When are you committed?

[Nark]

At what point to you consider yourself committed to whatever segment of flight?

I'm not talking about V1 or when the thrust reverse is deployed as per SOP.

For my own experience I was landing with a crosswind of VRB @ 6. After dropping a banner I did an immediate cross-wind to final for an intersecting runway landing (17 and KSEE). I usually do this as it saves a few minutes taxiing back to the hanger.

So red flag one was coming in a little fast turning final in the Cub. An established approach generally helps in a good landing, so I'm told. Red Flag two was trusting the ATC's wind call, as their sensors are usually a few degree's and knots off to where I land. There is a windsock where 17 and the 27's intersect but I drop the banner on the other side of that and was focusing on my drop, not what the sock was doing.

I came in with a decent wheel landing. In this case the wind was coming from the right, so I settled the right wheel first then the left touched shortly after. In this bird the left brake grabs a little bit more the the right, and it started a slow left turn rolling down the runway. I normally ride this out and apply a little more right rudder(I try not to use brakes as the prop is very close to the ground), but this time the right wing wanted to takeoff when I wanted to land. So here I am rolling down the runway riding on the left tire, my left wing coming closer and closer to the asphalt. A slow, gentle left turn is becoming aggressive, and the taxi signs and the edge are now approaching faster than I can safely brake without nosing over.

A little voice inside my head told me I have plenty of gas, and the fellow who checked me out said, if in doubt go around. So I fire-walled it and the poor bird and took off again, still in a left turn. I level the wings and start a climb because I'm between the taxiway and runway and I'm not sure how much clearance my tires now have over the taxi signs, but I can guarantee you not much. As luck would have it, I'm climbing directly into a Cherokee on the downwind for the active parallel's. My asshole still puckered, ATC say's winds are now 230 @11. Well no shit. I'd rather take 40* of of the left then 60* to the right. I join behind the Cherokee and come back to land on 27 L. Not a greaser, but didn't take out any sign's so a good one in my books.

To add fuel this fire traffic on 27L is on a different freq then that of 27R, I was talking to the right and quickly had to switch.

The reason I tell this story is that I committed myself to this crosswind landing even before I turned final to drop the banner. I rode it out well beyond where I should have.

Maybe it's because I'm reading "I learned about Flying from that" right now and I'm thinking maybe I need to write a chapter in that book, but I'd like to hear some stories from you guys where you found you committed yourself to something you shouldn't have.

This happened a few weeks ago. I've learned that a taildragger is not the plane to push crosswind limits, personal or demonstrated.


KSEE facility plate

[Ogee]

I don't even know where to begin on that. Maybe I shouldn't. 99% chance you're having us on, but you could be serious and well, I guess that's what this forum is for.

As for your question, I don't know the answer. I've never been committed. Maybe should have been, but never have been.

[Nark]

I may be retarded some times, but I am looking for an honest answer from those who are willing to say, "I messed up and I learned from it."

[Cat Driver]

, "I messed up and I learned from it."

And that is how we all learn Nark.

By the way it is a good sign that you are going in the right direction by asking questions and admitting you think you sort of screwed up.....because we all do.

Some just won't admit it.

[North Shore]

Well, another page in the book of knowledge, another scoop out of the bag of luck! (And another grey hair on your head!)

I guess the smartass answer is that you are committed to your course of action when going on is a safer option than going back. In your case, slamming on the power probably had risk, but less than riding it out..so around you went.

If I may critique, though, IMHO your problems started here:

I usually do this as it saves a few minutes taxiing back to the hanger.

Just about every single time I've managed to scare myself it's been because I've tried to hurry things - shaving off a minute or two here and there. If you do things according to the numbers, it might take a little longer, but it's usually safer, in my (somewhat) limited experience. In this case, you could have damaged your employer's plane to save $5.00 of gas - not the greatest trade-off. Also, you were risking having an awkward talk to save your job: "Tell me, Nark, why did you opt to take the crosswind rather than the straight into wind?"

Anywayssss, that's my $.02. Glad to hear that it worked out. Safe flying!

A.

[FamilyGuy]

"If in doubt - chicken out" rings in my ears everytime I do something "marginal" from what I was trained to do OR have done before (bad complacency aside).

Seems to me the fact you went around AND lived to question it is all there is to say about the matter. You know more than anyone here what works and what doesn't in that particular scenario. I think you've answered your own question nicely.

[ahramin]

It is really a judgment call which depends on the exact circumstances. In actual fact you are never committed. Things may get so bad that you can't go and can't stop, so you do whichever one is least damaging. Going around and almost hitting a sign is bad, but maybe if you had stayed on the ground you would have hit the sign. Don't fall into the trap of specifying a point where you are committed no matter what, because you just can't know what no matter what will turn out to be.

There is a story of a student pilot in the military who had a bad landing on a solo flight. It got so bad that he applied full power and went around. The go around veered off the runway, almost hit 3 or 4 things (including a building) but ended up in a normal circuit and landing. The CO was watching and afterwards explained that he was almost down to taxi speed and pointed out all the things he almost hit. But at the end of the day, it worked. Planes can still be wrecked at taxi speeds.

In the King Air once final flap is set we are committed to landing because go arounds from full flap are unsafe. But at the same time, plowing into a fuel truck that just drove onto the runway is unsafe as well. There is no committed, just a bunch of options. Picking the safest one is the trick.

[Ogee]

My apologies, Nark.

Thanks to the others who took seriously what I should have.

[Rockie]

Great decision to go around Nark. Everything about aviation from the time you contemplate going flying until the engine whines, coughs or rattles to a stop is an exercise in risk assessment and mitigation. There are routine times when you cannot avoid being "committed", but it helps to know when those times are so that you can stack the deck in your favour as much as possible. The rest of the time you should always have an out.

[Hedley]

In actual fact you are never committed

Not quite. If you're really low on gas, or you've got a tremendous
load of ice, or you've got an engine out, or you've sustained
structural damage (the list goes on, and on), attempting to
overshoot can be a very poor choice. Best get it on the
ground sooner (under control) than later (out of control).

However. If everything is working, if it doesn't feel good, get
out of there.

P.S. With experience, a tailwind/crosswind with a taildragger
isn't a big deal. Like anything else, you get used to it over time,
as your skill develops. Last year at an airshow in Central
America, I landed (as planned) with a 20 knot tailwind. No
biggie.

[wheeliedriver]

you're not committed until your engines quit

but good call on the go around, you were uncomfortable with the crosswind component and your own ability to handle it. Judging your own ability is the toughest call to make - especially in front of other people. Well handled. But correct me if I'm wrong, we're talking about an 11kt crosswind?

[Nark]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Anyone else like to fess up with a story? I feel like I'm in a fishbowl, I'm sure some of you have some doosies.


Wheelie:

My limit is 12 kts in this bird, but in this case it was compounded with a higher approach speed. It could have been 4 kts and I probably would have done the same thing if I was pushed over like I was.

['effin hippie]

Nark.

Here's one of my favorites. I've told it here before, but you might ID with it a bit 'cause you know the places and planes involved, although you might have left N Sk when it happened.

There was a big front of freezing rain that left every strip along L Athabasca slicker than Obama. I was going into ZFD in ZOW (a straight 'ho) loaded out of one of the mines and I had picked up some ice on the way in. When I selected flap I got nothing due a frozen limit switch, which was about par for the course up there, I'm sure you'll recall.

Anyway I was suddenly very f***ing stressed out about the very slippery 3500' in front of me along with the 10 KT jump in my ref speed. I got very focused on keeping the landing short and slow. To sum up, I d-r-a-g-g-e-d in the last 1/2 mile or so and even added power on short final, very low on the glidepath, which we were loath to do in the navajo because stage cooling was so pounded into our heads. The moment I applied back pressure to round out at the threshold the A/C gave one quick little shake and dropped like a rock. Not very far so it was just a shitty landing. But the point is that I'd dragged that thing in a knot or 2 above the stall for who knows? More than a 1/4 mile anyway. Completely forgot about the ice I'd picked up. I am sure its the closest to dying I have yet been in an airplane.

My point about commitment is that here I'd committed to the wrong thing(s), first, landing in ZFD when longer strips were not too far away, and second, keeping the landing short above all else.
As opposed to committing to a phase of flight, I agree with the idea that we commit to priorities when we operate, such as the centerline and the PAPI's when we're landing. If you commit yourself to the correct things when executing any phase of flight you will be putting yourself in the best position to complete it safely.
In agreement with N Shore, all too often we commit to saving as much time as possible, which definitely, in my experience throughout life has contributed the every stupid thing I have ever done.

Anyway, hope this helps. Glad to see you made it home, Boobs.

ef

[mcrit]

Hey Nark, good call to go around. Don't feel bad, we have all been in the that type of situation at one point or another. Mine came after I had a few hours on an SE5. I had been used to wheeling in on with around a 10-15kt head wind. On the 4th or 5th flight I had a bit of a tail wind and got into that ugly area between a 3 pointer and a wheel. The mains touched, the tail went down, forward vis became shite, the a/c went airborn again, and I started thinking, "Not where I want to be". I went around, came in, planted it on the mains, cut the power and learned from that.
As for when you are committed, it really depends on the situation. As a general rule of thumb, you can pretty much always go around.

[. ._]

OK, I've only HAD to do a go around once.

Was practicing x-wind circuits in a Zlin in the Soo. There was light rain, and the wind was maxed out for the limit of the SOPs at Sault College. If I remember correctly it was 15kts for a student solo. The max demonstrated in the Zlin is 20kts I think.

Anyways, being the novice pilot I was at the time. (I'm not much better now.) I was all lined up, and gusty-gusty, plant the mains, and skid WAAAAY over on the wet runway. I went around.

The tower then informed that the winds were 20kts gusting to 30kts. Or it might have been 15 gusting to 25.

I made an UGLY landing after the next circuit, but stayed on the runway.

Not too exciting conditions for experienced pilots, but when you're a crappy beginner student, it can be a handful.

-istp

[ottawa,kan]

I fessed up awhile back to a real ugly downwind landing in my Stinson. The 108-3 has a huge tail, and no more rudder than the 108-1 and 2. I get the impression from some other pilots that it's harder to handle in a cross wind than the smaller butt Stinsons. I've since sold my share and have been flying a Cherokee 180 lately, and I tell you flying that nosedragger is a breeze compared to the Stinson. Almost boring. Anyway my mistake was I really really needed a bathroom, jungle tummy was out of control. I went into a little airport with no awos, on a pretty gusty day. I was commited to land probably 10 miles before I got there, and listened to the awos at a nearby airport, had my landing all planned out, had my buthole pinched off hard, and was biting my tongue and smashing my thigh to keep the gas ( and etc) contained. So anyway I completly missed the windsock, and landed with a 10 or more knot tailwind, crossing from my right. I was ALL over and off the runway until I gave a big punch of power and got some rudder back. Really really ugly. But damned educational, that's for sure.