Sunwing expands like a mofo!

[unregistered]

Surely this can't be good for Sunwing?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 735790.ece

[Four1oh]

ouch!

[mighty mouse]

Sunwing canceled all their flights to Cuba (for understandable reasons) but are they returning the money to the passengers who bought vacations their?

[Rotten Apple #1]

Yikes.

Here's a PPrune link to the demise:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3428 ... -good.html

Curiously enough a friend of mine at Sunwing told me a couple of weeks ago on the phone that the key to success in their industry segment and business model was diversification, after mentioning that crews were being sent to Germany next year to work for another leisure company. The comment makes more sense now.

[avi8tr]

just found this online......

Attention Business/Travel Editors:

Sunwing announces enhanced agreements with aviation suppliers
TORONTO, Sept. 12 /CNW/ - Sunwing Airlines announced today expanded lease
agreements with aircraft suppliers and lessors for its growing fleet
operations for this upcoming winter season.
Mark Williams, president of Sunwing Airlines, said "We have been in
discussion with major aircraft leasing companies and other airlines in Europe,
regarding the deployment of aircraft for our peak winter season programme.
Sunwing already has agreements in place with three other European airlines for
seasonal movement of aircraft and crews, replacing previous agreements with XL
Airways."
Stephen Hunter COO of Sunwing Travel Group commented "We are very pleased
to expand our existing commercial relationships and agreements with quality
European airlines and world-renowned leasing companies. This allows us to move
forward meeting all of our flying commitments as planned."
"Our customers and travel agent partners have become accustomed to
Sunwing delivering a better product at a lower price," added Williams. "That
is what has fuelled our growth and profits. We are looking forward to serving
more customers from more locations with our expanded fleet of modern
aircraft."
Sunwing Airlines will expand to a fleet of 15 Next-Generation aircraft
during winter 2008/09, and operate from 29 cities in Canada to 35 destinations
in the U.S., Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America. The carrier operates
an all B737-800 fleet, due to the aircraft's fuel efficiency - as much as 4
per cent better than aircraft of a similar size - and popularity with
passengers.
This winter it is introducing a new category of service, "Elite Plus"
whereby passengers enjoy advance seat selection, extra legroom seating,
priority boarding, 30 kg baggage allowance and priority check-in in Canada,
all for as little as $35 per flight.

[unregistered]

These are interesting times.

[Boeing]

Sunwing books other planes following bankruptcy of XL Leisure
By: Ross Marowits, THE CANADIAN PRESS

MONTREAL - Canadian vacation company Sunwing has averted a crisis by securing alternative airliners for the winter season following the bankruptcy of XL Leisure Group.

"It was a pain in the neck. Our airline guys were working overnight and making sure everything was coming together," Sunwing vice-president Lawrence Elliott said in an interview Monday.

On Friday, Britain's XL Leisure Group PLC went into liquidation, leaving 50,000 passengers stranded. Its collapse came two weeks after Ottawa-based budget carrier Zoom suddenly ceased operations.

XL Leisure had been slated to provide six of the projected 15 aircraft to be flown by Sunwing this winter.

It has turned to three other companies for additional planes, including two that it already uses - Eurocypria and Transavia. A third unnamed German company has been added.

Sunwing dusted off its contingency plan when it learned that XL was unable to secure refinancing despite months of effort.

"We had understandings and agreement to get our planes elsewhere from other sources in the event that something happened to XL, all the time rooting that they would get their financing in order and everything would be fine," Elliott said.

The new planes are the same Boeing 737-800s that Sunwing has in its fleet.

XL's demise forced the early return to Canada of pilots and crew Sunwing had in Europe operating flights on XL's behalf during the summer.

Although the liquidation of the leasing company has put Sunwing under pressure, the impact is nowhere near as trying as when Jetsgo went under in 2005, just hours before the March break.

"Jetsgo was far more severe than this. All our flying was with Jetsgo," Elliott said.

This time, Sunwing had time to prepare without dealing with stranded passengers. The tough operating environment has also created a surplus of planes, including those that can be transferred from the end of the European summer season to the peak North American winter season.

Toronto-based Sunwing, which has 800 employees, is on a hiring spree as it prepares to deliver 700,000 seats this winter for Canadian snowbirds.

It serves 33 destinations from 29 Canadian gateways, including communities such as Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., and Val D'Or, Que., that are typically ignored.

The company claims to be the largest Canadian tour operator to Cuba and the second-largest leisure group behind Transat (TSX:TRZ.B).

Sunwing insists that it's in strong financial health despite the challenges of operating in a high-fuel-cost environment. Its fleet of Boeing 737-800s is young and relatively fuel-efficient.

[Four1oh]

Hopefully it'll all work out for them. I was wondering when they'd finally say something!

[Boeing]

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/arch ... 4.html[url][/url]

Sunwing announces 300 employee hire
TORONTO, Sept. 24 /CNW/ - The Sunwing Travel Group continues to grow, and
it is pleased to announce it is in the process of recruiting over three
hundred additional staff, taking its payroll for the first time to over one
thousand employees.
The reservations departments in Toronto and Montreal have recruited and
are training over 100 new staff. Toronto reservations and operations
departments recently added 15,000 square feet of office space, while Montreal
has expanded by 5,000 square feet to handle the expanded reservation team.
At Sunwing Airlines, 200 new cabin crew are being trained and 30
experienced pilots have been added to operate the expanded fleet of Boeing
737-800 aircraft, which will number 15 this winter.
According to Stephen Hunter, CEO of the Sunwing Travel Group, "The
increased demand we are enjoying is proof that our standards of service are
truly what the Canadian traveler wants. It's clear that we are delivering the
right product at the right price."
This winter, Sunwing will operate from 29 Canadian gateways to 35
destinations in the USA, Caribbean, Mexico and Central America. For more
information, visit http://www.sunwing.ca.

[jjj]

.....and the similarity to JetsGo gets closer.

[Steve Baker]

How so? 100 new people in reservations would seem indicative of a company that has more buisness coming in. 200 Flight attendants are only a small part of the number laid off seasonally when 4 planes deploy to Europe. As the planes come back, we need FAs for them. The 30 pilots are the last of this seasons hiring. The fleet size is set by what the vacations department has sold and tells the airline they need.

Every time someone such as jjj posts some comparison to JetsGo, it has a negative impact on Sunwing's public perception. That would be fine if true but, is harmful when it's some wild fabrication by someone with some sort of weird grudge. If you have something constructive to add, perhaps something more than a thow away one liner would be best.

[A300]

Ok, Ill add to that...

Revenues of about 1.7 billion per year at 9 aircraft would put them on par with what should be expected to turn about a 2% margin, double that and you now need 3.5 billion to hold said margin. Transat at 3.2 billion holds a fleet of 18 and turns 5%, they hold 36% market share, Sunwing 17%, Canjet about 5% (most of which is from Trnst) Sky about 10%. What the previous poster was commenting on was this dreamworld idea that somehow Sunwing will rip a huge chunk of the leisure travel market that does not exist. You see, the market share that the big dominant player (Transat) holds is combined with transatlantic trips, not just southern...Sunwings target equals to about a maximum growth potential of about 1 billion or less (based on a statistical analysis of growth predictions). What Sunwing is doing is speculating on its own ability to sustain such an agressive move, its very risky...good luck to all at Sunwing, I hope it work but nevertheless, you have to have big b$ll$ to speculate on that..the cost of this is more than what the company can afford to gamble, they will for sure incur millions in debt even if they get every percentage of market share they are hoping to get...

[whipline]

Here is the problem with your argument. First off your numbers are ficticious. Using your numbers, did you then go on and use Transat's costs to further illustrate your point based on Sunwing's 9 aircraft year round? Were you then trying to conclude Sunwing is not doing well based on your phantom numbers and assumptions???

Here's a thought, and I'm only spit-balling here. Maybe, just maybe Sunwing hired a tonne more reservation agents and moved to a larger office because of demand? Maybe, just maybe Sunwing hired more airline staff because the TOUR COMPANY needs the extra lift?

I find it ironic when people try to compare Sunwing with Jetsgo. Sunwing is not an airline its a TOUR COMPANY. Sunwing airlines was started directly because of Jetsgo and their lack of service and broken aircraft. The airline is there to fly the TOUR COMPANIES PASSENGERS. If the TOUR COMPANY needs more lift then the airline expands. If the TOUR COMPANY needs less lift then the airline downsizes. Sunwing (tour company) could have filled 20 airplanes their first year. The only think stopping them is Sunwing Airlines; they can't grow fast enough.

Sunwing has a sizeble operating advantage over their competition, and apparently the competition is not happy about it.

[Rubberbiscuit]

jjj & A300:

Seem to me Sunwing is pushing some sensitive buttons for whatever reason. Sunwing cutting into your profitsharing cheque or taking business that would otherwise be yours? Or simply unhappy about another player on the field? To compare Sunwing to Jetsgo is unwarranted unless you worked at both. If someone can't tell the difference between a charter/vacation company and a low cost airline.... maybe one should keep opinions to themselves. Yes we are expanding, yes we are operating 15 airplanes this winter compared to 9 last year. However this not something that was cooked up overnight. It is based on business over the last 25 years.... thats right! Sunwing Vacations have been around more than 25 years! Every year since obtaining an OC Sunwing has outsourced less and less flying to other companies such as Zoom and KFC etc. Sunwing only has 3 airplanes of their own, 4 come February... the rest are leases for the winter months. Every spring alot of staff are laid off for the summer, it is the name of the game. I am not suggesting Sunwing is bullet proof or has the perfect business model going. I am merely pointing out that any outlash at Sunwing is pure speculation and comparing it to Shitsgo is an insult to all employees and customers. There is no comparison, coming from someone that worked there. Sunwing is a professional safety driven company that put a lot of weight on customer service.

I really enjoy accessing this forum. However, once in a while this mud slinging comes along... people attempting to spread dirt and unfounded rumors of other companies as if their demise can't come soon enough... people that seem to take pleasure in spreading slander and seeing others livelyhood at stake. Hey! We are all in the same game, trying to get ahead, trying to make a living... feed the family and have fun doing it. Don't understand, I don't think I will ever understand that type of thinking or mentality.

RB

[B757FO]

jjj & A300:

Seem to me Sunwing is pushing some sensitive buttons for whatever reason. Sunwing cutting into your profitsharing cheque or taking business that would otherwise be yours? Or simply unhappy about another player on the field? To compare Sunwing to Jetsgo is unwarranted unless you worked at both. If someone can't tell the difference between a charter/vacation company and a low cost airline.... maybe one should keep opinions to themselves. Yes we are expanding, yes we are operating 15 airplanes this winter compared to 9 last year. However this not something that was cooked up overnight. It is based on business over the last 25 years.... thats right! Sunwing Vacations have been around more than 25 years! Every year since obtaining an OC Sunwing has outsourced less and less flying to other companies such as Zoom and KFC etc. Sunwing only has 3 airplanes of their own, 4 come February... the rest are leases for the winter months. Every spring alot of staff are laid off for the summer, it is the name of the game. I am not suggesting Sunwing is bullet proof or has the perfect business model going. I am merely pointing out that any outlash at Sunwing is pure speculation and comparing it to Shitsgo is an insult to all employees and customers. There is no comparison, coming from someone that worked there. Sunwing is a professional safety driven company that put a lot of weight on customer service.

I really enjoy accessing this forum. However, once in a while this mud slinging comes along... people attempting to spread dirt and unfounded rumors of other companies as if their demise can't come soon enough... people that seem to take pleasure in spreading slander and seeing others livelyhood at stake. Hey! We are all in the same game, trying to get ahead, trying to make a living... feed the family and have fun doing it. Don't understand, I don't think I will ever understand that type of thinking or mentality.

RB

Rubberbiscut,

I respect you for speaking you mind. I work next door and I don't see the comparison between your airline and jetsgo either but I think people are comparing the rapid expansion in a weakening economy as a bad thing. I am not one to judge. So hence the comparissons. Some people get kicks off others demise making their own jobs seem more stable hence the mud slinging but what can you do its a forum after all. Glad to here you like your job. We all like our own jobs hopefully but I take offence that you omitted Skyservice from your list of other ailines who used to provide lift for sunwing! Anyways glad you are happy. If anything it keeps the discussions alive here.

B757FO

[jjj]

Canadian Aviation has a long history of monumental @#$!-ups.

C3 comes to mind and so does JetsGo. Both companies touted themselves as big players as they expanded and used money from next months flights to pay yesterdays bills.

It has been suggested in aviation circles outside of this forum that Sunwing is following suit.

I have no agenda against Sunwing or any fair competition. In fact I welcome succesful business models to come a get a fair piece of market share so that we can turn around Canadian Aviation from the current joke that it is.

I'm sick of shitty airlines turning our worlds upside down. When airlines go under, our friends lose there jobs, creditors are left holding the bills, and the whole debt gets passed on to you and me and regular-joe-flying-public.

All of these POS airlines were supposedly making money until they suddenly closed their doors: C3, HMY, JetsGo to name a few - and the last people to find out were the employees.

I look forward to fair competition. I expect that the next player will be NewAir and they will give all present charter companies a run for their money.

I'm sick and tired of shitty airlines fucking everything thing up for the rest of us.

I suspect that one day Sunwing will join the ranks of monumental @#$!-ups and some friends of mine will lose their jobs again.

I hope that I am wrong. Time will tell and I would truthfully be happy to eat my words. Hell, I would love to be wrong on this one. Seeya in six months.

[Four1oh]

nice job of summing it up jjj.
+1

[rudder]

Too many seats chasing too few customers. Haven't we all seen this movie before?

[Troubleshot]

You WJ folk are so good you can't even stand it.....

[whipline]

The only "aviation circle" spreading the rumors are yourselves. Sunwing is not paying its bills with money from next months bookings. In actual fact the majority of bills are paid in advance. These rumors will cease when you stop starting and spreading them.

[Rubberbiscuit]

JJJ wrote:

I'm sick of shitty airlines turning our worlds upside down. When airlines go under, our friends lose there jobs, creditors are left holding the bills, and the whole debt gets passed on to you and me and regular-joe-flying-public.

Could you define "shitty airlines" please? And if so what are you basing that on? And what is that categorization based on? It is certainly not working conditions or customer service. Is it the fact that we are expanding? Did it occur to you that expansion might be a reaction to success and market demands rather than a desperate attempt to gain marketshare as was the case with Jetsgo? I must admit I take offence if you are putting Sunwing in that category. Again.... and I know it besides the point, Sunwing is not an airline in the traditional sense. Sunwing does not make money with airplanes or by filling seats. Sunwing sells vacations. The airplanes just happens to be the mode of transportation and the B738 the type of airplane the company decided was right for getting the holiday travellers to their holiday destinations.

I have never said and will never suggest that anyone involved in aviation is immune to failure or dissapointments... I have had my fair share. 3 out of my last 5 employers are history. Hell! I could be unemployed tomorrow for all I know.

Again not sure Sunwing was inculded in the above quote of shitty airlnes turning the world upside down.... but must ask how does Sunwing turn anyones world upside down? We only do a very small amount of domestic sched with our 3 aiplanes and doubt we are putting any "airlines" out of business. I don't want to take a stab at anyone here but there is no shortage people suggesting LCC's are the cancer of modern day aviation with their entrance into the aviation playing field in the previous decade with low fares grossly undercutting everyone else and trimming inflight service down to a mere shadow of it old self, forcing everone else to follow suit. What is the definition of a great airline I'd like to know?

As far as the expansion in question a huge portion of new hires will undoubtedly be seasonal workers. Sunwing would not got to 15 airplanes unless the pre-vaction season sales indicated the nessecity for it, or a plan for the off seson was not in place.

Just my 2 cents.

[wrc]

Big deal. XL wasn't an airline either. In fact, they were just a bigger version of Sunwing and now they're gone too. You fly airplanes you're subject to certain costs. You sell packages, that's great but you're still subject CASM & RASM realities.

[wrc]

Oh yea, one reason Sunwing gets compared to Jetsgo is that the core group of pilots/management guys that followed Leblanc from failure to failure (Intair, Royal, C3 & Jetsgo) are there. A sort of negative Midas touch. If 3 of your last 5 employers went bust maybe you're one of em' That said, I hope they can hang on. There is a place for the logical well run charter carrier.

[daveg]

Also, judging by the horror stories I hear about Sunwings crew sched (from their own captains no less) it doesn't sound very well run. It's like a day to day operation, tons of crews sitting around not knowing whats coming next and being pushed on duty hours. Crew sched is so bad they can't keep people in the deptartment. That's a fact. You can't deny that.

I for one don't wish any ill will on Sunwing either, it seems they are just moving ahead without solving some of their major problems and don't seem to care either. Maybe growing pains but it's been a long time now.

[Rubberbiscuit]

wrc:

I was not suggesting that we are immune because we are not a straiight airline type operation. I was just saying there is no comparison to Jetsgo... The original discussion of this thread. As far as people at Sunwing that worked at at Jetsgo, C3 Or Royal goes, yes there is a few but luckily there is no Leblanc involved here and the ones that are at Sunwing are mostly training pilots etc that has zero to do with business decissions.

On the upside oil is back to $100 a barrel or so again so that is good news for all.