A serious discussion about marijuana.

[robbreid]

[orbit]

don't start going on about legalities!!!

I agree with that wether alcohol, pot or any drugs....legal or not,,,
the issue is pilots responsibility to himself and passengers!

[sky's the limit]

don't start going on about legalities!!!

Why not?

stl

[jpilot77]

I think marijuana is seen as more benign than it is. The amount of THC present is far higher than even 20 years ago. The British Medical establishment pushed for decriminlisation of mari back in the late 90s and last year reversed their position. Their reasoning was that it was far more detrimental to mental health, than originaly thought.

I find smoking just doesn't fit with my persona as a pilot. Just like I would want a surgeon who toked operating on me, I wouldn't want a pilot that smoked flying me. Sometimes you have to leave things behind in life. But if your recreation is that more important to you than have fun hope you don't get caught.

[E-Flyer]

Marijuana stays in your body and f*cks you up for weeks - that's why drug testing works so well and why you will never fly for a serious company if you smoke up. EVERY holder of an FAA license can be randomly tested and charged. Some large Canadian companies drug test too (my employer had me pee to see). I have heard that if you arrive in the US with even a Canadian license you can be forced to pee.

Fun and good drug etc. etc. but why put your career on the line for a little whoopee?

edited to correct blood/body and add some stuff.

Exactly... go and get laid instead, aren't pilot's famous for that?

lol

I have no respect for pilot's who even consider drugging them selves up, if you're a pilot it's a commitment when flying, when walking to and from the gate, when eating, when speaking... it's you're life whether that's fortunate or unfortunate. Smoking weed is just uncalled for and I hope the pilot's who are for it to be legal have karma bust their ass one day.


I think if an airline asks you at an interview what you would do if your Captain smells like pot, I would report him with no doubt. I believe that's what the airline is looking for, two smart people up front who are FIT TO FLY. The smell of weed it self can intoxicate your body while on duty, especially when you're at 5000 or 6000 pressure altitude and there's substantially less oxygen, the effects of the drug will be greater. It's like your fuel/air mixture except oxygen/weed mixture.

Don't believe me? read and educate yourself.


I respect pilot's who are true pilot's, professionals who take care of them selves and people they share their lives with... true leaders.

'nuff said

[B-rad]

.

[angry inch]

The other day I had a few passengers who reeked like "the kind" so badly, I'm pretty sure I got a little high off of them... I really thought about it seriously when I was leaning against the vending machine in the terminal, snacking on chips...

[trey kule]

It seems there is some disagrement to the effects of the drug, and opinions on legality. Just a quick thought, but these issues are only of any real interest if you are using, or plan to use the drug. Otherwise, they simply are non-issues.

I going to restate the quote......

if you use it.. you are not a professional pilot. end of the issue for me.

[jpilot77]

Second that.

[orbit]

I 3rd it....

[E-Flyer]

4th

[Sulako]

I am enjoying the complete BS and hysteria - to a point - but I have to chime in with a little reality check.

Alcohol is a far, far more damaging drug than marijuana. When is the last time you have seen a fist-fight at a concert between two guys who were only high on weed? When I flew medevacs I saw dozens and dozens of people who were in our plane because they drank too much, and yet I never saw a single patient on our stretcher as a result of marijuana use - and I used to ask our medics about this histories of every single patient to pass the time in cruise. Hell, you can drink yourself to death with $40 worth of vodka if you try, yet there has never, ever, in the entire recorded history of the world, been a single case of a person dying directly from smoking too much pot. Never. It can kill you if a 200lb bale of it falls on your head from a great height, but that's about it.

The single biggest danger of marijuana use is the risk of being convicted of a drug offense and losing your license and/or ability to cross the border.

I know several pilots who enjoy the occasional doobie on their time off. All of them fly airplanes for money, and all of them do it safely. How do they manage this superhuman feat? Those magic words "Time off". See, when you smoke a joint you aren't stoned forever - it wears off, just like booze. Other than the legality, I see zero difference between smoking a joint on a Friday night and reporting for work on a Monday than drinking a case of beer on a Friday and reporting for work on the same Monday. Can anyone enlighten me?

The smell of weed it self can intoxicate your body while on duty, especially when you're at 5000 or 6000 pressure altitude and there's substantially less oxygen, the effects of the drug will be greater. It's like your fuel/air mixture except oxygen/weed mixture.

I especially like that one. I'm assuming that you mean "The smoke given off by burning marijuana can intoxicate your body" rather than the simple smell. If you are actually coming here and posting that the actual smell of unburned marijuana alone can get someone stoned, I'm sorry but that is a completely asinine thing to say, and I can't take you seriously any more and won't bother replying to your responses.

It does however make me giggle to think of a guy bringing that as a defense to a trial. "Your honor, I wasn't smoking at all, but my friend had some that wasn't in a sealed bag, and I happened to smell it. I remember getting really hungry for Doritos, and that's when I must have blacked out and hit the school bus full of Russian Orphans."

Which brings me to urine testing for marijuana use. The thing about it that is stupid is that it can't tell if you are actually stoned, it can only tell if you may have been exposed to marijuana in the past few weeks.

"Smoking a single marijuana cigarette produces THC metabolites that are detectable for several days with the cannabinoid assay (4). THC can accumulate in body fat, creating higher excretion concentrations and longer detectability. If an affect on performance is the main reason for screening, the urine cannabinoid test result alone cannot indicate performance impairment or assess the degree of risk associated with the person's continuing to perform tasks. If a history of marijuana use is the major reason for screening, the urine test for cannabinoids should be able to detect prior use for up to 2 weeks in the casual user and possibly longer in the chronic user."

I highlighted the important part of xsbank's cut n paste from the CDC website. It even says that the only thing a pee test is good for is determining whether or not a person has been exposed to marijuana in the past while.

I am not aware of any mandatory drug tests in Canada except for the pre-employment urine test at Air Canada - I imagine that the other major airlines might also do something like that. I have heard ZERO talk of pee testing for corporate operators and I am based at one of the largest airports in Canada, and happen to talk a lot to the other pilots around here. I am happy with that - Why should I have my privacy invaded and be treated like a criminal with no good reason.

Anyway, I'm not saying (nor do I believe) that anyone should operate any heavy machinery if they feel their performance has been in the slightest way affected by drug use - that's simple risk management, which we all generally adhere to.

What I am saying is that what a person does on their own time in the privacy of their own home is none of my business as long as they show up to work bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. I don't care if they relax by smoking a joint or by drinking a beer, or by watching "Tranny Grannies" on DVD while dressed as Aunt Gertrude - as long as they are fit for duty when they show up to fly, my interest in their personal lives is zero and I am not going to judge them for what they do on their own time.

[Dash-Ate]

reefer madness strikes avcanada

[niss]

Do you believe that a person who gets caught boating drunk should have their drivers license removed even though there are separate licenses for boating and driving?

[B-rad]

.

[2R]

Peyote is a natural plant product .Anyone here tried flying an airplane after peyote ???
or some of the other natural products found in the garden ?such as the many interesting mushrooms growing in the forest???

I wonder if i could get a government grant to study the effects of peyote on pilots ?

[iflyforpie]

It seems there is some disagrement to the effects of the drug, and opinions on legality. Just a quick thought, but these issues are only of any real interest if you are using, or plan to use the drug. Otherwise, they simply are non-issues.

I going to restate the quote......

if you use it.. you are not a professional pilot. end of the issue for me.

+5

[xsbank]

Hi Sully,

I really don't GARA what anyone does on their own time (I draw the line at locking your kids in the basement for 25 years). What we are discussing is whether or not you will get and keep your job.

"Which brings me to urine testing for marijuana use. The thing about it that is stupid is that it can't tell if you are actually stoned, it can only tell if you may have been exposed to marijuana in the past few weeks".

I never actually thought that the purpose of drug-testing was to see if you were impaired at that moment. Part of the problem with marijuana is its effects are not readily apparent (check out your teenagers' pupils late Friday night!) whereas alcohol is. Most corporations, correctly or not, want their flight crews to have a certain image and in exchange they will hire you to fly their jets. Like wearing jeans to an interview, you won't get the job.

That old chestnut about alcohol = bad and weed = good is a red herring and has no bearing on this discussion.

Whether or not the basis of this testing was legality, image or whatever, the point is, test positive and don't get the job.

Now, if you want a comparison, is it ok to fly hung-over? You've passed the 12 hr bottle-to-throttle rule, so legally you are fit. Does anyone else think that's a stupid idea? The marijuana stays in your system in detectable quantities for days - is it all right to fly after having been stoned a couple of days ago? I don't think there is a direct comparison, but let's use my favourite scenario - you touch down at the 1200 foot mark and unfortunately a tire picks that moment to fail. You lose control, drive through the terminal but nobody, including you, is hurt. You are drug-tested by the police and the insurance company. You fail because you smoked up Friday night and even though its Tuesday and your first day of work, there is detectable levels in your (pick a body fluid). You are fired, you are charged with an offense and the insurance company tells your company in a polite letter to piss up a rope. And what if somebody was injured and they sue you, after your company and the terminal owner and the fire department costs. Was it worth it to "get a little mellow?"

What would happen to that BA crew who landed short in Heathrow if they tested positive? Not much imagination required there.

I think that you can argue til you're blue in the face about how great it is to smoke up, and what rights you have on your own spare time, but I think that a person who makes their living from driving other people's equipment around with other people depending on them is certifiable if they smoke marijuana.

[Just another canuck]

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[Rockie]

I'll just piggyback what xsbank said. If you want to smoke drugs it's your life, but find another line of work.

[SRV]

One thing to be aware of in any "medical research" report is who funded the research and what is the agenda.

The intent is usually to sway the public into accepting a unilateral (often illegal) government action.

['effin hippie]

Good God.

Are we still on about this? Who the F*** resurrected this thing anyway?

The dude on page two lays it out: if busted you are fucked. Seriously, permanently, humiliatingly, bankrupted fucked.

Don't ingest weed when there is ANY chance that its presence in your body will be connected with your operation of an airplane.
This situation exists because we still live in a puritanical, over-bearing, nanny-state where douche-bags will use any excuse they can find to try and dictate what you may or may not do. Tough, but there it is.

Now maybe we can get back to fun stuff like bonds and unions and TC and VAL and whether instructors or bush guys make better jet pilots...

ef

[Sulako]

You lose control, drive through the terminal but nobody, including you, is hurt. You are drug-tested by the police and the insurance company. You fail because you smoked up Friday night and even though its Tuesday and your first day of work, there is detectable levels in your (pick a body fluid). You are fired, you are charged with an offense and the insurance company tells your company in a polite letter to piss up a rope. And what if somebody was injured and they sue you, after your company and the terminal owner and the fire department costs. Was it worth it to "get a little mellow?"

I think we are talking about 2 different things here. I think you are saying that it's not worth the risk, while I am saying that marijuana isn't particularly harmful to most people, and that I wouldn't care if I flew with someone who had smoked a joint the previous weekend, as long as they weren't still impaired.

I'm not debating the legality, and again I reiterate that the biggest risk of smoking pot is the risk of a run-in with the authorities. I also get that a pilot smoking pot on their days off still isn't a good image in the eyes of the general public, nor in the eyes of a prospective employer. It's up to the person smoking to decide if the risk is worth it.

I would like to see marijuana (not coke, or heroin, or speed, just pot) legalized and taxed. I think it would serve a pretty big blow to organized crime in Canada, as well as opening up a HUGE source of tax revenue that could go into our health care funding.

Here's an interesting little article called "Cannabis and its Effects on Pilot Performance and Flight Safety: A Review" done by the Aussie Transportation Safety Board in 2004.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/200 ... rmance.pdf

It said (not surprisingly) that cannabis use does negatively affect pilot performance for up to 24 hours after smoking a joint. It recommends that pilots not fly within 24 hours of smoking a joint. It also says that some pilots can exhibit subtle impairment after 24 hours, but the majority do not.

There is also another study, "Carry-over effects of marijuana intoxication on aircraft pilot performance: a preliminary report" that says the same thing. Marijuana use can affect a pilots performance for up to 24 hours after smoking even 1 joint.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... 42/11/1325

Let's check out a final article, which references the previous 2 and adds some nice tables and charts and stuff.

This one goes by the name "Cannabis and flying"

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/ ... nnfly.html




After 48 hours, all the smokers were back to baseline measurements.

So after reading that it appears to me both studies suggest there would be little harm in smoking a joint on a Friday night and reporting for work on the Monday morning.

Except of course for the legal part, but we have already talked about that.

[AUGER9]

So after reading that it appears to me both studies suggest there would be little harm in smoking a joint on a Friday night and reporting for work on the Monday morning.

So if you were do for brain surgery Monday morning, how would you feel if your surgeon was high as a kite Friday night?

Maybe it goes a little bit beyond the effects of mj, and we as pilots should start holding ourselves to higher standards and show a little more professionalism.

[Just another canuck]

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