Definition of training bond and why it's wrong.

[outsider]

So, for those of you out there that agree with Bond's, here is something for you to read.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage

[Pratt X 3]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... =douchebag

[outsider]

hahahaha, not bad , but more proof of how pathetic we as pilots really are.

[Duncan Idaho]

So if I'm an indentured servant, do I get free dental?

[outsider]

Maybe, but then you have to sign a five year bond for dental

[sarg]

Tell us the truth Outsider, you cann't really read can you? I'll try to use small words so you can understand (get) what people have been saying. I'll type slowly for you as well. What is called a training bond in aviation (the world of planes) is really a contact. The pilot gets something of value, training and PPC. The company gets the service of a newly trained pilot or their money back. A contract is negotiated (talked about) by two parties (the pilot and the company) then signed making it a legal document. Would you feel better if companies and pilot called them training contracts.

Now once again in you don't like the terms of the contract (bond) negotiate (talk about) some changes so you are happy. If you are unsuccessful (have failed) don't sign the contract.
You asked before what to about the bad companies that treat people poorly, don't sign the contract walk away, guess what if no one flys for them they will change the bond or working conditions or both. Or they go bankrupt, and maybe some one better will take their place.

The people that whine about traing bonds (contracts) still will take that the job, signing the bonds and enabling (letting) the poor companies continued operation. They do this so they can fly at AC, Jazz, or Westjet in 5 years instead of 7 years. By doing so they continue to screw everyone in the industry. Your coming here saying walk away, don't pay, only lends support to the me first screw everyone else attitude (point of view) that got us here in the first place.

PS. Nice to see you're trying to look thing up to further you education, but try read and understand what your links actually say. BTW a little of the pot calling the kettle black with the strong behind the computer comment.

[B-rad]

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[outsider]

SARG

that's the problem in aviation, we are all whores, someone will sign the bond, no matter how many people say no and walk away. So whats next , three months with no pay. I'm sure someone out there will agree to it just to have a job. I would agree to a six month bond. And I agree that pilots jumping ship for better positions is wrong. It all comes down to mutual respect. Instead of tossing around insults, does anyone have a better alternative to the standard two year bond. I'm sorry if I don't take the side of an airline over some poor kid who is already up to their neck in dept , who already paid for flight school, worked the ramp or dispatch for a year and then gets a right seat job for 20,000 a year , then has to agree to a two year bond to a company, and if that same company loses a contact or route that kid would be out the door faster than it takes to write his or her lay off notice. And before everyone here picks up for the side of the airline, if Airline A hires you away from airline B knowing that you have time left on a bond with them, then aren't they a little guilty as well, wouldn't it serve them right if Airline C comes in and tries to higher away some of their crew. As I said everyone is a Whore in this business. Can anyone think of a better idea than putting all the responsibility on the pilot by making them agree to a two year bond.

[pilotbzh]

IF ALPA, CALPA and a representation of the West Jet pilot group could publish a letter denoncing the abuses, the company involve and advise that pilot accepting to buy into those scams will not be accepted in there organisation it would put a end to those buy your job scams.....

I understand company that want to make you reinburse the training if you leave before they recovered the cost, but do not advance a cent, sign all you want within reason, but don't advance any money for your training on type, if the company that hires you need you to have a type on your licence they can finance it. Your not they're bank....

[Cat Driver]

As I said everyone is a Whore in this business

O.K. outsider I guess one could use that analogy to describe pilots.

But there are whores and there are whores, some of us are very high paid who are very particular who we whore out to, some are just street crack whores who will let anyone fu.k them.

It is the crack whores who are your problem not us high class types.

[mattedfred]

IF ALPA, CALPA and a representation of the West Jet pilot group could publish a letter denoncing the abuses, the company involve and advise that pilot accepting to buy into those scams will not be accepted in there organisation it would put a end to those buy your job scams.....

minor point but CALPA doesn't exist anymore

this would be great but i feel that ALPA would be hard pressed to do so given the possibility of legal action being taken by any companies named

i also know that ALPA does not have any say in the pilots that jazz hires for instance. take the college grads that were hired at jazz this past year as an example.

i believe that as long as you pay your dues then you are considered a member in good standing.

i think the answer to this problem is a canadian college of commercial pilots with it's own code of conduct and membership rules

[sarg]

Tell us the truth Outsider, you cann't really read can you? I'll try to use small words so you can understand (get) what people have been saying. I'll type slowly for you as well. What is called a training bond in aviation (the world of planes) is really a contact. The pilot gets something of value, training and PPC.

WHat????? a PPC isnt valuable!!!! its only fucking valuable to the companies who need you to have it. its worth nothing to you individually. or do you mean so you can use it to boost you to the next PPC that is just as invaluable to you that only THE COMPANY needs you to have. its really worth nothing to you.

hey you NEED ME to be trained on this kinda plane.. if you show me how to help you succeed i will be in your debt.. does that make sense?? gimmie a god dam break.its only because pilots are a bunch of pussies who are too much of a hurry and want to get to the top that they make the world of flying crumble around them. i cant stand the type who want everything right now. why dont you enjoy what you have and take time to stop and smell the roses? then maybe people can stick around at a company long enough for the industry to regain its self respect.

B-rad, you've got the same problem as outsider, re-read my 3rd paragraph.

[Ogee]

There are all kinds of businesses that spend a lot more on training employees than do small air carriers using Navajo's and King Air's and that class of airplanes, even 1900's. None of those companies, not one that I know of, indenture their employees with training bonds.

Training a pilot is part of the cost of operating an aviation company. If the work conditions, salary, and all of the other things that go into making a good ongoing relationship between employer and employee don't exist, then no court of law is going to enforce that relationship between a company and a pilot. It is not in the public interest to do so, and all contracts which are not in the public interest will not be enforced by the courts.

I am going to suggest a solution to this which takes into account the investment the company makes in a PPC. Transport Canada should make a PPC company specific, i.e. it lapses when the pilot moves outside of that company.

That way the company doesn't own years of the pilot's life, the pilot doesn't "own" the PPC.

[Cat Driver]

I am going to suggest a solution to this which takes into account the investment the company makes in a PPC. Transport Canada should make a PPC company specific, i.e. it lapses when the pilot moves outside of that company.

They could care less about pilots or companies, anyone with an IQ over 40 would never have put that regulation in place to start with.

Don't hold your breath waiting for TC do do something that makes sense.

[outsider]

Actually the high class whore's could be considered a shade worse than their crack counterparts who are to green to know the difference, they have the money and brains to be something else, but still they remain ...... just a whore nonetheless.

[Cat Driver]

So do you consider yourself a high paid whore or a crack whore outsider?

[outsider]

upper middle class, but maybe you can introduce me to your pimp so I can get more bucks for my bangs.

[Cat Driver]

I really feel better when I can give good advice to the younger generation outsider, you have to get to a level where you do not need a pimp to really get good bucks for your bang.

I do not need a pimp.

[x-wind]

Ogee, that an interesting idea..

What are others views on making a PPC company specific? Would training bonds go away?

[odf]

What are others views on making a PPC company specific? Would training bonds go away

No, it wouldn't make training bonds go away, but it might decrease the need for them. As it stands, there are companies who advertise for pilots like this. "xxhours experience on type and current PPc required" This operator is reducing his training cost signifigantly because his competitors train his pilots. This is the type of operator that some on this forum would class as a good operation because he doesn't require a training bond. Of course he doesn't require a training bond, he does very little training. If PPC's were company specific than obviously every company would incur their own expense. It is pilots going back on their word that causes companies to have training bonds. I disagree with anyone having to pay for their PPC but backing up their word with a little collateral suits me just fine, and that is in my opinion, all a training bond is

[Hiflyer2]

I am an Ops Manger for a small entry level business jet company. We do not use training bonds. We try to pay industry standard or slightly higher. I know pilots are going to leave for better pay, better aircraft and better working conditions and not neccesarily in that order. My goal is to keep a pilot 2 years and I ask all of the guys to honor that. I usually bring all pilots in based on very close friends personal references. I guess you could say all hiring has been done through networking. So guys learn to network! When a guy leaves, my hopes are that they are going to a great company because I believe we are a good company. I do hate to see a guy go sideways to another grass is greener company because it is usually no greener. I will gladly help anyone get a great job like Cathay or Air Canada.

It seems most business jet operators do not provide very good schedules if any at all and that seems to be the case for most companies that do charters unless they are unionized ie Bearskin. Most companies are under staffed (in pilots minds) mostly due to movement in the industry and aircraft utilization. It is hard to justify a third pilot on a business jet that only flies 150 hrs a year. Unfortunately those 150 hrs are typically weekends and holidays. This tends not to fit into most guys personal and family schedules. So it is a viscious circle but very very common at almost every company. There are few exceptions. Possibly a little better education and up frontness at the interview level might help the problems associated with charter and private aircraft operations. The old adage of " you are off today unless a trip comes up" is frusterating for most people. If every pilot were honorable and stood by their word I don't think there would ever be a training bond. Likewise operators need to be open and honest about what they do and how they treat people. Don't take a job that you don't think you will like.