Port Push Out, Split Crews In

[Rotten Apple #1]

I don't think anyone's against it so much as it's becoming inefficient and expensive. 2 words we try to avoid at WJ(within reason). We spend, and it lose alot of money deadheading crews all over the country from YYC. Until the port system came along, people were starting to scream about it. There were flights where a significant percentage of the seats were non-rev, and I know for sure there were full flights that could have been more full of paying guests but we couldn't sell the seats due to the DH'ers. Making the ports work is great for everyone involved, the problem is that there are those based in YYC who seem to think that we(as a company) are catering to the commuters. Truth is, something had to give, and it just so happened we already had plenty of people in other bases who could make a crew and take some of the pressure off. YYC just can't be the hub we'd like it to be to keep it as a single-base airline. I think it's safe to say that no one want's a YYZ, YHZ base, YWG, or YVR base, for all the reasons already listed in this thread. We have an alternative that's in it's infancy stage, and needs to go to the next step, and I think it will, but there will be some noise made, no doubt. I don't know how else we can do it without bases.

Nicely done, Sir.

[Four1oh]

sometimes I get it right. Thanks.

[express]

IMHO, there'll be bases within 5 years. The port system isn't working that well and there obviously is not enough will to make it work beyond the token system that it currently is (not quite sure why, maybe that signal's a disconnect between upper management and line crew). There'll be a few ports and perhaps three bases. That's my prediction. My opinion is that the culture will be just fine. I just can't see why the sky would fall with an extra base or two. Maybe I'm into the culture too much, but I really think things would be just fine as long as we continue to promote it.

[Four1oh]

so how do you move people to these bases? Implement a senority system? I doubt enough people of enough job types would move willingly. Look at YWG and YYZ for instance. Heavy on FO's and FA's but not captains.

[Smitty]

so how do you move people to these bases? Implement a senority system? I doubt enough people of enough job types would move willingly. Look at YWG and YYZ for instance. Heavy on FO's and FA's but not captains.

Which is changing.

We should see about 6 or so upgraded YYZ FOs in the next 12 months or so.

[Ali G]

Upgrades are already seniority based. Just have the next X number of upgrades be based in Wherever. If you dont want to be based there, then you can wait for an upgrade in the base of your choosing. Simple enough really.

So, if the next upgrade is based in YUL, and you dont want to move there, then don't upgrade.

There has to be some starting point, we have to start somewhere. We have enough growth planned over the next 5 years to make this easily possible. I can also imagine that there would be many Captains who would move to other bases voluntarily, but dont because the Ports aren't effective enough at the moment. Why not take a survey and see those numbers?



This really has nothing to do with culture, that can be maintained.

Just my thoughts.

[Four1oh]

The ports are only as effective as the company allows. I highly doubt you'll see much support for bases from the pilots. Maybe I'm backasswards, but an opinion nevertheless.

[Ali G]

Almost every pilot I speak with seems quite open to bases.

At some point the logistics will be too costly to run the entire operation from one base. With our growth plan, it is inevitable.

So, the company can invest now for the growth 10 years from now, or spend a lot more later. I'm not a bean counter, but someone will be looking hard at those numbers soon enough. Just my thoughts really.

[Rotten Apple #1]

According to the EVP who ran the Crew Chat last week, the study commisioned last year revealed annual savings of 5 million a year by establishing bases.

Unfortunately the upfront cost was 50 million. (His numbers, as best I can recall).

I think it will be ports for a while.

Perhaps now would be a good time to establish the "Porting Flight Crew Association" at WJ. All flight crew enrolled in Ports would be elgibile. Could be an offshoot of PACT, so as not to ruffle feathers.

Now, who to run it?

[Four1oh]

WJ700 would be perfect, and since he's an expert on benefits, he can fix that too!

Maybe this whole situation could be solved by one of WJ's 'reinventing the wheel' tricks. Maybe a combination port/base system might work best for all, depending on how it worked. Personally I like how Southwest does it with their virtual base system, buuuut you'd have to throw out the 1 crew concept model to make that work.

[Ali G]

I guess that may be my point. How much will it cost to establish bases 10 years from now when you require them? Or, how much will you save per year in 10 years from now as the company grows. Perhaps in 10 years we will save 7.5 mill a year (as we add roughly 50% more fleet).

Also, if you can save 5 million a year, and cost 50 million to set up.....then in 10 years the investment might easily be realized making the winfall worth that much more from that point. Of course, this is all very optimistic.

How does Southwest's virtual base work, maybe that might need to be explored.

[neophyte]

Some good comments on the topic folks.

Here is my take... Every airport has a maximum number of aircraft it can sustain. What that number is for WJ in YYC specifically, I have no idea. That said, I do know that if WJ started in Prince George 12 years ago, there is no way it would have been able to efficiently grow into the airline we see today without a second base, virtual bases, ports etc. A choke point will arise eventually, it is simple logistics.

Regarding the base system, over the next 30 years, the initial cost and cost to maintain such a base will be overshadowed by the savings of such a base; however, that is the long term. I sure hope I am still a WJ'er in 30 years but the business is littered with failed airlines so perhaps we can't look that far into the future.

Regarding the YYZ port specifically, while there may be 6 more Capt upgrades forthcoming in the next 12 months, you have to factor in the new hires that choose to port out of YYZ. Since I started in the YYZ port we have added 1 Capt and 17 FOs. I get a call or an email about once a month from friends interested in joining WJ and how the port system works.

How all of this will effect the culture, I have no idea.

Happy WJing

[Red1]

I think there must be a better idea then bases, it's just no one has come up with anything yet. The port could work if they opened them up a bit allowed people to be in multiple ports, and start breaking up the front and back end. Once we start breaking up the crews, I think we could see a lot more efficiency in parings. This does NOT mean it's the end of the one crew concept, it simply changes. Hey and it might be better.. don't like someone on the crew, no worries you might only have to see them for a day or two. Again, I think we should work to a system of regardless where you live in the WJ system you always begin and end there (this might mean a DH).

[Rem]

Here's my little pet theory:

They figure out it'll cost $50mil or thereabouts to set up bases around the country. Then they notice that between the lure of the port system, a more commuter friendly policy, and housing prices in Calgary, nobody's moving anymore. In my groundschool there were 8 people, 7 are commuting and 1 already lived in YYC. When I started in January there were 20 FO's in YYZ. Now there are 40. So I'll bet they're thinking, just give it a few years and these "bases" will populate themselves. Eventually there will be almost enough people already living where they need bases and the moving and morale costs will be a fraction of what it would be if they did it today.

Then they could, if they wanted to, open up "bases" or something like it, hopefully in a uniquely WestJet way that will keep profits and morale up where they should be.

[neophyte]

Hi Rem,

I hear what you are saying regarding potential bases building themselves. That said, there will be those that will play the "we are YYC based, please compensate me for the move" (even though they commute). It is a potential costly maneuver. If a base were made now and people hired into it, the aforementioned moving expense would not be an issue. That said, from what I understand we aren't heading down the base road any time soon.

Cheers

Neo

[hifliers]

The problem with split crews is as follows.

The front end in WJ 600 is waiting in YYZ for a back end that is coming in from wherever on WJ 800. WJ 800 is late. Because of this, not only is WJ 800 late in leaving YYZ due to their late arrival, WJ 600 is late due to their having to wait for the WJ 800 back end. One late aircraft delays two.

If the 1cc is adhered to, the only delayed flight will be WJ 800, due to their late arrival. WJ 600 is NOT affected and departs on time, to the happiness of all.

This is not rocket science.

[commuter]

If the company gave DH credit the port would not be a problem IMHO.
Sending a captain to where ever to begin the next day would be an option.
Seems the port issues are that we are light on Captains and also that the pairings seem to not be to great. Let's face it who wants a bunch of single day pairings out of toronto.
Lot's of commuters that don't sign up for the port because of the pairing types.

[Four1oh]

The problem with split crews is as follows.

The front end in WJ 600 is waiting in YYZ for a back end that is coming in from wherever on WJ 800. WJ 800 is late. Because of this, not only is WJ 800 late in leaving YYZ due to their late arrival, WJ 600 is late due to their having to wait for the WJ 800 back end. One late aircraft delays two.

If the 1cc is adhered to, the only delayed flight will be WJ 800, due to their late arrival. WJ 600 is NOT affected and departs on time, to the happiness of all.

This is not rocket science.

Good point, but IROPS are still IROPS aren't they? We already have these issues with all the plane swaps we have on any given day, the same issue is happening isn't it?