National Pilots' Association?

[U/S]

Hey guys and gals I know there has been talk of setting up a national association of pilots (like every other group of professionals in the country) in the past on this forum, and a few months ago the last time I was on the forum it sounded like some were taking steps toward actually doing it. Does anyone know what happpened? or has the idea been dropped?

[ahramin]

Nope, it is alive and kicking. But on vacation for the summer. Click here:

http://www.avcanada.ca/membership.html

[Noob]

Curious if this is still in motion?

[Cat Driver]

http://www.ngpa.org/

[Widow]

C'mon Cat, the pilots need something - not just the gay ones . Nobody else is protecting their rights.

The association started here fell apart, someone here longer than I could tell you more ... I remember it being discussed in the not all that distant past.

And recommended by a TC official during the hearings on Bill C-7 (then C-6), in spring '07.

Edited to add thread about said TC official: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=31423

[Cat Driver]

widow, I posted that link to demonstrate that if a group truly want to form an association they can, it all depends on just how important it is to any group I guess.

By the way if the pilot group ever do get around to starting an association for the betterment of pilots I would be pleased to help them out.

[Johnny767]

It is very much, alive and well.

The MOT is looking to get out of licensing, the proposed "National Association" will then become a self-regulating body.

Much like the "The Canadian Bar Association" or the "Chartered Accountants of Canada."

Lets hope it comes to fruition, would be an outstanding improvement to the profession.

[Cat Driver]

It is very much, alive and well.

Where?

Who is working on it?

[Widow]

Johnny, you say it is alive and well ... do you have any information on who is involved in the formation/development of the association? I'm sure there are many people who would like to have input before it becomes a fait accompli ... especially if it is a TC initiative.

[Johnny767]

Hi Widow:

You could certainly call ACPA:

http://www.acpa.ca/

They have people in on the ground floor, as do Westjet, Jazz and most the other carriers. I'm not sure where the representation is coming from General Aviation, possibly the CBAA?

[Johnny767]

I only have a sketchy outline, but, I am enthusiastic about what I am hearing.

The MOT ( as they did with SMS ) wants out of licensing.

So who is in the running to take it over? The employers (god forbid) or the Pilots themselves, as is common with other professions.

[goldeneagle]

I only have a sketchy outline, but, I am enthusiastic about what I am hearing.

The MOT ( as they did with SMS ) wants out of licensing.

So who is in the running to take it over? The employers (god forbid) or the Pilots themselves, as is common with other professions.

In case you haven't noticed, the 'employers' already have most of the licensing in house today. You do all renewal and type rides on the employers equipment (simulator or aircraft), typically under the watchful eye of a company check pilot, who then issues whatever ratings etc are required. It's quite possible that joe pilot with a fresh atpl has never seen an actual transport inspector for anything but processing the paperwork, and never will see anything but a 'company check pilot' for the rest of the flying career.

On the initial licensing side, it was long ago offloaded to the schools. They do the training, do the flight test, and I believe as of recently, also administer the written exams. The only participation by transport in the process, is to file the paperwork and mail off a license (and invoice). Believe it or not, the schools that do all this, are one of them hated 'employers' everybody here likes to rag on so much.

As for how well a union or association will stand up for the junior guys, history already tells that story for anybody interested in the facts. Airline pilot unions accepted the two tier pay system to protect the wages of the senior guys, at the expense of the newcomers, read up on the history of two tier pay scales in the 80's. I wouldn't get my hopes up that any kind of pilots association will have any fundamental difference to how the industry works, history shows us, they didn't step up in the past, no reason to expect them to step up to the plate and bat for the junior guys in the future. Pilots unions are all about maximizing the effect of the seniority number, and maximizing benefits for the folks with the better numbers. The single most troublesome part of the absorption of Canadian into AC was dealing with the pilots, and thier precious seniority numbers. The squabbling over how to merge those lists went on forever, and the folks with an original AC number proved to the world, they could care less about the folks who held a number from the other operation, they wanted to make darn sure the AC seniority number was 'worth more' than the Canadian number. If you had left it up to the air canada pilots association, all of the Canadian guys woulda been dropped into the mess as new hires, and forced to start over from scratch. Now that's a fine example of 'standing up for your brethern', and exactly what I would expect from any pilots association, an attitude of 'screw the rest of you, it's all about me.'

[Johnny767]

The single most troublesome part of the absorption of Canadian into AC was dealing with the pilots, and thier precious seniority numbers. The squabbling over how to merge those lists went on forever, and the folks with an original AC number proved to the world, they could care less about the folks who held a number from the other operation, they wanted to make darn sure the AC seniority number was 'worth more' than the Canadian number. If you had left it up to the air canada pilots association, all of the Canadian guys woulda been dropped into the mess as new hires, and forced to start over from scratch. Now that's a fine example of 'standing up for your brethern', and exactly what I would expect from any pilots association, an attitude of 'screw the rest of you, it's all about me.'

No truer words have been spoken. That is, one of the many issues, that has precipitated the start of a "Canadian College of Professional Pilots! My name, picked out of thin air....

The Association will take over the administration of Commercial and ATP Licensing, not the Sim rides etc, that is currently done by the employers. They will also have full control to revoke a license for such issues as, "professional misconduct."

The "Airline Transport Pilot License" exam would be administered by the Association.

As is the case with Lawyers and CA's Professional exams.

That was my point about the employers, do you want the Airlines to have control over YOUR LICENSE? At the moment that company Check Pilot can fail you, BUT he cannot touch your license. That perogative lies with the regulator, the MOT.

That regulator for all licensing issues, will become our own Professional Association.

The MOT IS getting out of licensing, we had better be proactive and pay attention.

Raise the bar, raise the pay, get back the respect the profession deserves!

It also (if we are smart) has the ability to make our Profession, transferable. With the Association having a National seniority list. This concept is certainly...out there... at the moment.

Putting an end to the BS that has gone on at Air Canada.

[Rockie]

Just to put a balanced perspective on it, while neither party in the AC/CA merger behaved in a very exemplary manner, the CA group walked away with all the marbles and aren't willing to give any back. Don't lay it all on one group's doorstep.

The thought of a national association is pretty good, but it will never be all that you envision wrt national seniority and common working conditions. Doctors, Lawyers and engineers police themselves when it comes to standards which is why they are considered "professionals". Doctors, teachers etc. have pretty much a common employer so standard industry wages aren't that hard to negotiate for them, but we can't do that. Lawyers and Engineers charge whatever they can get away with individually based on how good they are, and we can't do that either. An informal seniority system in a small clinic to determine vacation is pretty easy, but in a pilot group of 3500 it has to be very rigid or chaos ensues.

But on the plus side if an association representing every licenced pilot stood in front of a bunch of TV cameras demanding change to Canada's bronze age flight and duty time regulations I think that would be a very good thing.

[Johnny767]

Just to put a balanced perspective on it, while neither party in the AC/CA merger behaved in a very exemplary manner, the CA group walked away with all the marbles and aren't willing to give any back. Don't lay it all on one group's doorstep.

Pretty bold statement, from a POST MERGER Pilot.

[Rockie]

Being post merger I can view it objectively from the outside, so no, not a bold statement at all. A perfect merger is one where no one's working conditions or relative position on the new list vs. the old one changes substantially. That plainly didn't happen here. The reason I said that was to keep the discussion balanced and not place the blame on one group over the other, which is the principle behind what you're proposing in the first place...isn't it?

[Johnny767]

Rockie:

Lets say Air Canada lays off 120 Pilots, as is proposed. Those 120 Pilots stay out for two years, for the sake of the argument.

Westjet hires like crazy and continues to eats Air Canada's lunch, domestically.

Air Canada and Westjet merge.

Since you have bought into the OAC (it is all about me) merger philosophy, what do we do with the 120 unemployed Air Canada Pilots.

Maybe..you..are one of them?

Time to fix it, for the next generation of Pilots.

[Rockie]

If a company merges with another (say WJ and AC) and I was 50% down the list of AC and ended up 50% down the list in the new company, then that is no change for me and I'm happy. If I'm 99% down the list and end up 99% down the list, then that's no change for me and I'm happy. The fact that a 30 year old from WJ ends up in front of me doesn't bother me.

Does that answer your question? Does that sound "it's all about me" enough for you?

You sound like you're hung up about date of hire instead of keeping your working conditions. How does that solve anything today? And while we're talking about it, won't a national seniority list constrain a company from hiring who they want instead of what number happens to come up? Westjet likes multitasking lounge singers and stand up comics who also know how to fly. Air Canada doesn't. Shouldn't they both get to hire who they want?

[Widow]

IMHO, it is the GA population that needs this type of thing more than any other sector. Airlines and large carriers already have some protection by way of existing associations and unions. What about the bush pilots and instructors ... the low time pilots just getting started? All this crap about training bonds ...

There are so many threads going right here on the first page of this forum that prove how badly SOME protection is needed ... TCCA does not give a rat's a$$ about your occupational health and safety, and the Minister of Labour doesn't seem to care either.

[Cat Driver]

widow....it is a Canadian thing called apathy, as long as something does not affect them they are content to let everyone else suffer.

[ScudRunner]

http://www.ngpa.org/

Is this something your really going to get behind Cat?

[Cat Driver]

Is this something your really going to get behind Cat?

Quite to the contrary Skudrunner I posted it to show that any group who really wants to form an association can do so if they want to bad enough.

Your just using the words " get behind " sends shivers of revulsion down my back.

[North Shore]

rather behind than in front, though!