Cador for this?

[lilfssister]

Kitty Cat- 99.9% of the time I have no idea who is flying the aircraft I fill out reports on. TC does not send us a list saying "if this guy LOOKS at an airplane, file SOMETHING!". We have a 30+ item list of things we must file reports on. None of them name a specific pilot. They are things that happen. They happen, we file a report. This includes, as I have said before, our own f ups. If a member of the non-flying public calls to report something we file a report and leave it to the higher ups as to whether it makes it to the CADORS or not. If a pilot reports something, we file a report and leave it to the higher ups to decide if it gets to CADORS. Some make CADORS, some don't. In the case of the first post in this thread: no injuries were reported at the time of filing. If later on someone cries "whiplash" or something, and says, the police reported it to the powers that be...well, yes they did and it was forwarded. We don't have a choice. Someone reports or we witness something falling within those 30+ categories, we HAVE to send it up the food chain.

[Cat Driver]

Sis, you know that I am well aware of the position of FSS people, you are in the same boat we are unless you write the report it is your ass on the line.

You also know what my reservations are regarding how TCCA handles these things, sure in most cases they handle the reports in a fair manner.

It is the few that abuse their power that is the concern that those of us in aviation should be aware of...and thus have the choice of how one responds to a phone call.

When are you coming out to go sailing?

[The Mole]

Cat you scared of being ratted out for doing something wrong, or being confronted on it. I fly an aircraft with a rat box installed. I have to explain why i pulled the piss out of an aircraft to my boss. keeps guys honest. Especially in high production flying. Try telling an engineer he has to do and over torque inspection and its -40. Then walk into the client and tell him the aircraft is grounded. Costing the client 50,000 for a days lost work. When you work for Conoco philips, you have to fill a work site hazard form, plus a tail gate meeting. EVERY DAY. Safety meeting every morning to find out its cold, and the dangers of cold. Don't like it, go home. Oh before you more that truck, daily inspection form. I prefer to submit so much paper, that the logging industry turns around.

Transport is f***.. when it come to abuse of power. Every region is different no consistency. Get an ass hole inspector and it will cost a fortune to defend yourself. Suing the government can take years.

[Cat Driver]

Cat you scared of being ratted out for doing something wrong, or being confronted on it.

Not in the least, every pilot who flys for a living does something wrong for the simple fact we are human.

My concern is who it is that calls me to task for doing something wrong, and as you say here....

Transport is f***.. when it come to abuse of power. Every region is different no consistency. Get an ass hole inspector and it will cost a fortune to defend yourself. Suing the government can take yea

It is a real crap shoot who you will get when dealing with Transport, get a bully and you have a real problem because regardless of how far they go in abuse of power TCCA will back them to the hilt.....every time...

Having flown for over fifty years for a living both fixed and rotary aircraft without ever filling out an accident report has to mean something.

I can attest to the cost of trying to defend yourself when you run into a thug in TCCA....it broke my company and resulted in my being denied the right to fly for a living in Canada.

I eventually won my case of abuse of power by several TCCA employees including the Regional Director Civil Aviation in the Pacific Region, they agreed to pay me $250,000 dollars if I won my case.....

To date I have received zero and the final judgement in my favour was over five years ago.

That sorry piece of human garbage that holds the position of DGCA in Ottawa still protects his thugs and refuses to acknowledge the debt that TCCA ows me.

I just started flying in Canada again last month in private aviation and I hope I never ever see one of their employees ever again as long as I live.... I can't think of anyone except maybe child molesters who I despise more.

[The Mole]

i had an old chief pilot tell me. If was every standing next to pile of smoking wreckage. To call him first, and he would tell my lawyer what happened. With the exclamation DO NOT F**** talk to anyone else, and don't F****** talk to transport. Nobody has your interests at heart. I guess 40yrs flying taught him a few hard felt lessons about the MAN.....

[GilletteNorth]

I don't believe the CADORs system is used as a self-imposed reporting system to find ways to fine/charge pilots. It is a database. It is used to see if trends are developing so that senior TC managers can strategize and implement needed? changes to safety. Many are generated to have a factual report on events that may show trends that can be mitigated through new initiatives. An example of how CADORs might result in action being taken can be seen with the numerous ELT reports. If CADORs reports showed that more ELT tests were being done outside of the 5 minute window right after the hour, or that people were activating the ELT for more than 5 seconds at a time, Transport Canada might use an article in the Aviation Safety Letter issue to remind pilots about proper ELT testing. Another example might be CADORs concerning birdstrikes. If CADORs showed that more birdstrikes were occuring or were increasing over time, a new program might be started to check on reasons/causes and attempt to find newer or better ways to reduce birdstrikes in the vicinity of airports.
Only a few of the reports deal with matters that may end up being litigated and/or result in fines, mainly concerning accidents or incidents resulting in death or injuries.

[Cat Driver]

So I am to understand that pilots receiving phone calls from TC regarding a CADOR's is a rare event and only happens if there was a real threat to safety?

Remember I am not familiar with how things are done in Canada anymore due to not having flown here in many years until last month so my questions are genuine in that I don't know the answers.

[chu me]

Square;
I think what Cat is leery of is: that these things (when put in the system) can be taken out of context and add up to what looks like an unsafe pilot. T.C. could then use these CADORS in a prosecution case as evidence of your intentions to operate in an unsafe manner(ie.a proven track record of CADORS).
With out trying to sound to paranoid, this kind of thing has happened before to innocent persons( if you don't believe me just ask Donald Marshall,Guy Paul Morin, etc,etc). So people like me and Cat wonder aloud what use these things are being put to.

Sincerely

Chu me

[AntiNakedMan]

I read the Cadors everyday, and I find it informative in making me think about situations that I have yet to encounter. I feel it keeps with the old maxim "learn from the mistakes of others, you won't live long enough to make them all yourself"

[Cat Driver]

Canadian citizens are supposed to be guaranteed the right to " Due Process " under law in Canada.

Transport Canada does not recognize or give you this right as a Canadian citizen, instead they have an internal policy that specifically denies you this right by sealing their internal process and denying you the right to examine same.....this is how they can use their power to destroy anyone they wish to, especially if they are protecting one of their own.

When I was in my struggle to get a fair resolution to my issues with TCCA I received one of their "Protected " internal documents that clearly denies you the right to examine what they do or did to you by sealing the evidence with the statement that due to sensitive material contained herein it is not accessible under freedom of information.

This document was sent to me by a friend in TCCA management in a big brown envelope and when I presented it to the Director General Transport Canada and asked him if it was in fact genuine he finally confirmed that it was in fact a genuine TCCA document.

So there my friends is proof positive that you should never ever trust any TCCA official because they seem to believe they are above the law...and do and will deny you the rights that other Canadian citizens are guaranteed.

Like I keep saying TCCA is ruled by moral degenerates at the top....and Pruess is proof positive of that lack of moral compass and thus a disgrace to aviation and the rule of law.......I have documentation to prove that statement.......right Merlin?

[lilfssister]

When are you coming out to go sailing?

I have an elaborate plan in the works to accomplish that

[GilletteNorth]

Remember that CADOR's reports DO NOT contain information identifying who the pilot was in the incident aircraft.
Not all CADORs are reports regarding aircraft incidents, they are for a wide variety of safety issues.

It is my understanding that CADORs are not intended to be legal documents that would stand up in court. They are not 'written statements' from pilots. They are mostly drafted by ATS personnel after an incident becomes known, again, for data gathering purposes. You might find it helpful to know most CADORs are very VERY carefully written to avoid any extrapolation or incorrect factual statements. Most ATS personnel attempt to keep them as brief as possible.

Will TC see them? Yes. Do CADORs sometimes alert TC that someone may have broken a reg? Yes (one of the report titles available is 'regulatory infraction'). Is it CADORs that causes a pilot to recieve a fine/disciplinary action? No. If TC decided that an incident with possible legal repercussions was worthy of investigation, they would conduct an investigation separate from the CADORs.

CADORs is just a summary of known/reported events for data gathering purposes.

[patter]

CADORS are also quoted and used as data in aeronautical studies. Which is a mistake in my opinion. They are almost never added by pilots. Pilots know very little about what can be a CADOR.

[Cat Driver]

These acronyms become like snow flakes and hard to recognize.

When I converted my Aerobat to a tail dragger there was an incident during the flight test where the left wheel nut came off as I was exiting the runway.

An AOR ( I think that was what it was called then. ) was written up on it and I received a phone call from enforcement.

Being naive and wanting to co-operate because the incident was not something that I had done deliberately I explained what happened to the enforcement guy on the phone.

That ended up to have been a real mistake as it started a series of calls that almost drove me nuts.

In the end I finally told him to go to hell and if he called me again I was going to my MP and lay a complaint of harassment against him......never heard from him again.

By the way that was before my problem with TCCA that resulted in my company being bankrupted.

If TCCA ever calls me again I will refuse to answer any questions and hang up.

[C-FABH]

so... did everyone in the balloon "survive" or what? I want to read the follow-up!

[captain_dc]

I think a reporting system is nessasary, but the CADORS system in place has some serious flaws.

For 1 thing its written from one persons prespective thus posibly not getting all the details. CADORS are not verified all the time neither are they investigated for facts and then they are put out as a report on the internet available for everyone to read. If I disagree with the events in a report can I aply to have it removed? Do I have a system of fighting it? Well...I havn't been charged with anything so I gues not. If a company gets to many reports the chances are they will be put under a microscope...just because some specialist might want to report every little out of sync thing that happens at an aerodrome?

CADORS in some form are nesasary...but the present system is just a little to public with not enouph requirments for fact finding and investigating on those that are forced (it is their job) to write them.

What if you find yourself doing something you feel you should be able to do...or you are doing something out of the ordinary as a alternative to doing something that is even more unsafe and you get written up in a CADORS. Nobody calls you, transport sees it but its not a big enouph deal for them to get involved. You never get a chance to tell your side, is this a fair system? CADORS can make you and your company look bad even if you have done nothing wrong.

I also think that a pilot may be less likely to request asistance from a specialist if he is scared of ending up in a CADORS on the internet tomorow.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... h/main.asp

[...]

HEy this just happened!!!! Anyone have any other info?

CADORS Number: 200800828 Reporting Region: Ontario

Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/08/22
Occurrence Time: 1100 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: TBA Injuries: 3

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYYZ Aerodrome Name: Toronto
Occurrence Location: Toronto (CYYZ) Province: Ontario
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: Local media AOR Number:
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.:
Event InformationOther operational incident
Aircraft Information
Detail InformationUser Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2008/08/23
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: Two emotionally charged pilots from the same company went fist-a-cuffs on the VISTA ramp which resulted in an exchange of back to back triple sow cow round house kicks between these two pilots.

The argument started when apparently, one pilot was going to leave for a competitor which 'triggered' the following actions by the offended pilot. A Georgian Ailines aircraft was taxiing by (at almost rotate speed) and "ruffled" the feathers of the Skylink Express pilot in which that said pilot ran down taxiway "A" and caught up to the Beech 1900 aircraft, opened the rear cargo entry door, busted through the rear bulkhead, ran past all the seated passengers and went through the 'cock'pit doors only the grab the Captain by the neck and choke him until his pretty golden eppaulets fell off his freshly pressed white starched shirt that his mother so lovingly ironed the night prior.

If it was not for the quick thinking reaction from the first officer (newly graduated from Seneca Aviation College) by pressing "PLAY" on the onboard cassette player to sound the boarding music from Air Canada's theme song by Celine Dion entitled "You and I" which resulted in the 'attacker' letting go of the neck of the Georgian captain and clutching his ears in riving pain. Then both Georgian pilots proceeded to use their company issued mint Green "Crocs"™ ® (pictured below) to subdew the bald ethnic attacker.

[4Stroke]

[Cat Driver]

CLASSIC

[GilletteNorth]

Instructions for filling out AOR's (CADORS)...

1. remember, the AOR is a public document;
2. provide the pertinent facts in sufficient detail for the reader to understand what happened while keeping the summary brief;
3. do not include opinions, observations or conclusions in the AOR Summary. Report only the facts. (e.g. stating that the pilot violated CARS is a conclusion; stating that the aircraft departed in 1/8 mile visibility is a fact);
4. do not include personal information in the AOR;
5. similar information may be grouped (e.g. multiple aircraft departing below weather limits etc).

Reportable Occurrences:

A. aircraft accident;
B. aircraft incident;
C. operating irregularity; or (R) 151.1C. Reference: Operating Irregularity; 153.
D. any other reportable incident.

151.1D. Note 1:
Accidents, incidents and other occurrences are reported in accordance with the Transport Canada Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS) and with NAV CANADA requirements.
151.1D. Note 2:
Reportable occurrences include:
a. accidental death or serious injury to an employee or a member of the public;
b. any declared or indicated emergency;
c. engine failure;
d. difficulty in controlling the aircraft in flight;
e. smoke or fire on board the aircraft;
f. leakage of toxic or corrosive material;
g. aircraft decompression;
h. incapacitation of crew members;
i. any collision or risk of collision with an aircraft, a vehicle, terrain, or a pedestrian;
j. any ACAS/TCAS resolution advisory or GPWS/TAWS warning;
k. loss of separation;
l. failure to remain within the take-off area;
m. unplanned or emergency release of an external load (“sling load”);
n. bird or wildlife strike;
o. aircraft in weather difficulty or lost;
p. laser or other directed bright light illumination;
q. report of missing aircraft;
r. failure of a navigational aid, approach aid, communications system, airport lighting, or a power failure;
s. operation without a serviceable transponder and automatic pressure-altitude reporting equipment (excluding balloons and gliders) in transponder airspace;
t. reports of AWOS errors;
u. fuel shortage or use of incorrect fuel;
v. item dropped from an aircraft in flight;
w. significant ATS system problem which would limit the flow of traffic;
x. unavailability of a runway resulting in a major impact on aerodrome operations;
y. ELT signal heard or reported outside authorized testing period;
z. significant building or equipment fire;
aa. environmental emergency;
bb. unauthorized incursion;
cc. criminal action;
dd. unlawful use of ATS frequencies;
ee. ATS unit operating outside published hours;
ff. labour action affecting operation capability;
gg. regulatory infraction;
hh. unlawful interference (aircraft hijacking);
ii. terrorist activities;
jj. hostage taking;
kk. ATS evacuation due to potential hazard;
ll. dangerous goods spill, fuel spill, or major environmental incidents that affect operations;
mm. Bomb threat or bomb found;
nn. Any occurrence which might generate a high degree of public interest or concern or could be of direct interest to a foreign air authority; or
oo. Any other event which is irregular, unplanned or non-routine in nature which has an adverse effect upon flight safety or a major impact upon operations.

I typed this directly out of MANOPs so hopefully I haven't made any errors however...

*** NOTE: not to be used for legal purposes, posted for information use only ***

[crazyaviator]

Cat driver, I have had discussions with higher up folks at TC - Toronto and their "take" on the SMS is this : They are looking for incidents in the cadors to gauge your companies level of maturity, ability, and functionality of your in house SMS program, too many Cadors and your system isnt functioning well ,,,too FEW or none at all and your SMS system is not functioning well. It must take a room of decipherers to figure out which companies are actually doing well!! What SMS will never do is ( As you well know ) "fix" the bottom feeder companies ( few) who create (most) of the problems and incidents and accidents ! Enforcement and auditing resumes when an SMS operating company fails to comply with SMS and produces either poor self audits or poor or no corrective actions or no problems are revealed from the audit with corrective actions taken, or to many Cadors on the company. Good companies operate a kind of SMS , ITS CALLED MS ! Transport Canada ( Toronto) would like it called MS instead of SMS ,,,because that is exactly what it is !!! Good management and good relations between all in the company produces a functioning SMS system irrelevant of any overseeing authorities !! I used to work for a small company that has been in busines over 40 years , it is a command and control type of company and there is 1 director of EVERYTHING ! The DOM is a puppet ! Shit happens at that company and shall continue to happen BECAUSE the director of everything is the owner and he is old school , meaning he is in control of everything ( 14 employees) and there is NO good organization, no true rectification of ongoing system faults, no communication as to how to make things better, safer etc etc etc etc ! SMS will NEVER work for this type of company,, and for a very good company ,,,,SMS is actually an added, duplicate system for a good company that already has a good system in place ( very few do ) Transport Canada has to make it clear that companies need to EARN self management. TC still needs to audit on occasion , even with good companies. For bad companies, SMS is a joke and continous audits and revoking of the certificates are the only way to go . Just my 2 cents folks !

[Cat Driver]

I used to work for a small company that has been in busines over 40 years , it is a command and control type of company and there is 1 director of EVERYTHING ! The DOM is a puppet ! Shit happens at that company and shall continue to happen BECAUSE the director of everything is the owner and he is old school , meaning he is in control of everything ( 14 employees) and there is NO good organization, no true rectification of ongoing system faults, no communication as to how to make things better, safer etc etc etc etc ! SMS will NEVER work for this type of company,,

Therein lies the true problem the industry has been like this forever.

I also have seen many operations exactly as you describe above, the perplexing thing is how in hell do these people stay in business for forty years?

If TC were unaware of that operator for 40 years one must ask the obvious question, why were they not aware of that operators management style.

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it.......I'm so happy to have survived over 50 years in aviation in Canada I can not describe the feeling of reliefe I feel waking up every morning " Free at last from the madness that passes for an industry that is a joke safety and regulation wise. "

You all take care and try and survive as long as I have. It wasen't easy.

. E.

[crazyaviator]

Yes , I agree with you ! Its about the heart , Some call it human nature, Some call it evil, some call it sin , however way you choose, its a human condition that is UNCURABLE by itself !! Transport in Canada is not perfect because of the above and NEVER SHALL be as long as mere humans and human nature is in control . Continue the good fight BECAUSE , there is only 1 other option at this time and that is 3rd world , dictatorial foolishness which is FAR worse than the sad situation we are trying to "fix" today !!!