Needing words of wisdom

[Pilot-Wanabee]

Hello Fellow Aviators,
I’m not sure as to whether this is the forum to post my query and I’m not sure whether this subject has been covered on here before. If it has, kindly pardon me for asking again... I’m an aspiring aviator and a late bloomer. I caught the flying bug a little too late in my life. I’m currently 31 years old and in the process of getting my PPL and eventually continue on to tackle my CPL.
However, I’m debating on whether it’s maybe best for me to purchase my own aircraft (I’m thinking Cessna 172 IFR equipped) as I’ll be able to accumulate my hours sooner, but to also bring my training cost down for other ratings (i.e. IFR). I’m thinking it would be cheaper in the wrong run and I would maybe get most of my money back once I’m through with training and after selling my aircraft.
I’ve thought about working as a CFI but this is not something that is cut out for everyone. I’ve also thought about bush flying in various parts of the world and maybe if buying my own aircraft doesn’t work out I’ll settle for the bush flying. However, I feel like my age is against me.
Any suggestions out there, in Av Canada land that might be of good use?

[cgzro]

There is a reason why flying clubs charge what they do for rental aircraft and its mostly to cover costs. Very little of that goes into profit.

The secret to low hourly flying costs is to fly A LOT. This divides your yearly fixed costs like insurance/annual/tie-down/hanger by more hours and reducs their impact per hour.

There will be some trade-off point where owning is more expensive than renting. I'd hazard a guess that most owners are paying more per hour to operate their planes than they could if they rented it, however they prefer a known plane, available when they want it that they can leave anywhere as long as they like etc. In otherwords the convenience makes up for the increased costs of ownership and casual use v.s. rental.

Anyway for a plane like a 172 costs are a pretty well known quantity and you can certainly figure it all out in a spread sheet to know what will work best for you. Just make sure you plug in realistic numbers and the best way to do that is to look at actual bills from an aircraft owner.

Just asking somebody what it costs approx per hour will get you wild under estimates of cost because major items like engine overhaul may not have occured yet.

One thing you could do is grab the log book for a 172, look at the maintenance items done over the last say 10 years, put approx numbers to them and add it all up, divide by 10 then phone and insurance company and add in a yearly insurance rate, add in the tie down fees, add in a 'no real work' annual cost and then divide by 200 hrs/year or so to get your dry hourly rate.

[sugarfree]

HI,

I was flying in the late 70's and early 80's then stopped. I am rejoining the ranks and I am 52. Never too old for anything.

Your thoughts on aquiring an a/c is a great idea. Presently I am looking to do the same with a twin, but I also was able to recruit some partners in my purchase.

Maybe if you talk to some of your flying buddies, you may find that joint ownership is a good way to go.

Though you should know that the purchase price on any a/c is only the tip of the iceberg.

You need to look at insurance, maintenance, overhauls, etc etc, hanger fees, so on ....

But yes its very doable, but please enlist the help of people in know and do not be too impulsive in your purchase.


I do wish you the best in your new purchase and flying career...

BTW where are you located ??

SF./

[AuxBatOn]

Maybe if owners could post here some of the realistic prices one can expect when purchasing an airplane (insurance, hangar/tie down, overhaul, maintenance, etc) that would be great!

[Old Dog Flying]

I own a relatively low cost Grumman Yankee and if I were to think about operating costs I'd probably take up knitting.

But you asked so here goes: Fuel: 28 litres/hour at $1.78 per litre; Insurance: full coverage including hull: 1700.00 per year...but then again I'm 70+ and the asshole insurance companies screw us old fart real good; I bought a hangar bay but my share of the taxes and lease: $500.00/year; maintenance is not too bad as I do owner assisted annuals and if no unusual repairs I can figure on $600.00/year. ELT certification: $100.00/year but who knows what the shops will charge for a 406 mhz elt servicing. Oil changes: just paid $120.00 for a case of 12 Aeroshell 15W50...2 changes per year...do them myself.

In the 12 years that I've owned it, I've spent a load on restoration over and above the regular stuff. The new paint job set me back over $4000.00 and we did it ourselves! The little Lycoming 0-235 C2C with everything new was over $20K but then again there was an STC'd upgrade and that cost quite a bit over a regular overhaul.

And I fly less than 50 hours per year...but it's mine...mine...mine!

And stay away from partnerships...they don't work and you'll just get screwed.....

[MichaelP]

In Europe and the UK group ownership is the only way people get to fly for a reasonable cost and groups generally work well.
It all depends upon the people you get into your group... One thing though, they can't be too democratic, someone has to take a leading role and ensure everything is done.

Here people are of a different culture; people are more independent.
There are many Cessna 172s owned by private owners who buy one to enjoy... They take their few friends flying and then it's done... Flying a four seat aeroplane on ones own soon gets boring and the aeroplane spends more and more time on the ground. Every airport here has abandoned Cessna 172s sitting around, occasionally getting a 100 hour check done, and their owners eventually put them up for sale at a price that reflects the low hows and original condition but not the present condition with latent work stored in unused and corroding components.

"Fractional" is the new word here, but it takes time to catch on.
Certainly fractional ownership is the way to get many more hours flown on the aircraft and so reduce individual cost.

[iflyforpie]

Every airport here has abandoned Cessna 172s sitting around, occasionally getting a 100 hour check done, and their owners eventually put them up for sale at a price that reflects the low hows and original condition but not the present condition with latent work stored in unused and corroding components.

So true! Most of the annuals I've done this year had less than 10 hours in the logbook and a couple none at all


If you can do all of your training to CPL within a calendar year (~200hrs), you are only paying for one year's worth of insurance, one year's worth of hangarage/parking, and one annual inspection (for calender items like compass swing, ELT, etc). The oil changes and 100 hour inspections you will have to do anyways.

There are risks though. Having an engine come up for overhaul or repair unexpectedly (usually the TBO is reflected in the price of the aircraft; ones with newer engines are proportionally more expensive), and also sitting on the aircraft when you decide to sell it in what is now a pretty stagnant market (and probably going to get worse).

Major airframe problems (other than avionics which give you no warning when they are going to pack it in) are easily detected during an annual inspection and a pre-purchase inspection by an AME of your choosing should determine if all the records are complete, inspections properly done, and ADs complied with.

Other factors are finding a school that is willing to train you in your own plane (there are quite a few, but not all will do it) and what they will charge for doing it (typically they will add on a 'syllabus fee' to recover the profit they are not making by renting their aircraft).

[sugarfree]

A little offtopic and sorry for hijacking

But how is the situation in Canada for owner assisted maintenance ??

Thanks and sorry for the hijack

SF./

[iflyforpie]

Owner assisted is welcome at my shop (but I do charge a minimum for an annual). I hate pulling panels, seats, cleaning parts, vacuuming, and organizing all the junk in the plane (I need an apprentice)