.

[xlent]

You know what guys, it comes down to a very simple reality.

Jazz 2345 cleared to land 24L, and
Jazz deux, trois, quatre, cinq d'accord debarquer a la piste vingt quatre gauche (sorry if thats incorrect)

The thing is, if i've just been cleared to position on runway 24 L and hear that transmission in English I probably STOP, if that transmission is made in French...I have no idea that it's a potential hazard. And guess what, controllers aren't perfect and this is something that happens everyday...

what happens when something just like this causes a serious incursion...

Could this be prevented by certain companies changing policy/SOP in order to enforce the use of the ICAO language?

[TG]

Come on!, flying in Quebec is not like flying in some remote countries in Africa where they will speak Swahili on the radio while doing scary ATC coordinations (tongue in cheek comment)

Quebec is part of Canada. One should be able to speak a few words of his/her second 'official' own country language!
If I couldn't I would be ashamed. And this goes as well for any Quebequer regarding English.

So you want to have English only on the frequencies in Quebec !?
Good luck with it and let me know what happen when the first PPL babbling a few words of English will show up in Montreal or Quebec City's TMA, thinking that he fully understood his last autorisation.
I can even bet that some will just start busting terminals without even talking to anyone.

Actually I would be curious to see all your faces if the OACI comes up with Mandarin or Cantoness as new official radio languages.
I'm sure you will review ticasse's comments with new eyes

This being said, peace! I'm all for a single language on the radio



Spelling, grammar and syntaxe mistakes are second language induced.

[taylor498]

That's exactly my point CAT, but isn't it still a requirement at Jazz/ AC (Cathay for that matter) to be fluent in English?...thus, why can't they speak English in their radio communication. That brings up another question. When these pilots are spewing French on the radio, are their fellow crew members in the loop?...I hope so

An example just popped into my mind... a certain F/O I know for AC said that when he flies into places like Montreal he sometimes initiates his calls in French out of common courtesy, or even just a "bonjour" thrown in there. (he is fluent in both) ... most of the time ACC or TWR will come back in French for the remainder of the communication, meanwhile his skipper usually has no idea what's going on. After which, he tries to switch the exchange to English, or continue in French, depending on how choked the guy in the left seat is looking

[small penguin]

Unfortunately French is not the international language of aviation....

Doesnt have to be Unless you're stupid or ignorant.

(b) in the case a licence, documentation establishing that the applicant demonstrated, by means of an evaluation, their ability to speak and understand English or French, or both, at the operational or expert level in accordance with the language proficiency scale set out in the table to subsection 421.06(4) of the personnel licensing standards.
(amended 2008/04/17; no previous version)

(2) The applicant for a flight crew permit, licence or rating must be sufficiently competent in one of the official languages to be able to read the examination questions and to write the answers without assistance.
(amended 2001/03/01; no previous version)

Maybe the problem isnt with a "language barrier" with the pilots. Maybe the problem lies with certain Canadian citizens whom refuse to learn the other official language of their country

[valvelifter]

I have an analogy regarding this issue...

How about this very forum?

Although I don't think it is written anywhere, this is an english-speaking site (with the exception of the French-speaking forum of course).

Keep in mind that here, we are pilots who are trying to communicate. Just like we do in the air. Same concept.

Would it make sense then to have a free-for-all and have everybody post in the language of their choice?

Would the discussions get as interesting and informative (and heated) if half the people did not understand what the other people were trying to say?

On the ground we have access to Google translate. No such luck a couple of thousand feet AGL.

I have no problem communicating in French but I feel bad for my fellow pilots, especially those from out of town (and country), who are scared to fly in Quebec.

[valvelifter]

Maybe the problem isnt with a "language barrier" with the pilots. Maybe the problem lies with certain Canadian citizens whom refuse to learn the other official language of their country

I thought communication was all about safety, and not about politics and official languages.

[pilotbzh]

Another solution might simply be to move elsewhere, or fly elsewhere, if multiple languages really scare some people that much.

You never fail to amaze us small penguin.

Another solution might simply be to move elsewhere, or fly elsewhere,

That really will make things better between French and English speaking pilots won't it.

A 'professional pilot' landing at a small French airport should be able to communicate in French.

Unfortunately French is not the international language of aviation....

You're wrong, the official languages of the ICAO is english/French/Spanich/Russian since the convention of Chicago signed on dec7 1944, since then Chinese and arabic have been added to the list of official languages (arounf 1995) and all ICAO document are available in any of this languages.....

[ski_bum]

Safety is number one in aviation right? In the end we all want to get home every night. Having two languages on the radio in the end could result in an accident taking place. For me flying in northern Quebec, I might as well turn my radio off as I have no clue where anyone is because I can't understand French. I don't do this, I cross my fingers that I may pick up something from a position report, but I'm trying to prove a point.

There have been some great points made so far in this thread, it is interesting to see everyone's opinions on this.

xlent, you hit the nail on the head...

[Right Seat Captain]

I used to try and fit in when flying in the middle east by ending all my transmissions with " enchallah. " worked like a charm.

Indeed, but it makes you wonder when your clearance is "You're cleared to Taif airport, inshallah" or "you're cleared to land, inshallah"

[jetflightinstructor]

Could this be prevented by certain companies changing policy/SOP in order to enforce the use of the ICAO language?

French is an official ICAO language. French is also an official language of United Nation.

I agree with the idea you want to explain. I still have some concerns about your manner, and your argument.
Safety is the only goal. I think you are smart, you should be able to explain your point of view without creating an attack about one part of the human being identity: the language.
Be very careful when you talk without politness about this subject, be sure you are on a virtual internet discussion, or remain outside the non english speaking world (wich represents more than 80%).

I agree with enforcing safety, but 99.99 % of the crash in Canada are not language problem related. Wrong battle if you are really honnest to fight for safety.

How could you be sure that in 50 years english will still be the official international radio communication language (note that at this time its not the only official one for domestic flight, in some country you still cannot flight DOMESTIC if you dont know the country language), breath deeply, open your heart, accept the difference. You will feel better. Learn a new language also, it will stimulate your brain. Nowadays individuals able to speak 3-4 languages and understand others culture are not uncomon.

While I agree to make a big effort for all crew to speak english, I want to remind you that if safety honnestly is your first concern, you should fight on the 99,99% non-language related crash. You will be more efficient to save life.

[Hedley]

Today, I am only going to speak Spanish on the radio.

Tomorrow, I am only going to speak Mandarin.

[3juggs]

I respect the fact that Canada has two official languages however [b]small penguin[/b] just because somebody can't speak the other official language doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, just means they didn't have the same opportunities or requirement to learn French or vice versa as you. Not everyone in Canada has the same exposure to both languages, have you been out west lately, try ordering in French, see where that gets you! For that matter try going anywhere outside of Quebec. Unfortunately most of Canada's education system haven't done a great job teaching us the other official language so when you quoted 401.06(1.1), and 401.13(2) it just goes to show us that the federal government recognizes that by amending all these laws aviation related or not. In a perfect world every Canadian would be bilingual but we don't live in a perfect world, we live in Canada. Not everyone flying threw Quebec is Canadian either, there is plenty of international traffic to, over and around Quebec that there first language isn't French or English. I'm willing to bet if they are flying with a major airline their second language isn't French. The language laws were put in place with good intentions, to preserve french but they are a double edged sword that probably weren't fully thought threw in respect to how they would affect us everyday when applied to aviation safety. I don't really care what anyone says on this forum in favor of French on the radio, no one can convince me that it is perfectly safe. Bottom line is I don't blindly follow ATC instruction without trying to mentally picture where all the traffic is and anytime I can't picture where that traffic is makes me nervous. I'm sure we all like to see the big traffic picture and and personally I don't like it when it's distorted. Every pilot takes pride in there ability to for see possible traffic conflict and suggest, request or take corrective action to avoid it. I'm sure ATC appreciates the help. With all that said my hats off to Montreal Center, they do an amazing job in both languages!!!

[SQ]

AFAIK, they speak English.

Yup, air traffic communications in Europe is conducted in English.

In fact an Air France flight into Montreal told ATC that Air France conducts all radio work in English when they received a transmission in French....( Maybe they couldn't understand Quebec French? )

it happened to be true...
ok, lets speak french on the radio but not quebecer... hu ?
did I say something wrong ?

[small penguin]

Maybe the problem isnt with a "language barrier" with the pilots. Maybe the problem lies with certain Canadian citizens whom refuse to learn the other official language of their country

I thought communication was all about safety, and not about politics and official languages.

It is. My point was anyone trying to blame language for safety, has issues. As its been pointed out already. If you're really not comfortable flying because you dont understand another language spoken on the radio, you have two options: A) Learn the language, B) Stop flying.

Safety is number one in aviation right? In the end we all want to get home every night. Having two languages on the radio in the end could result in an accident taking place.

Yes, it could. Just like anything else in this world could cause an accident. Pilot error, weather, mechanical, etc. In the end, you all want to go home, but you all have to accept that there is that possibility that you WONT go home, someday. If you cant accept the risk, why are you flying?

For me flying in northern Quebec, I might as well turn my radio off as I have no clue where anyone is because I can't understand French. I don't do this, I cross my fingers that I may pick up something from a position report, but I'm trying to prove a point.

If you feel you must shut off your radio, then go for it. You're allowed to fly nordo in uncontrolled. If flying with the radio off - or on, and not understanding French calls - makes you uncomfortable, then again, either learn the language, dont fly there, or stop complaining and suck it up.

I respect the fact that Canada has two official languages however small penguin just because somebody can't speak the other official language doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, just means they didn't have the same opportunities or requirement to learn French or vice versa as you.

Indeed you are correct. And if thats how I made myself sound, I correct myself. I meant to say anyone who refuses to learn the other language in a situation where it could benefit them (or even those around them).

In a perfect world every Canadian would be bilingual but we don't live in a perfect world,

In a perfect world, there would be no wars, no accidents, no medical deaths, no job losses, no food shortages, no pollution problems, no risks, no rewards, etc. And that would be a very boring way to live would it not?

The language laws were put in place with good intentions, to preserve french but they are a double edged sword that probably weren't fully thought threw in respect to how they would affect us everyday when applied to aviation safety. I don't really care what anyone says on this forum in favor of French on the radio, no one can convince me that it is perfectly safe.

Flying isnt perfectly safe!! Regardless of language. Anything you do in life is NOT perfectly safe!! Except maybe for dying.

[Cat Driver]

If you cant accept the risk, why are you flying?

small penguin, you truly don't have a clue about the subject of flying.

I have flown in about fifty different countries using different languages and obviously accepted the risk, by the way every one of them were using English as their means of communication when talking to foreign aircraft.

By the way do you have your PPL finished yet?

[valvelifter]

It is. My point was anyone trying to blame language for safety, has issues.

Oh yeah?

Have you read some of the stories on this thread yet? Are you comfortable with people saying they have no clue what another pilot is saying, or that some aircraft in your circuit pattern cannot communicate with you?

It's plain ignorance if you ask me. Aviation involves excellent communication skills and there have been air disasters blamed solely on miscommunication.

I seem to remember from a previous post that you are in some IT-related business. It doesn't surprise me as our company once claimed that the biggest problem with our IT support was the poor communication with the help desk.

[hawkerdriver]

Ok you're point is the safety, i come we all see (discovery channel) a mid air collision ,not only one and both crew speak english.Why they all speak the same langage an it is not safe???????????????

[Hedley]

Any pilot that relies solely upon his comm radio to provide safety is a fool.

[ski_bum]

Safety is number one in aviation right? In the end we all want to get home every night. Having two languages on the radio in the end could result in an accident taking place.

Yes, it could. Just like anything else in this world could cause an accident. Pilot error, weather, mechanical, etc. In the end, you all want to go home, but you all have to accept that there is that possibility that you WONT go home, someday. If you cant accept the risk, why are you flying?

I accept the risk that one day I may not come home, but I am trying to do every possible thing that I can to make sure I do... This is why I put enough fuel in my tanks, do a good walkaround, check weather, familiarize myself with where I am going before I head out. But none of this matters if I can't understand a call from someone who I think may be in my vicinity, or may be a conflict, especially in IMC... In VMC I still have a fighting chance of picking you out before its too late.

For me flying in northern Quebec, I might as well turn my radio off as I have no clue where anyone is because I can't understand French. I don't do this, I cross my fingers that I may pick up something from a position report, but I'm trying to prove a point.

If you feel you must shut off your radio, then go for it. You're allowed to fly nordo in uncontrolled. If flying with the radio off - or on, and not understanding French calls - makes you uncomfortable, then again, either learn the language, dont fly there, or stop complaining and suck it up.

Maybe I should learn French? Maybe you should just speak in English? Maybe we should open up 126.70 to all languages, after all we live in Canada, we don't like to step on anyones toes... Sucking it up is what's being done by the most of us, complaining about it maybe what you think were doing, but I don't see it as that. All I hope that if your speaking French, and you hear someone speaking in English on the radio, you have the courtesy to speak in English so we know what's going on...

[Cat Driver]

All I hope that if your speaking French, and you hear someone speaking in English on the radio, you have the courtesy to speak in English so we know what's going on...

Exactly:

[small penguin]

It is. My point was anyone trying to blame language for safety, has issues.

Oh yeah?

Have you read some of the stories on this thread yet? Are you comfortable with people saying they have no clue what another pilot is saying, or that some aircraft in your circuit pattern cannot communicate with you?

It's plain ignorance if you ask me. Aviation involves excellent communication skills and there have been air disasters blamed solely on miscommunication.

I seem to remember from a previous post that you are in some IT-related business. It doesn't surprise me as our company once claimed that the biggest problem with our IT support was the poor communication with the help desk.

Therefore, you are saying that you'd be very uncomfortable flying NORDO (as a GA assuming) You're also saying that you can give me a fairly hefty list of 'air disasters' where the primary cause of the accident was a language barrier.

Yes, I work in IT. I manage networks and servers. Im glad to say I've never worked (or will work) a help-desk. Thats not IT. Thats customer relations.

Any pilot that relies solely upon his comm radio to provide safety is a fool.

Exactly. How many posts have you guys made crying out for people to use transponders so you can see them on your PCAS/TCAS. How many of you look out the window while flying (assuming VFR) If you're IFR, you're life is in the hands of the controller watching over you. That another aircraft speaks another language you dont understand, the controller does. Sometimes you have to sacrifice layers of security.

I accept the risk that one day I may not come home, but I am trying to do every possible thing that I can to make sure I do... This is why I put enough fuel in my tanks, do a good walkaround, check weather, familiarize myself with where I am going before I head out. But none of this matters if I can't understand a call from someone who I think may be in my vicinity, or may be a conflict,

What about learning the language that is used by some to communicate in the area where you are flying? I'd think that'd be an good way to help improve safety. Would you fly everyday in Germany without learning German? Heck would you drive, or live in Germany without learning German?

Maybe I should learn French? Maybe you should just speak in English? Maybe we should open up 126.70 to all languages,

Yes, maybe you should learn French. Whats the harm?!? And no, 126.7 is open to the official languages of Canada. English and French. Theres no need for more, there's no need for less.

All I hope that if your speaking French, and you hear someone speaking in English on the radio, you have the courtesy to speak in English so we know what's going on...

At an ATF or an maybe even MF, I can understand that request. Heck even on 126.7 But in controlled airspace, theres no need. Pilots talk to controllers, controllers talk to pilots.

Commercial pilots have a lot of tools helping them avoid conflicts. A controller looking at a radar screen, a TCAS system in the plane, their eyes looking out the window, and their ears listening on the frequency. You're all complaining about the radio. Does this mean you folks feel uncomfortable in uncontrolled airspace west of Quebec where the radio is in English but there's no controller to give you warnings?

[middle marker]

Ticasse,
You are forgetting about the ICAO rules, "English is the primery langual spoken at all Internationally classified airports." So no Lufthansa pilots speak english at Frankfurt.
Indonesian pilots speak english in Ujung Pandang.
Greek Pilots speak english in Athens.
Saudi pilots..well you get the message.
It is all about situational awareness which in turn is about flight safety.
It does help to say "good day" in the language of that country or provence..It is something everyone who flies internationally understands and poses no flight risk and is just plain gentlemanly good manners.

[niss]

Do you guys speak Inuktitut @ Iqaluit? I think you should learn considering that it is more or less an official language there.