Holding Bay on Dead End Runway

[NJ]

Like the subject says, does anyone know of any currently used ones? Specifically one used by ATS that allows an aircraft to hold on the side of the runway while another aircraft uses the same runway for landing. A place like Penticton has full taxiways at the end, but I'm thinking just a very large turnaround bay that is permitted to hold aircraft.

[Stinky]

I've only seen them at uncontrolled airports.

[GilletteNorth]

I've had to remind foreign pilots many times that the large areas beside the threshold are for large aircraft turn-around use only. Most Canadian pilots already know this. American pilots don't seem to know it when they come up to visit so I'd assume the areas in the USA are also used for holding bays. Can any American pilots confirm this?

[scrambled_legs]

There's one in Regina that's been decommissioned. Apparently it worked like a charm but the airport authority didn't feel the need to keep it.

[Hedley]

Most Canadian pilots already know this

actually, if you know the guy landing, and if you can say
with a straight face that you were "in formation", you
can certainly hold in the turnaround bay while he lands.

[seniorpumpkin]

I thought there was one in Nelson BC. I know I've used it for run-ups, but I don't know if it would technically be considered a holding bay.

[philknight29]

I've seen them in use in the UK London City has one, but that place is a bit of an odd place anyway. It's like a High speed turn off leads around and back onto the runway.

[jet a1]

33 in yzf has one. last week i saw canadian north and aircanada taxi down to the end together and one waited on the turn around area while the other took off. not the example you asked about but it's along the same lines.
later,
jet.

[oldtimer]

Most "turn-around bays" cannot be used to clear the runway while someone lands because you will not be the required 200 ft clear of the runway. The one in Regina was the end of runway 12 years ago but runway 13 has been lengthened and now the new turn around bay is actually a taxiway.

[BoostedNihilist]

I thought there was one in Nelson BC. I know I've used it for run-ups, but I don't know if it would technically be considered a holding bay.

Yeah, it's used for runups, never seen an aircraft wait there while another lands though..

did see transport use it to park their shiny helicopter... Odd since there is usually a ton of space to park elsewhere...

[scrambled_legs]

Regina has one at the threshold of 08 and it's still there, just not usable. It was large enough to hold an airliner short of the runway while another one departed or landed. Apparently you could run a number of smaller aircraft down there at the same time, whenever you had a hole on approach, then have them depart from there one at a time when arrival spacing allowed. It was a lot more efficient than backtracking them individually from the closest taxiway, half way down the runway. I imagine that they'd just make a taxiway to the threshold, if traffic required it now as there was probably the same amount of pavement in that bay as there would be on a taxiway.

Why did you want to know NJ?

[NJ]

Well that turnaround bay in YZF mentioned earlier is part of a larger paved section that measures 300*800 just east of the threshold 33. We use it all the time for successive departures off 33, but since it's a 5700 foot backtrack you have to be sure that you can get planes back there and off before the next arrival. An alternate of a holding area is a lot safer and more efficient than a missed approach if the timing is messed up.

So my thinking was a bit of painting to enlarge the turnaround bay and by adding hold lines it becomes a holding bay. We could do this in VMC (it's in an ILS critical area), but we're severe clear up here 9 months of the year. GNWT has been dragging it's heels on a taxiway for years, so there's no point in holding out for that.

[scrambled_legs]

It's not as simple as a couple of gallons of paint and brush. You have to have obstruction clearance off all the sides surveyed, pavement loading rating, proper markings/lighting, glide path/ ILS interference probably isn't relevant to IFR conditions either but probably anytime the ILS is in use. Nothing's as simple as it seems.

[Treetops]

Could a landing aircraft not wave the 200ft rule for another aircraft. I can't count how many times I have been told there are mowers/construction or other stuff within the 200ft and then asked by tower/fss is this is alright or do I want them moved. And I have never heard any one asking for it to be moved.

[KT111]

Check the reference in the AIM for the definition of a "turn around bay". It specifically states that it may not be big enough to allow the holding of an aircraft off the runway while another one lands.

The military is allowed to use a turn-around bay as a holding bay for some of their smaller aircraft like a jet but it is frowned upon for general aviation aircraft to do even when two pilots are aware of the others' intentions and have accepted it.

[iflyforpie]

The taxiways at the north end of Penticton (C/D) off 16 would be the minimum required to legally land an aircraft with one holding off the runway and have no special conditions.

[KT111]

AIM Section AGA
3.4 Turnaround Bay

Some runways have thresholds not served directly by taxiways. In such cases, there may be a widened area which can be used to facilitate turnaround. Pilots are cautioned that these bays do not give sufficient clearance from the runway edge to allow their use for holding while other aircraft use the runway.

The rest of the AIM is very unspecific about multiple aircraft using the runway for simultaneous landings and departures. Trust me I've looked numerous times.

We have a good controller's perspective on the use of a turnaround bay for holding an aircraft while an aircraft lands.

I have spoken with pilots from the same company who have done such a thing and they were both in agreement that if they wanted to do it and felt safe doing it then they should be able to. However I probably wouldn't make it common occurence especially if it is with pilots I didn't know or didn't fly with very often.

[NJ]

The only aircraft that fly here on a regular basis as formation aircraft are CL-215's on fire duty. When they land in formation the lead lands and continues in a forward taxi to the end of the runway until the following aircraft is under control, then they both turn around at once and taxi back to the nearest exit (with permission from ATC to backtrack of course).

I'm not going to approve a backtrack at a time that will allow one aircraft to be facing the opposite way of a landing aircraft. It's just not safe. We have provisions in CARs that allows for and aircraft to land when there's a previous aircraft that has landed and there's enough room for the following aircraft to complete its landing roll without jeopardizing safety.