The life of a "New Hire"

[fng]

Some friends have been comparing "new hire" lives. Here is my top of the list:

1) on the 1st you get an "advance" of $790

2) on the 17th you get somewhere between $2000 and $2300 (depending on perdiems)

3) you get no perdiems for your first two weeks of training (= an out of pocket expense of at least $500)

4) you will most likely be on reserve for 6 to 12 months when you are hired = 4 guaranteed days off a month (have fun raising a family)

5)ACPA emails about the 'seniority issue', as if new hires care about guys who are making 4 times what whey are, and want to spend their uninon dues fighting for.

[babybus]

Guess we should have given the job to someone who really wanted it , has the big picture and can see slightly longer term than 6 months.
FNG go back to where you came from and give your job to someone who wants it and won't bitch after a few months.You make me sick.

[backon3]

Looks like we have to now screen for "whining" and "laziness". Don't like it?... don't come.

[mattedfred]

so fng should care about the concerns of the senior pilots at AC yet he shouldn't express concerns about his plight and you don't see them as valid

hmmmm

[Martin Tamme]

I was hired here 10 years ago.

Nothing has changed, except that under the last point, ACPA was protecting the senior pilots from an Air Ontario pilots lawsuit.

I didn't complain back then, and it was under the same conditions.

We all know, or should have known, about the wages & working conditions prior to coming.

I just hope that the next person doesn't complain that they didn't know what to expect.

[CAL]

I dare say that is likely why nothing has changed for the new hires.......
given...we all know what to expect at the bottom of a long list...but nothing wrong speaking your mind.

[sportingrifle]

Nothing wrong with speaking ones mind but there is a point that the new hires(and flight attendants) should remember. I, and other more senior pilots gave up a hell of a lot of "bargaining capital" to keep the airplanes that they are currently flying on the property. I personally couldn't care less if we operate RJ's or EMJ's but sacrificed pay and working conditions for "the greater common good." The nature of the career is balancing interests for the greatest good over the length of a career. While difficult to resist, we have to understand that there are forces at work whose goal is to divide and conquer. If you can't get the concept, you should probably go back to where you came from.
Harsh, but true.

[retired or retarded]

Granted complaining is not the best option, but to say people have a "choice" knowing what they are getting into is a little harsh and not really true. Most people come into AC with MANY years in the industry and are looking at their future as well. A lot of the new hires have worked towards AC for as much as 10 or more years in the industry before they get hired these days. Granted some of you have probably even been with AC a lot longer than that and I will not complain or bash AC but the new hire salaries are not easy to make a transition too! Saying no one should have the right to complain about it is like saying you also have a "choice" whether or not to stay after a merger that did not favour you. Some things are not fair and you do not have a "choice" about it. Those jobs that people have waited MANY years to move up from are there to anyone who does not like there current lot in life if the right to complain or improve things that were decided for you by others is not allowed and it is felt that new hires should go back to them if they feel "entitled" to too much. GO TEAM

[Jaques Strappe]

Nothing wrong with speaking ones mind but there is a point that the new hires(and flight attendants) should remember. I, and other more senior pilots gave up a hell of a lot of "bargaining capital" to keep the airplanes that they are currently flying on the property. I personally couldn't care less if we operate RJ's or EMJ's but sacrificed pay and working conditions for "the greater common good." The nature of the career is balancing interests for the greatest good over the length of a career. While difficult to resist, we have to understand that there are forces at work whose goal is to divide and conquer. If you can't get the concept, you should probably go back to where you came from.
Harsh, but true.

Plus 1!

[minimumsdecide]

Well FNG is appears they hired you because you have the right personality, you whine like many of the new hires.

Now before you start the soap opera story of working so long and hard to make it the big Air Canada, you accepted the job knowing the conditions, and if you did not know the conditions, you definitely an idiot.

You have a point about expressing your opinion on the forum, but complaining about the conditions is just like a jet engine running, it's whining.

If you do not like it, quit!

[MacDoo]

All of you senior guys who state, "if you don't like it, go back to where you came from", make me sick..., very childish. You also knew what the airline industry was like when you joined AC many years ago. So, I guess under your own logic, you should also take your 5, 10 or 20+ years and "go back to where you came from". We have a union to represent ALL of the membership. Not just the senior guys who think they have earned the right to be heard.

By the way, I am a senior Captain at AC, and I will be voting for the plight of the new hires in 2009.

[flapless]

HA HA HA!

you whine like many of the new hires.

Generalizing is fun!

[thrust set]

"By the way, I am a senior Captain at AC, and I will be voting for the plight of the new hires in 2009. "


Really a senior Captain!!!!!

I beg to differ.

[NewCPL]

I wanted to fly for BIG RED, but never got hired for some reason. Now you guys have guys who complain. Good selection process.

[babybus]

I wanted to fly for BIG RED, but never got hired for some reason. Now you guys have guys who complain. Good selection process.

NewCPL,

Keep trying every 6 month's.There are lot's of guys that get in on the second try.
As for the new hires that complain a lot,well they still have to get through probation.

[yycflyguy]

I have only heard of two candidates who did not make it through the probationary period and with the elimination of the probation exam it is even easier to coast through.... obviously cuz I am still here.

I don't think that FNG said anything that should be a shock to anyone. Flat pay is insulting. I was fortunate enough to have enough $$ squirreled away that I was able to survive the 2 years + 3 month flat pay but that savings nest egg is now long gone. Did I always want the job? You bet! Was I super excited to be hired? Without a doubt. Is it fair to subject the "future of the airline" to this introduction/welcome. Don't think so. Are there some green pilots disillusioned with the handling of the pay progression issue? You bet.

We all knew the terms signing on and I would like to think that those who applied, passed the testing, the interview process and ground school knew there would be short (more like medium) term pain for long term gain. One key area moving forward should be addressing future conditions for guys joining and stop the fragmentation of the pilot group. I doubt that positive change for new hires will happen though as the sentiment that "I had to go through it" is common.

[just curious]

See? I would have editted that too, but it was right on the money!

[Jaques Strappe]

While I do respect the "new hire" pilot, I find it is amazing how short memories are. When I got hired it took 4 years to get to the left seat. that was un heard of at the time. Two years of flat pay was difficult but it paid off in dividends. The guys who were my Captains, had gone through the flat pay and sat in the back as an S/O for many years. The latest group of new hires has seen direct entry into $100K plus positions or very short terms in the right seat of the Embraer. A position that once took almost 12 to 15 years before, has taken todays new hire less than two.

While I do agree that flat pay should be a thing of the past and pilots should be working together rather than apart, it saddens me to hear that the very new hire who is touting fairness for all, is really just saying, what is in it for me? All the while more senior pilots gave things up to allow more new hires in the first place. While we do need to address the issue, complaining about it on an internet forum does little for the plight in my opinion.

[yycflyguy]

Can I suggest that the reason that this crop of new hires are able to see the left seat of the Embraer after 1-2 years is because the pay is so out of whack with the rest of the fleet that it is not desirable to the senior end of the membership? For every "new hire" that snuck into the left seat to make $100k (which, I think you would agree, is a little more than half the pay of what a DC-9 Captain made over 10 years ago!!) means that around 3000 guys looked at the conditions and said "pass". The new hires did not negotiate the current contract (Yes, we also know that the last round of negotiations were done at the end of a shotgun barrel in CCAA). If it is an available position because 3000 guys passed on it I don't think the green pilots should be told how fortunate they are.

Having said all that, can we have a group hug now and move forward in solidarity for 09?

[Rubberbiscuit]

I think those are both great posts by yycflyguy. Out of the 600-700+ pilots hired throughout the last wave, how many made Captain within a year or two? I think the last few hired will endure a totally different lifestyle over the first few years with the company compared to the guys/girls that got on initially when the hiring started. Reserve only, followed by a lengthy stay in the paygroup.... potentially, and now notified of possible lay-off! Just saying that not all new hires will have the benefit of quick upgrades or fast tracking right through or even skipping paygroup.

[. .]

Certainly you realize of the 700+ new hires, there's less than 50 captains. The handful that managed to get onto the 767 FO have been reduced back onto the bus. Not to say that sitting at 40% on the bus after 2 years isn't pretty glorious. There's certainly lots of people on the bottom of the list of the position group planes with absolutely no hope of leaving before this decade is up though.

[bush pilot]

I think those are both great posts by yycflyguy. Out of the 600-700+ pilots hired throughout the last wave, how many made Captain within a year or two? I think the last few hired will endure a totally different lifestyle over the first few years with the company compared to the guys/girls that got on initially when the hiring started. Reserve only, followed by a lengthy stay in the paygroup.... potentially, and now notified of possible lay-off! Just saying that not all new hires will have the benefit of quick upgrades or fast tracking right through or even skipping paygroup.

Well said!

As well not all of us whine like an engine!

[sugarfree]

whats all this clamming about!!!

80% of the population does not have a combined family income of 100k, many are below the 30k yearly.

So you start at the bottom of the ladder and work up, tisk tisk, what expected 200k yearly with bonus,;0

SF./

[teacher]

Just because you knew about working conditions before you got hired doesn't mean you can't be unhappy about them and strive to make them better. There's many positive reasons why people made the "jump to AC" however it doesn't change the fact that senior pilots eat their young to protect their positions. There's proof on this board as some "senior" folks are attacking the new guy rather harshly. It's amazing how quickly some forget what it was like at the bottom. Yes it's true life is tough as a new hire however in the long run things will pay off, hopefully.

[yycflyguy]

whats all this clamming about!!!

80% of the population does not have a combined family income of 100k, many are below the 30k yearly.

So you start at the bottom of the ladder and work up, tisk tisk, what expected 200k yearly with bonus,;0

SF./

Wrong. You start at the industry bottom when you graduate from flight school and take your first job. The Air Canada "new hires" in my class had between 10 and 20 years of experience. Yes, there were a couple of exceptions (2 out of 18 had less than 7 years experience). "Working up the ladder" in the airline means keeping your nose out of trouble and waiting for the 3000 guys ahead of you to retire or medical out... until they decide that working to 60 isn't enough and launch discrimination suites claiming that 65 should be the new retirement age (even though they were fully aware of the age 60 retirement).

I never said I expected 200k a year. I never said I expected a bonus. What I take exception to is being told that after 18 years in aviation I have to accept the insulting "new hire pay" and be told that I am fortunate to have a job just because my predecessors went through it.