Flight level 23oh!

[Flying Nutcracker]

So explain to me how they can do multilingual stuff in let's sat CYUL and get away with it??? I've never felt as lost as when everybody around me speaks a different language. I am not about to learn french, just to be clear on that!

[AuxBatOn]

Its amazing how we haven't all run into each other with such confusion

Actually, it's happened. I'm not claiming to be the perfect radio operator, but the use of slang has in the past created assumptions being made by the receiver of the message causing confusion and loss of situational awareness as a result. Classic example is the use of "for"/"four" and "to"/"two", such as
"cleared to four hundred feet" and "Cleared two four hundred feet".

Okay sure, saying "23 - oh" instead of "23 zero" over Edmonton won't cause a mid-air, but it things people say like "as long as the point gets across" that scare me...who are you to decide how the receiver of the message will get the point? Sticking to proper terminology that we all know and understand keeps us all on the same page.

RSC. Being a frenchman, I can tell you why I think "as long as your point comes across". I really make a concius effort to use proper terminology to eliminate the accent side of things. However, when I use Tree (vice the real tHree) for 3, ATC often come back to me to confirm what I just said. Some think I say two.

Who am I to decide the messag will get across? From my experience, what I use gets the point across. Like not using Tree as it mostly confuse people.

[stopsquawk]

Proper R/T using the correct phonetics................... FL 230 two three zero.....not two three oh USofA bad for this and we have let it creep in to our practices. 0 is a # O is a letter.

Actually, Zero is the number "Oscar" is the letter, and "OH" is an expression of surprise, wonder, amazement or awe. So I suppose "Two Three OH!" might be appropriate if you were truly surprised and amazed that you finally got cleared to your requested altitude.

[Right Seat Captain]

RSC. Being a frenchman, I can tell you why I think "as long as your point comes across". I really make a concius effort to use proper terminology to eliminate the accent side of things. However, when I use Tree (vice the real tHree) for 3, ATC often come back to me to confirm what I just said. Some think I say two.

Who am I to decide the messag will get across? From my experience, what I use gets the point across. Like not using Tree as it mostly confuse people.

I hear what you're saying, you're getting your point across

I'm speaking from the world of ATC that doesn't know any english outside of standard radio terminology. In that situation straying from standard phraseology can sometimes get ATC to make assumptions about what you mean (rather than them confirming you mean what they think) and you get yourself into trouble.

I notice here in Canada, pilots use slang, and ATC do a pretty good job at sticking to standard phraseology to keep things in order, whereas in the dark continent or other similar places, ATC uses poor phraseology, and it's up to the pilots to stick to standard terminology to keep things in order.

[Bushav8er]

Seem to recall that Lost Lake is a "new FO" and hasn't been 'on top' that long...maybe he should get back down to 15 oh oh and let the rest of us handle the flight levels. (or is that 1 point 5 which isn't 'correct' either)

[polar one]

Well, I am declaring tomorrow, September the first, NATIONAL "o' day.
Yep, all day tomorrow I am going to use O instead of zero. I encourage everyone else to do it also.
I am betting that there will be no cunfusion or problems with ATC?

And as a little aside, it seems to me as of just recently, that the pilots in the north (above the tree line)are really using proper RT.
Not exactly sure why , but a huge improvement on ETA's, etc..Makes me proud to be a pilot again.


Oh, we still get the 060 flt level, and "we are at the top of the descent" (not sure exactly what that means but I heard it repeated about 4 times the other day. But in general it seems people are making good radio calls that are 5x5.

[F,D and H]

Could you imagine if they actually thought that you were at FL23 oh!?!?!?!?

I could see how this could get confusing!!!

[Biff]

ATC called me flight number 6 oh 1 yesterday. I read back 6 ZERO 1. Can't believe these guys!!!

Sarcasm intended

[AuxBatOn]

Biff, I hope you wrote a CADOR

[Intentional Left Bank]

By the way the rest of the world looks at North Americans (mainly yanks[sic]) as having the worst RT, and I'm told this everytime[sic] I'm checked on the line and Sim, by a non-North American, before I even open my mouth on the radio. "You North American's[sic] and your sloppy RT". Guess it could be because we aren't taught it properly from the get-go, got a heart beat and can press a PTT then here's you Restricted Radio Telephoney[sic] thinging-ma-bob. Rest of the world has to study the RT manula[sic] and write extensive exams.

Just think of it this way you saying "oh" on the radio is like starting to spell favour, labour, with just an or at the end. Now there would be an uproar about that not being right.

I would imagine it to be difficult to get used to spelling out the second syllable "-or." I have had less difficulty, however, in getting used to reading back "taxi to the gate" at a busy American airport when clearing the active runway.

We North Americans are also notorious for awarding High School Diplomas before the written English language has been mastered.

[Doc]

I use the term two three oh for flight levels, and I use the term two three zero for headings. I know it's incorrect, but I really think it really IS the better way. I would prevent confusion in the event an aircraft is cleared to, lets say......"Turn to two five zero, and maintain two three oh."
Sometimes, the way it USED to be just makes more sense.

[Rockie]

I use the term two three oh for flight levels, and I use the term two three zero for headings. I know it's incorrect, but I really think it really IS the better way. I would prevent confusion in the event an aircraft is cleared to, lets say......"Turn to two five zero, and maintain two three oh."
Sometimes, the way it USED to be just makes more sense.

The clearance should be "Turn left heading two five zero, maintain flight level two three zero"

Standard terminology exists for a reason that can actually be spelled out in blood. We are all guilty of transgressions occasionally, but when it comes to clearances I try and be exact in my terminology. That includes saying "cleared to land 24 right" when the controller only said "cleared to land". Someday some guy who was mistakenly cleared into position ahead of me might hear it and avert a disaster.

I landed in Boston a while ago and the ground controller issued a rapid fire taxi clearance like "November, Bravo, Alpha two, Alpha". That clearance crossed an active runway so I asked my partner to confirm we were cleared across Runway 33L. In a snarky tone the controller said that as far as he knew that was the only way to get to taxiway bravo. As far as I'm concerned he should have been pulled off the position and disciplined...and then retrained.

[.......]

I really really question the reason why it is so very difficult for some of us (in the pilot community) to abide by the standards of the profession...

Is it such a difficulty to pronounce the word zero instead of the syllable "oh" when it is meant to be?

Is it "the cool factor" that comes into play?

""ahhh, xx123, checkin' in, flight level 23"oh""

Checkin' in is in a hotel room, and "OH" is a letter for cryin' out loud... and "lookin' for lower"? well I leave it up to your interpretation!

I'm with Lost Lake and Rockie all the way on this one...

For the same reasons, when flying abroad (or out of N.A. for that matter), try "declaring an emergency" instead of using the standard "MAYDAY or PAN PAN "... you'll be in for a treat....

[Noob]

Its tough to talk "standards of the profession" when people are whoring themselves out, working for free buying PPCs etc. It is part and parcel of the same problem. Most don't give a shit in North America, it would seem a different profession to our brothers in Europe.

[Rockie]

Its tough to talk "standards of the profession" when people are whoring themselves out, working for free buying PPCs etc. It is part and parcel of the same problem. Most don't give a shit in North America, it would seem a different profession to our brothers in Europe.

Respectfully disagree. Whatever you do outside the cockpit. Whether you hate your company or love it. Whether you bought your PPC or not. Whether your company is a POS run by ML or a class outfit, if you can't leave it all outside the airplane and be professional doing your job then you have no business sitting in that seat.

No excuses.

[Mitch Cronin]

you're expected to put the gears down for landing, then do it.

That's gear, not gears. Gear is already plural. Combined, each of the gear assemblies comprise the landing gear. Ain't no need fer throwin' in an s!

[flying4dollars]

I really really question the reason why it is so very difficult for some of us (in the pilot community) to abide by the standards of the profession...

Is it such a difficulty to pronounce the word zero instead of the syllable "oh" when it is meant to be?

Is it "the cool factor" that comes into play?

""ahhh, xx123, checkin' in, flight level 23"oh""

Checkin' in is in a hotel room, and "OH" is a letter for cryin' out loud... and "lookin' for lower"? well I leave it up to your interpretation!

I'm with Lost Lake and Rockie all the way on this one...

For the same reasons, when flying abroad (or out of N.A. for that matter), try "declaring an emergency" instead of using the standard "MAYDAY or PAN PAN "... you'll be in for a treat....

It's not that zero is difficult to pronounce. Sometimes saying 'oh' just flows better. Controllers dont scratch their heads wondering what the pilot meant by "flight level 23oh".

Checking in is in a hotel room? No, it sure isn't. It's just so commonly associated with it that you may think that. As for lookin for lower, whats not to understand? How bout controllers who say "winds are down the pipe at 6 knots"? I dont sit there discussing with my co-worker what the heck thats supposed to mean.

I can see where most of you people disagree with using words like oh instead of zero, but judging by the cybertone of some of these posts, I think people take this issue more seriously than it will ever be. You can't judge a pilot by his professionalism by his ability to say 23 zero rather than 23 oh. This is just my opinion.

[.......]

It's not that zero is difficult to pronounce. Sometimes saying 'oh' just flows better. Controllers dont scratch their heads wondering what the pilot meant by "flight level 23oh".

Checking in is in a hotel room? No, it sure isn't. It's just so commonly associated with it that you may think that. As for lookin for lower, whats not to understand? How bout controllers who say "winds are down the pipe at 6 knots"? I dont sit there discussing with my co-worker what the heck thats supposed to mean.

I can see where most of you people disagree with using words like oh instead of zero, but judging by the cybertone of some of these posts, I think people take this issue more seriously than it will ever be. You can't judge a pilot by his professionalism by his ability to say 23 zero rather than 23 oh. This is just my opinion.

You clearly missed the essence of my post.

All I'm asking is why is it so hard to use STANDARD phraseology? Why do some people have a natural propension (?) not to want to be standard and defend it 'til they bleed? Why not abide by the S.O.P. ? It is much less of a headache to be standard, at least to me...

If you are one who expects every pilot everywhere to use English on the frequency, at least shpw the example and be standard.

[frontside_air]

"position and hold/line-up and wait/on to hold/line-up only/position only"... somehow the message gets across. you're going to end up with a lot of grey hairs if you get worked up over every "two-three-oh, here we go/'jax' or 'indie' center/checkin'-in/with you/eleven thousand/double-oh-four on the meter/no-joy/etc/etc". the best thing you can do with is lead by example on the radio (and in general) but the reality is that there are local rules of the playground everywhere you go.



oh and guess what, guard police?- you're on guard too!

[loadshed]

Toronto arrival ATC can be some of the worst offenders for this kind of thing.

"Turn right two-thirty and descend to 6."

"leave 4 on the slope"

ok then!

[Cat Driver]

Why not abide by the S.O.P. ?

Radio phraseology is now written as an SOP?

What do you do when there is no SOP to guide you when something really out of the ordinary happens?

[.......]

Why not abide by the S.O.P. ?

Radio phraseology is now written as an SOP?

What do you do when there is no SOP to guide you when something really out of the ordinary happens?

Ahh c'mon... You're takin' it out of context... I'm meaning as a whole... Of course not all is written in an S.O.P., we're both smarter than this!

[Grey_Wolf]

You clearly missed the essence of my post.

All I'm asking is why is it so hard to use STANDARD phraseology? Why do some people have a natural propension (?) not to want to be standard and defend it 'til they bleed? Why not abide by the S.O.P. ? It is much less of a headache to be standard, at least to me...

If you are one who expects every pilot everywhere to use English on the frequency, at least show the example and be standard.

So then, Why is it that no one ever uses "Over" anymore eh?

And as for Standard Phraseology, how can one be expected to do so when it continually seems to change.
For example "When Ready Descend to ... ; Line Up and Wait Rwy ..."

[flying4dollars]

You clearly missed the essence of my post.

All I'm asking is why is it so hard to use STANDARD phraseology? Why do some people have a natural propension (?) not to want to be standard and defend it 'til they bleed? Why not abide by the S.O.P. ? It is much less of a headache to be standard, at least to me...

If you are one who expects every pilot everywhere to use English on the frequency, at least show the example and be standard.

So then, Why is it that no one ever uses "Over" anymore eh?

And as for Standard Phraseology, how can one be expected to do so when it continually seems to change.
For example "When Ready Descend to ... ; Line Up and Wait Rwy ..."

bingo

[Rockie]

March 27th, 1977
Tenerife, Canary Islands
583 dead.



KLM: Uh, the KLM ... four eight zero five is now ready for take-off ... uh and we're waiting for our ATC clearance.

TENERIFE TOWER: KLM eight seven * zero five uh you are cleared to the Papa Beacon climb to and maintain flight level nine zero right turn after take-off proceed with heading zero four zero until intercepting the three two five radial from Las Palmas VOR.

KLM: Ah roger, sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level nine zero, right turn out zero four zero until intercepting the three two five and we're now (at take-off).

KLM CAPTAIN: We gaan. (We're going)

TENERIFE TOWER: OK.


Since it won't kill you to use standard terminology and not using it quite clearly can, why is there even a debate about this?