One controllers likes and dislikes. Ask about your plane.

[scrambled_legs]

Rockie, I'm pointing out a piece of shit plane that never should have been created. I'm not bitching to you, you didn't make it you're just stuck flying it. I'm not really bitching at all, just laughing at it and pointing it out. I won't fly on a CRJ because I don't want to get stuck somewhere due maintenance, barely make it off the runway, or have my luggage left behind. It has nothing to do with me being a controller or you being a pilot, it's just a piece of shit plane... can we not point that out as just another guy in the aviation industry? Is it that you're getting paid to drive a Lada and you feel like everyone is laughing at you?

The original post wasn't bitching about anything, just a lighthearted comment about planes that don't keep up. I thought the thread would be a playful joke about planes that are out of the ordinary but then you had to get in there and take it as a slant against pilots and go on about how controllers are a bunch of babies complaining about how difficult their job is.

Just remember this thread the next time your vectored to a 20 mile final or sitting at the hold line for 8 minutes with no planes in sight and please don't bitch to me about it because like you said, there's no point in bitching about what I can't change either.

[Cat Driver]

AAhhh, if only we could go back to the days of the Radio Range and DC3's when the controllers and the pilots bought each other beers and B.S.ed about their love life and such mundane stuff.. ( well actually some of it had nothing to do with actual love. )

Sadly in today's hectic world we have become like rats in a maze and lost sight of the simple things in life.

[scrambled_legs]

Amen.

Every pilot that I know loves to go out and have beers and bullshit.

The ones on here on the other hand...

[Cat Driver]

Scrambled, I'm truly happy that most of my career was spent in a more simple time with far less B.S. to put up with in aviation.

What happened to the days when we could walk into a weather office and talk to briefers who not only knew the weather in their region but would talk to you and give their own opinion of what they thought we would be facing that day...and as to controllers hell we knew most of them by name and it was almost unheard of to have bickering over how we each did our job.

Now everything is rules and regulations dummed down to protect everyone......no fu.kin wonder people get frustrated.

[Old Dog Flying]

Cat Driver and ScrambledLegs: I like a few brews as well and I too would like to see the return of the "friendly Skies" where we could share the BS and brew. As was noted about...you can't change anything about the performance of the tin in the skies so live with it and get on with the job.

After spending 49 years in the system, I can say I've never complained about the performance of any aircraft and have mixed them up pretty good. I think that the big problem here is that there are too many guys in the system...both controllers and pilots...who don't like their particular jobs.

Hey ., you flying the Husky?????

[scrambled_legs]

It doesn't help that pilots on airliners are being paid less than Tim Horton's employees in Fort Mac. The glory days are definitely over and that's why I'm sitting on this side of the glass. Sure do miss flying some days though.

Old dog, I don't complain about the CRJs, when I'm working them, only when I or someone I know, has to fly in one of them. If you like your clapped out old Ho, that's great, but when I have to ride it, that's a different story.

[Cat Driver]

Hey ., you flying the Husky?????

Yup, dropped Bob off at Delta Airpark after our three week trip down to Oshkosh and Toronto and I'm keeping it in the hangar here in Nanaimo....when I get back from NFLD on October 09 I am going to start putting the Whipline amphibs together and Dale will come over and we will put the Husky on them....you will have to go for a ride in it.....I won't be bringing it into Delta because the runway is to rough for the amphibs.

By the way the thing is a marvelous flying machine.

[sky's the limit]

Hey .,

If you fly that thing over to Powell River, lunch is on me.....

stl

[lilfssister]

I wonder why it's the airlines and NavCanada always being the ones pushed for cost savings? How about the fuel companies stop charging so freakin much for gas??? Or better yet, take gas and oil companies off the stock market. It's really the stock market speculators causing the price jumps.

Side note: Lilfssister, new avatar? Where'd kitty go?

Kitty will be back...was just feeling a bit (black) sheepish

[lilfssister]

I wonder why it's the airlines and NavCanada always being the ones pushed for cost savings? How about the fuel companies stop charging so freakin much for gas??? Or better yet, take gas and oil companies off the stock market. It's really the stock market speculators causing the price jumps.

And...if you look at all the investment NC has made in technology the last 12 years...the costs to many users have been reduced through RVSM, northern radar sites, and lately: ADS-B, etc.

[Sulako]

I fly a slow-ass jet, and I'm not sorry at all.

It's a great job, and to be honest I couldn't care less what a controller's opinion is regarding my, or any other aircraft. Why should I?

From what I have gathered, controllers are paid to use their brains to figure out how to mix in different types of traffic, and spend considerable time in training learning how to do exactly that. If that is too difficult, then they should earn a living through beekeeping or perhaps opening a store on Ebay or something.

Even the slow planes have to pay NavCan fees, so I find it somewhat amusing to hear controllers complain about the same aircraft that contribute directly to their paycheques.

[scrambled_legs]

Wow... I think no_reply was wise to not try and explain himself. You guys are worse than a bunch of prego ladies when the grocery store runs out of ice cream.

A guy writes about what he likes or dislikes about certain planes. It then devolves into a bunch of pilots slinging mud at controllers saying we're lazy and they are our pay cheque so bow down and worship. I don't know why I keep trying to explain it. Until you get your ice cream, you're not going to bother reading what has been written and continue to bitch about everything.

I'm done with this thread. If a moderator doesn't even take the time to read what was written then I think there's no stopping this. I guess everyone just has a bunch of bent up energy and needs to release it on the first person to not say something.

Next time, do me a favor and quote where any of us said that slow jets shouldn't fly with fast jets because it makes us think. Use the quote button, and rather then put words into our mouths, read wtf was written. If you quote it, then someone with better reading comprehension can explain what is being said rather then have to try and unwrinkle your panties that are obviously tied in a very tight knot.

[Sulako]

My panties are all in the laundry, so today I'm going commando. You're welcome for the visual

If a moderator doesn't even take the time to read what was written...Next time, do me a favor and quote where any of us said that slow jets shouldn't fly with fast jets because it makes us think.

If you want to play with the big boys you've got to keep up (closely)..that's all. Taking half a province to level..well that's just plain unacceptable...It's not that the good folks at ATC can't cope - its' that they shouldn't have to

Is that a good enough quote for you?

See, I do read every post in a thread before I reply to it. I guess you missed that one.

I agree that I came across as hostile in my previous post. I should have worked harder to come across as more indifferent.

A controller doesn't like a certain plane?

"Umm, ok" is my reply. That's also the same reply I'd use if someone said "The Simpsons is on tv later on" or "That tree over there is really far away". Fortunately for me and the rest of us, a controller's opinion on a particular aircraft has zero bearing in our lives, just like the fact that that tree over there is really far away. We operate the aircraft to the best of our abilities, and controllers direct the aircraft to the best of theirs.

[scrambled_legs]

Well if it's Family Guy you're hammering then...

Seriously though, don't some of the pilots wonder how their aircraft compares to the rest? Did you know that your aircraft has exceptionally poor climb performance? I might be wrong but I think that was what the original poster was getting at. In my mind he certainly wasn't complaining about having to work a mix of traffic.

[Rockie]

Just to start things off! Please no one take any offense

The good:
B727 (M.84+ yes thanks)
RJ900's (What the... oh thats why, he's not a 100 series. Number 1 for sequencing!)
WestJet 737's (Expedite the climb... no problem)
Speedbird (Most professional pilots out there)

The bad:
RJ's 100/200 (Umm.. who else needs a whole province to reach their cruise altitude)
A321's (Bigger Airbus, same engine = almost RJ like performance)
The KingAir at FL350 (Can you say roadblock)
C750 ('Say Mach'.... 'Mach .91' -So thats why their is a 80 knot overtake !!!!)

Looks like complaining, sounds like complaining, smells like complaining. Hmmm...I'll go with complaining. Above that his first sentence reveals it as a deliberate kick at the bee hive to see what swarms out. Not surprisingly pilots aren't very sympathetic with his opinions.

But thank you, I never before in over 30 years of flying thought about my aircraft's climb rate or performance and how it would impact on where the controller sequences me, or how I might fit in with the flow. I'm sure your idea here is new to every other pilot as well. How could we not have thought of this kind of thing before?

[FICU]

Well if it's Family Guy you're hammering then...

Seriously though, don't some of the pilots wonder how their aircraft compares to the rest? Did you know that your aircraft has exceptionally poor climb performance?

If we are flying machines in the FL's then we have been around for a few years and I think we all have a good idea about the performance of the aircraft we fly and how they compare to others.

When I depart YOW on a hot day and require runway 14/32 for "operational considerations" using a bleeds-off, improved climb take off and then take 200 odd miles to reach FL310... longer if climbing in icing conditions. I know that my climb performance, with -9 engines, sucks compared to pretty much any other jet out there, even a Cessna Slowtation . If I have a machine with -17 engines then there is no performance issue.

The point is... we all know the capabilities of the machines we fly and like Sulako mentioned... we don't care how it impacts your job because sometimes, we can't do a damn thing about it.

[scrambled_legs]

Sounds like he's comparing aircraft and which ones perform well among the other planes and which ones perform poorly. period. So when someone says please don't take offense, they really mean please take offense? Again, I don't know why I bother responding. You obviously wanna bitch about something and will read inbetween the lines and draw your own conclusions regardless of what is written. I'm not your wife, there's no hidden message here and if those pants make your ass look fat, I'll tell you. As a controller, every one of us enjoys working certain aircraft more than others. Why we can't talk about that in public without people having hissy fits, is beyond me.

Aside from the fact that the only picture that most pilots have is what they can see out their windscreen, I wasn't aware that you knew the performance characteristics of 100's of aircraft that we deal with everyday. Yes I'm sure you know your airplane but I highly doubt most pilots know exactly how their plane stacks up to the competition, unless they've taken the ground school on their competition as well. Do you know the beacon crossing speed of a CRJ9 vs. a CRJ1 vs. a 737? How about the climb rate/speed on departure between a DH8 and a B190? Obviously you all know the capabilities of the machines you fly but do you know how they compare? I know a lot of pilots that fly in the flight levels that don't have a clue and a Seneca grad with 200hrs doesn't know anything about airplane performance aside from a CRJ.

The point is... we all know the capabilities of the machines we fly and like Sulako mentioned... we don't care how it impacts your job because sometimes, we can't do a damn thing about it.

And this just makes me want to pay so much attention to the pilots comments in this thread regarding how I can make your job easier.

[FICU]

And this just makes me want to pay so much attention to the pilots comments in this thread regarding how I can make your job easier.

Sorry if it upsets you but if I have to climb with engine anti-icing on and it gives me a sub 1000 ft/min climb there is nothing I can do about it so if it impacts your job then you have to deal with it... it's what you're paid to do and in that case there is nothing you can do to make my job easier anyway.

We all do our best to help ATC if we can because we are professionals. I also think there is a misconception by some controllers here that by delaying us, for whatever reason, makes you think we are getting upset and pissed off. We deal with it because it's part of the job. Getting stressed and wasting energy by getting pissed off over something not in our control doesn't belong on the flight deck in the first place.

[scrambled_legs]

Getting stressed and wasting energy by getting pissed off over something not in our control doesn't belong on the flight deck in the first place.

Agreed, but you may want to pass that philosophy on to some of your colleagues because not everyone shares the same viewpoint. Just look at a few of the many threads on here with pilots complaining about delays.

I think the comment that you don't care how it impacts our job, just highlights that this is often a one way street in the pilots eyes. If I told you that I don't care how it impacts your job, I'd have a million pilots yelling at me. Having to fly an aircraft a certain way is one thing, but having no appreciation for the workload that it causes, is ignorance. So how's the bliss?

[FICU]

I think the comment that you don't care how it impacts our job, just highlights that this is often a one way street in the pilots eyes. If I told you that I don't care how it impacts your job, I'd have a million pilots yelling at me. Having to fly an aircraft a certain way is one thing, but having no appreciation for the workload that it causes, is ignorance. So how's the bliss?

Sorry, that comment came off a little cold... if we didn't care about the workload of your job then we wouldn't try to help as much as we do but my initial point was don't think we don't know about the performance limitations of the machines we fly compared to ones around us. If we can't do anything to help make your job easier in the first place then we don't concern ourselves with what you have to do. When we can help, we do our best.

[complexintentions]

hey scrambled_legs,

It isn't pilots dumping on controllers...it's pilots and experienced controllers dumping on what I would guess are inexperienced controllers. Please don't take offense that you come across as really young and slightly ignorant about airplanes. Which I find fascinating because your job actually has something to do with airplanes.

[scrambled_legs]

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you...

[FamilyGuy]

Am I a target of angst?

Funny, if everyone is so at ease with aircraft performance and controller abilities, WHY is this thread so advesarial?

Hm - Smells like dogshit, looks like dogshit...good thing we no step in it.

[marktheone]

NavCan is a pain in the arse. It's strange how the Americans can do things with controlling that NavCan can't. They are SOOO much better it's amazing.
The new arrivals into YVR are there only to make NavCan's job easier. There is no other possible reason.

I assume that they must have some rules (union maybe?) that are different than that of the US. There are usually less A/C in Canada than in the US so why always the NavCan difficulties.

I'm with Sulako. NaVCan gets their $36 regardless so just work the aircraft. No need for opinions on different A/C types.

[scrambled_legs]

Calling a pilot during a take-off or landing roll won't get the required action done any quicker because the plane only has one option (for the most part) on how to fly that particular phase of flight. If you have to wait to a safe speed to exit the runway - not to mention the CARs say you don't need a clearence to exit - how is telling the pilot shortly after touchdown going to get it done any quicker?

Actually it gets things done a lot quicker. Although we try and plan it out and issue it while you're still on approach, as you touch down sometimes things change or you don't remember what we said on approach. If we can give it to you as soon as you have all your wheels on the ground and look like a normal under control landing, then it'll help you to determine what to do in preparing for the exit. If we don't tell you anything, every pilot will do something different. When you're dealing with smaller planes, some will hammer on the brakes and take the first possible exit, others will let it slowly roll out without touching the brakes. With the bigger jets, its a bit more predictable but even then, if we want you to exit at the end, we don't want you to throw on as much reverse as you normally would and keep the speed up till the end. On the big runways you often have 5 or more suitable exit points and we then have a 1 in 5 chance that you'll take the best one. If we want you to exit on a runway, you need a clearance. The hardest position in a tower at the busiest airports in Canada, is generally ground. Ensuring the planes take the best exit rather than rolling by, can expedite the overall traffic flow much more than an immediate take-off. Thinking that you can exit wherever and it won't affect traffic flow is just another insight into how little you understand about ATC and traffic flow.

It's interesting how Canadians love to bag on their ATC. Calgary happens to be one of the busiest single runway operations in North America and even the world with a Converging Runway Display Apparatus designed by Nav Can to allow for as many runway movements in an hour as is possible. Toronto far surpasses many similar layouts in the US for traffic flow, while still dealing with Canadian weather and congested airspace, yet on AvCanada we're a third world system. Our sep standards and rules are a lot more restrictive at times than the US and that can be an issue but in general, our ANS is as good as any. The US is discussing some really scary sep standards lately including VFR departures with no halo of safety. Fortunately in Canada, the airline unions won't accept things like this and in the long run, it'll probably save lives. Hearing a pilots perspective on who the best controllers are, is often hilarious. Take Oshkosh for example and you'll have many pilots talk about how amazing the controllers are. I figure they must be God's to be able to run that many movements. Than you read up on it and you find out that they basically have no rules and are just there for the show shouting out instructions whenever they're able.

Since many of the planes were not even equipped with radios, the controllers were forced to rely on red smoke signals. Even those flyers with radios were not much better off: a pilot once asked in what order he should land and was told by an exasperated controller, "There are 127 airplanes to follow. Find the last one and follow him." Another controller simply despaired and suggested that everyone clear the area and come back later.

Inevitably, there have been accidents in the event's 25-year history. Six people have been killed, including one last week —Burton Bodven, 33, of Franksville, Wis., who died after another plane shirred off the tail of his craft in a mid-air collision.

Maybe not God's just unlucky guys stuck in the middle of Chaos. Sure there are airports that run things a lot tighter than those in Canada but it's a balance of being able to run it that tight and not have incidents. Individual controllers all choose how close to their limits, they want to run things and generally the ones that run it the tightest, appear to be the best controllers, but also have the scariest stories. Maybe us controllers should start mentioning about how bad the Canadian Pilots often are, in comparison to the American or other international pilots.

Marktheone I'm sorry if you have to fly a piece of shit, but a piece of shit is a piece of shit and I'm not a computer nor is any controller worldwide, so we'll all hold the opinion that its a piece of shit, even if it's made in Canada. I guess we just can't tell you that.