Multi Crew Licence, what a farce!

[Kelowna Pilot]

Clunk, didn't you know that there is a huge pilot shortage just around the corner, one that will produce a "crisis" so large that it will negatively impact Canada's transportation system and economy.

We need the Multi Crew License now more than ever. Where will Air Canada and Westjet find their crews? They'll be forced to park most of their planes due to a lack of pilots.

[GilletteNorth]

Just wanted to check what or who you are angry at...

1) the governments in those countries allowing the multi-crew licence?
2) any aviation companies that employ 'pilots' holding this certificate?
3)the 'kids' who chose to short-cut the training to become commercial pilots and have learned the hard way you get what you pay for?
4) those in TC (who are these?) promoting this (as you said: 'if this should take place in Canada')?
5) all of the above?

I find the concept of a person off the street getting 200 hours simulator time and then jumping into the seat of a B737 as co-pilot exceedingly frightening. I've 'flown' hundreds of hours using Janes F-15 Simulation and I don't see anyone offering to let me be a jet jock...
Please?

[Number1]

I could be wrong, but as far I have read, there are around, what, ten, maybe a few more or less, MPL grads so far, all in Denmark. Trained at Center Air and flying at Sterling. Some have been flying successfully for months already but have been laid off with others due to the downturn. None of them had had any issues such as are being described. On the contrary, that company has indicated that they are very pleased with their performance Their licenses are not tied to the airline after they are released onto the line. So, they are now in the same boat as everyone else. They'll suck it up like everyone else wait to get called back or move on.
Gotta wonder who your sources are. Where are these problems occurring?
Does a guy getting a CPL on a 150, a multi and instrument by a new instructor and then a 40 hour 737 type-rating really make you that much more comfortable. In some parts of the world, that actually is the norm.

[Kelowna Pilot]

The profit margins on simulator training are much greater than "in actual aircraft training".

That's the real reason why the flight training industry has been lobbying so heavily in favor of the MCL.

It's not about the protestations of false concern the flight training industry has for the future of aviation in Canada, the looming pilot shortage crisis that will impair the Canadian economy and throw us all back into the stone ages.

No, it's about profit margins. For them.

Hopefully Transport will be able to see through the self-serving spin of the flight training industry.

I'm confident they will.

[Cat Driver]

Hopefully Transport will be able to see through the self-serving spin of the flight training industry.

I'm confident they will.

You are basing this on the law of averages that says they have to get at least one out of hundreds correct?

[CFMartin]

I believe TC is already looking at amending the regulations to reflect the Multi Crew Licence...

[Hedley]

But I thought PIC time (and other old-fashioned skills
like stick & rudder) were things of the past, in our
brave new world!

Everyone knows the most important trait of today's
pilot is to always, always do exactly what everyone
on the ground tells him to do:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 518637.ece

IMHO, we need more pilots like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2AoYtTcFg

[whipline]

Hi Clunk. I have flown with a few of the 250hr 737 bunch. All of them were excellent. That last one I flew with had just over 1000 hrs total and I would have recommended him for an upgrade. It entirley depends on their intelligence and training. Curious as to what your Ex-Pat friends have had to go through?

Whip

[Kelowna Pilot]

Well, in Europe and Asia it's very common for 250 hour guys to be the FO on Airbuses.

The system seems to work for them. Done properly, it's safe.

The thing though is that the MCL has no place in the Canadian context... that the MCL could even be seriously discussed in the Canadian context is indicative of a leadership body in Transport that cannot distinguish between the self-serving rhetoric of certain industry players and reality.

Who is going to hire an MCL in grad in Canada?

Name one... just one...

And don't say China because unless your a local or a very high time Captain, no one overseas wants you.

The only winners in this sham will be the flying schools.

The only losers the greater fool who shelled out big bucks for his MCL and now finds he is totally unemployable.

[whipline]

I agree with everything you just wrote Kelowna. The pilots that I was referring to were trained by retired airline pilots and the students, even thought they are paying for the training can be kicked out of the program if they are not cutting it. Again it comes down to apptitude, intelligence and training. Take any of those away and you are left with nothing.

Whip

[E-Flyer]

Well, as predicted by many the whole multi crew thing is imploding as airlines who got involved in this scam have started to lay of with the downturn due to fuel costs, here is whats hapening in parts of the world where labour laws have allowed this certificate to be sponsored by individual outfits.Firstley I have recieved a few e mails from ex pats who have experienced having some of these folks in the right seat, as one said "I think I would rather fly solo than have to undergo this again" It seems that after two hundred hours of 737 sim runing the FMS they are very good at it, the problems start when the ILS is not available and they actually have to fly the aircraft {perish the thought, pilots having to hand fly!} Now whats hapening is these kids are being laid of and have found out the hard way that they are unemployable in the real world, in many cases thier parents were sucked in to this and have spent money they dont have to put the kids through this training , now with the layoffs the kids cant get a flying job as thier training was type/airline specific and they have no training in the real world of aviation, also with less than 100hrs of actual pole time they cant even hold a VFR comercial, It would seem that those in TC who are promoting this crap have no clue as to the situation these kids find themselves in, acording to my lawyer there are grounds for a pretty nasty legal case here if this should take place in Canada, something about labour laws but thats out of my field. I somtimes despair of the ethics I see these days in aviation, recently I heard an FTU employee explaing to uninformed parents that the old hulk of a totally outdated simulator would "ensure thier kids a job" when in fact the bloody thing is little more than a boat anchor!Maybe if any one from TC reads this site they might show this to those in flight training policy,not that they would care I suspect.{end of rant, feel good enough to mow the grass now!}

Well europe has the same program going on really ... they take 18 year olds, send them to phoenix, put them on the 747 as a relief pilot for a few years and get them to fly a widebody at the age of 22 -24. And have you seen how some of these Europeans take off and land... reminds me of Boundary Bay sometimes. The problem you mentioned about them knowing the FMS really well is another thing too... the europeans are too focused on theory and less on flying. Canada is the other way around though haha... more on flying less on theory, better than the states though.

[sportingrifle]

My New Years Resoloution was to spend less time lurking around on this forum, but lately I have fallen off the wagon, and this topic has me fairly leaping off it.

As pointed out earlier, this MCL scheme was cooked up by bean counters at some airlines and by some large training organisations. The training organisations see it as a huge cash cow, while the airlines see it as a way to deal with their (-supposed-) pilot shortages. (Try paying more at the entry level but that is another issue.) With a bunch of lobbying from the appropriate industry wheel greaser, various regulatory bodies are buying in. In the long run, it isn't going to work. Why? Lotsa reasons.

Basic flying skills. A modern airliner doesn't take a whole lot of ability to land off an ILS on a nice day on a dry long runway. Many people have no idea how much skill it takes to land off a non precision at night, in the rain, on a short runway with a 20 knot X wind. (LaGuardia one winter night with an A-321.) This skill is taught by years of mentoring and experience in Beavers, PC-12's, King Airs, etc. It is NOT taught in flight schools, even fancy airline prep ones. One of my pet peaves when I was CP of a small airline was that the 200 hr. wonders knew so much theory, flew such perfect ILS's, and had completely forgotten how to land in crosswinds or deal with changing winds on approach. You see it at training airports watching the light twins arriving. Perfect to 200' and then often driven on, nosewheel first, with the screeching of tires announcing to all that the drift hadn't been accounted for at touchdown. The basic flying skills need to be ingrained and second nature by the time you are flying big (expensive) airplanes. Take a look on this forum of the photo of the A-320 scraping a wingtip in a hell of a crosswind 6 months ago. As the downwind winglet is disintergrating on the runway in a cloud of carbon fibre, the rudder, ailerons, and roll spoilers are all NEUTRAL! The FO flying was new out of some academy with less than 500 hrs. total time. I guarentee you that no pilot with even 1 season on floats or in in a B-18 or ? would ever have allowed that to happen. They would have put in as much control input as required and if it wasn't enough, recognized the fact and done something about it. An unfortunate by-product of this is greatly increasing the stress and workload on the captains.

Judgement. You can teach the principles and theories of decision making but without experience, they are very difficult to apply. One way around this is to operate in a very conservative environment that requires little judgement. An example, if there is no precision approach slope guidance, (ILS, PAPI, etc.) we won't fly there at night or if the weather is bad. A few airlines do operate like this but the commercial pressures are just too great for most. The counter arguement is that there is always an experienced Capt. to make these tricky judgement calls. The reason airliners are crewed with 2 pilots is not to put 4 hands and feet in the cockpit but to put 2 brains checking on each other. If one doesn't have the experience they are along for the ride and you have essentially a single pilot airplane.

Knowledge and Experience. Many people also have no idea how often an airline crew modify the flight plan, or make tactical decisions inflight, based on "gut feeling" and "H'mmmm, I've seen this before." Frequently, these decisions are overly conservative and cost the company some money or time. Occasionally they save the day. Putting very inexperienced crew in the cockpit halves the chance of these sort of decisions being made. Again, getting close to a single pilot airplane.

It is interesting talking to my friends at Jazz about their new hires fresh from collage. They appear to have gone through something similar to the MCL program. They are good with the FMS, understand the airplane systems well, and are very able to deal with any emergency that they have practiced in the simulator. Basic flying skills are weak, analysis of rapidly changing, complex situations are very weak, and God help you if something big happens that isn't trained in the simulator. My friends all say you are on your own then. This is not a reflection on the guys (and girls)themselves, they are the best of their class. It is just what you would expect from where they have come from.

In the end, I think that it is the insurance companies that will constrain this MCL thing. Insurance companies that are on the hook for a billion or so each crash look at risk factors very carefully. A few hull losses where a crew members experience level was an issue and the number crunchers will adjust rates accordingly. Then the airlines will realize the blind alley they ran down.

Any thoughts??? I'm curious to hear from others in the industry, especially the training end of things.

Cheers Sportingrifle.

[Kelowna Pilot]

I think the MCL won't last; it's one of those things that sounds great in theory on paper, but like a lot of theories it's just totally cut-off from reality and has no place in Canada.

First, there is no Pilot Shortage. There never has been. What there was for a couple years was a temporary spike in "need" as the airlines started recruiting again after about 8 years of no virtually no movement.

To talk about "pilot shortages" is to play into that grifter like self-deluded game of smoke and mirrors that that the flight training industry has been talking-up since forever.

I dare anyone to go down to the United States right now and mentioned the word 'Pilot Shortage'. Tell that to all the guys who have been furloughed, or the guys who are waiting for their layoff notice while they fly their regional jet for the same amount of money a Taco Bell fast food worker makes.

But ultimately the MCL will die because no one in their right mind (hopefully) will sign up for the thing.

An MCL grad in Canada will be totally unemployable. No one will hire him.

All he'll have at the end is a worthless piece of paper and a big hole in his wallet.

[Kelowna Pilot]

done much in life were fuggin totally booring persons to work with!

Spending 8 hours in a tiny tin can with someone almost fresh out of high school... better bring a good book...

[Cat Driver]

Any thoughts??? I'm curious to hear from others in the industry, especially the training end of things.

Cheers Sportingrifle.

YES!!!

YES!!!

YES!!!

FOR CHRIST SAKES CAN SOME MODERATOR PLEASE STICKY THIS EXCELLENT POST.


I was afraid there were no more real pilots left here on this forum.

[2R]

tree munths ago i culd nut spell cummercial pilot .
now i are one

[Kelowna Pilot]

Just read the "dont mary a pilot" thread, it even rags on about the MCL, interesting take on this scam to say the least!

That article was written in the European/UK context.

The European/UK and Canadian context are totally different.

But that's a distinction I get the feeling that a lot of the industry leaders don't make.

They'll look at a study of something that's relevant only to the European context, for example, and just blindly assume that what applies in Europe or the UK automatically applies in Canada.

I think you're seeing that idea first hand with the MCL concept in Canada.

I still have not received an answer though to his question:

Name one aviation company in Canada who will hire an MCL license holder?

Just one... that's all I want

[Kelowna Pilot]

Yeah, Transport will hire them... I could see that happening.

The same way some flight schools will "hire" everyone single one of their instructor students to make their employment stats look good even though the "employee" spends 8 hours a day sitting around waiting for a student and not getting paid along with all the instructor grads.


The MCL is intended mainly for heavy EFIS equipment, not King Airs or even something like a 1900.

So who in Canada who operates something big and probably heavy with full glass is going to hire an MCL?

Air Canada? Westjet? Transat?

[E-Flyer]

I doubt it

[Kelowna Pilot]

The only way I could see Air Canada doing it is if the MCL works for $15,000 per year or less.

Frankly, with the way things are going in the airline industry (high fuel costs, slumping economy), the cynic in me says Air Canada might pull a stunt like this to reduce labor costs and associated overhead.


The cynic in me also says that because there are a lot of pilots who view flying as a "dream" rather than a job that is supposed to pay you money, there would be no shortage of guys out there who live with their parents who would gladly work for $15,000 per year or less.


Transport, if you're reading this thread... and I'm sure some of you are.... please respond and tell us point by point the "justifications" for the MCL program.

I'd like to hear your official version.