Sunwing expands like a mofo!

[Four1oh]

The title reflects my opinion only.




Sunwing hiring Zoom pilots and flight attendants as it grows service to hot spots

17 hours ago

MONTREAL — Sunwing is hiring pilots and flight attendants who formerly worked at Zoom Airlines as the discount travel company expands service to winter hot spots.

Ten Zoom pilots began training Monday, just days after the Ottawa-based vacation airline suddenly stopped flying, stranding thousands of passengers and causing hundreds of layoffs, says Sunwing vice-president Lawrence Elliott.

"We've offered positions to a lot of their staff," he said in an interview.

The privately owned company expects to hire about 300 flight attendants, including up to 100 who worked at Zoom. Jobs could also be available for Air Canada (TSX:AC.B) employees who are slated to be laid off in November when the airline reduces its capacity by seven per cent.

More Zoom staff could be hired but the two companies operated from different bases and flew different aircraft.

Toronto-based Sunwing, which has 800 employees, is on a hiring spree as it prepares to deliver 700,000 seats this winter for Canadian snowbirds.

It serves 33 destinations from 29 Canadian gateways, including communities such as Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., and Val D'Or, Que., that are typically ignored.

The company claims to be the largest Canadian tour operator to Cuba and the second-largest leisure group behind Transat (TSX:TRZ.B).

Sunwing insists that it's in strong financial health despite the challenges of operating in a high-fuel environment. Its fleet of Boeing 737-800s is young and provide three to four per cent fuel savings over competitors.

Falling oil prices will allow the airline to reduce its fuel surcharges next week, Elliott said.

It plans to nearly double the number of aircraft it operates to 15 this winter.

Research Capital analyst Jacques Kavafian had suggested that Sunwing and transatlantic carrier flyglobespan could be among the airlines flying in Canada that could face uncertain futures following Zoom's demise.

But Elliott said Sunwing's business model is very different from Zoom, which relied mostly on the transatlantic market.

While Zoom focused on travel, Sunwing's base is package travel. Most of Sunwing's business goes through travel agents while Zoom sold directly to customers, said Elliott.

"We're low cost but we're not no frills," he said, pointing to free movies and complementary champagne.

Ernst & Young recently named Sunwing's owners Colin and Stephen Hunter as entrepreneurs of the year after reviewing the company's books.

Zoom's demise will have very little impact on Sunwing because it had a very small presence to the south, said Elliott.

"It really has a minimal effect on us, other than the staff."

[double-j]

Hmmm....

Not sure if I agree with your title but as you said, its your opinion.

Are you trying to get a rise outta some folks? as being likened with jetsgo is a huge insult to many..

[Four1oh]

a discussion, yes. a flame war, no. You don't think they seem to be expanding at an unusually high rate?

[imp]

Argg...

Here goes, bear with me...

Sunwing is not an airline. It is a vacation tour operator. They have been around since 1985. Between Red Seal Vacations and Sunwing (consortium), it is one of the largest tour operators in the country.

How did their customers get south before Sunwing Airlines began? By buying space on other carriers or wet-leasing entire airplanes. This costs a lot of money. More money than it does to start your own bus company and drive your customers down there on your own.

This is not at all like JetsGo who bought airplanes and then tried there best to fill them as a reactionary measure. Every summer Sunwing releases a winter sked based on projections and starts selling. Unlike most airlines, they have the luxury of looking at future bookings and making an accurate analysis of how many airplanes they need. They then go to their overseas partners who want to dump their airplanes in the winter and negotiate terms on how many airplanes and crews they will require. This "expansion" is a product of confirmed vacations and they are simply adding the proper number of airplanes to fly these customers.

What happens if bookings slow and they do not require the 15 airplanes? The winter leases are not signed until the fall as I understand, so they trim an airplane or two from overseas and Sunwing itself keeps it's airplane and crew numbers the same.

Another reason why they are hiring so many from Zoom is the fact that Zoom operated a 767 YVR-CUN on behalf of Sunwing and now that is gone. This may mean that they are going to have to add another 737 or two for this loss of lift.

Point is, Sunwing is obviously expanding, but it is doing so as a result of real numbers and requirements. They are reducing the number of contracts with other airlines to carry their passengers and are bringing more of the flying in house.

This business has always existed, they are simply trying to expand their own bus service to meet the need.

I can certainly appreciate the fact that looking at Sunwing as a traditional airline would be troubling seeing how they are expanding. It does look a lot like many airlines that have come and gone, however, you cannot compare them - it is apples and oranges.

Also, every flight I have seen south is always full - you can basically count on having a full load without exception. It is clear to me that they are doing nothing more than meeting demand.

[unregistered]

Another Canadian outfit offering cheap service to the public by (in part) forcing sub-par wages and working conditions on their employees.

This type of thing has been tried in Canada in the past. It hasn't worked before, I see no reason why it should now.

[Four1oh]

Thanks for the reply Imp, interesting food for thought. You did say they've been around since '85, but how long have they been operating planes?

[Stinky]

How did their customers get south before Sunwing Airlines began? By buying space on other carriers or wet-leasing entire airplanes. This costs a lot of money. More money than it does to start your own bus company and drive your customers down there on your own.

Isn't that the same story with Zoom and Itravel2000?

I know very little about it though.

[imp]

They have been operating airplanes since late 2005. Previous to that they were wet-leasing KFC amongst others..

As for Zoom and ITravel2000, there is no comparison. Zoom was a straight airline selling to the public. Sunwing sells vacations and then uses their own airplanes to provide the air portion of the package. ITravel just buys vacation packages from Sunwing, Conquest, Transat, etc and sells them online. They do not put together packages, they just sell them.

Transat and Sunwing basically do the same thing - they each are tour operators that utilize their own aircraft to provide flights.

[arctic ocean]

Does sunwing have a training bond?

[Rubberbiscuit]

Another Canadian outfit offering cheap service to the public by (in part) forcing sub-par wages and working conditions on their employees.

This type of thing has been tried in Canada in the past. It hasn't worked before, I see no reason why it should now.

Who are you talking about here? Sunwing wages are quite good and working conditions are very good. Transat and Skyservice have been around for a long time (by aviation standards), and I don't see why any other vacation airline offering a good product could not succeed. That said nothing is certain in aviation. Even Southwest Airlines is feeling it and have announced reduction in their flight twice in the last 10 days. They have been one of the most profitable airlines over the last decade through 911 etc. That said..... they are selling seats while the vacation airlines such as Sunwing and Transat are selling vacations.

Good luck to all out there in these trying aviation Times, especially to all of you from Zoom still looking!

RB

[Clark Kent]

Does sunwing have a training bond?

I do believe its a 2 year comittement one, 25 K worth. Can anyone double confirm?!!

[mighty mouse]

Another Canadian outfit offering cheap service to the public by (in part) forcing sub-par wages and working conditions on their employees.

This type of thing has been tried in Canada in the past. It hasn't worked before, I see no reason why it should now.

Sub Par wages? try 300 000$ for some of the 737 captains! AND ex-strippers as FAs

[FL020]

300 000???? that's the funniest thing i've heard in a long time!! Just like the 90 000$ captain pay at Zoom??
joke

[whipline]

300,000 is a bit of a stretch. The average Captain makes between 120,000 to 140,000 inclusive of OT and GDO's. If they chose to fly in the UK you can add another 50,000 for expenses. I wouldn't call it sub standard pay.

There is a bond and its 24,000 over two years. This was implemented by the pilots not the company.

Whats the point of this thread four1oh? Are you trying to compare a tour company to a scheduled airline?

[whiteguy]

a discussion, yes. a flame war, no. You don't think they seem to be expanding at an unusually high rate?

I think I'd be more worried about Westjet's rapid expansion this winter. Seems more like Jetsgo than Sunwings does. Especially with $69 fares to LAS!

Just my opinion!

[mixmaster]

On a % basis, Westjets expansion this winter is far less than Sunwing. I work at Westjet and I have friends at Sunwing, and I expect all of us to be still employed by our respective employers next year this time.

[mattedfred]

There is a bond and its 24,000 over two years. This was implemented by the pilots not the company.

why would the pilots implement a training bond?

[jjj]

What Sunwing has in common with Jetsgo is 2 things of great significance.

1 Customer complaints at an epidemic level; and

2 The Ponzi Scheme - using dollars from future bookings to pay today's bills.

I have freinds that work there and I wish them the best - I hate seeing good guys being out of work.

The clock is ticking and I don't expect to see Sunwing around this time next year.

[imp]

Regarding customer complaints - here are the numbers ....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... y/Business

And what exactly do you know about how Sunwing manages its finances? Did you hear something? Buying too many coffee beans perhaps?

[unregistered]

If they chose to fly in the UK you can add another 50,000 for expenses.

Couple of questions for those at Sunwing . . .

1) What happens if you don't chose to fly in the UK for the summer?

2) Are you provided with accommodation, a vehicle, and family travel to/from the UK or is all of that to be included in your alleged $50K for expenses?

I'm just curious, $50K CDN in the UK for all of the above wouldn't go all that far depending on where the bases were.

Thanks in advance for valid responses.

[jjj]

IMP,

Here's a number that speaks volumes. The sticker price on the street for Sunwing is a paltry 21m - oh!, and there aren't any takers. What does that tell you.

Nothing personal - just an opinion - time will tell.

jjj

[whipline]

So word on the "Westjet" street is Sunwing is for sale for 21 million? Not paying their bills? Thats some bold statements, care to back them up? Let me guess, you read them somewhere else and thought you would spread it yourself. But of course you wish nothing but the best.

The pilot group requested that a bond be put in place to protect us from our own. Pilots saying they would make a two year commitment and not honouring it. Its simple. You say you are going to stay for two years and in fact you do stay for two years then nothing to worry about. You lie and leave then you get to pay a small portion back.

The "elleged" per diem. You can live like a king in the UK or you can live like a student. Choice is yours and there is more then enough to do either. The only extra you get if your married/kids is the travel allotment. You get the equivelent of two return tickets for each family member.

[Rubberbiscuit]

IMP,

Here's a number that speaks volumes. The sticker price on the street for Sunwing is a paltry 21m - oh!, and there aren't any takers. What does that tell you.

Nothing personal - just an opinion - time will tell.

jjj

What Sunwing has in common with Jetsgo is 2 things of great significance.

1 Customer complaints at an epidemic level; and

2 The Ponzi Scheme - using dollars from future bookings to pay today's bills.

I have freinds that work there and I wish them the best - I hate seeing good guys being out of work.

The clock is ticking and I don't expect to see Sunwing around this time next year.

"Nothing personal" , I don't thing anyone reading this thread would buy that at this point jjj! I have no idea what Sunwing's book look like, but I am certain you do not either. It was pointed out that Ernst & Young selected the Hunter's as entrepreneurs of the year recently. Let me guess jjj, you heard "they paid off Ernst 7 Young to secure the title". Or maybe Ernst & Young simply are big fans of the "ponzi scheme". IF sunwing uses the "ponzi scheme", it has worked for 25 years and I don't what would stop it from continuing to work. I find it humorous how Sunwing passenger complaints are at "epidemic levels" after reading the Globe & Mail article. Up to 12 from 4 sure.... but Sunwing also increased it's amount of flying proporsionally.

I'm not sure what Sunwing did to send you on a personal vendetta looking for telltale sign of it's demise, but I am sure qurious to hear?!

RB

[Troubleshot]

JJJ,

What a load of horseshit...you expect anyone here to believe that you have secret information about Sunwings financials...absolute nonsense.

I find it funny that a WestJet employee started this thread with obvious intentions (even though he says otherwise) and another WestJet employee slinging fact-less crap to try and defame on another front.

It must just boil your guys blood to think that another company in Canada could be making money....I know what your going to say "that's not true..." yada, yada, yada but you know it is and everyone one on this website knows it too.

So you can tell me that I am way off base here but I know I am right and all other non-cult members will agree with me.

[Valhalla]

You Westjet guys are starting to make a reputation for yourselves...