The life of a "New Hire"

[rudder]

The reality is WJ pays F/0's 50K+options in the 2nd year, Canjet and Sunwing start F/O's at a higher salary than AC. We should be the best paying job in the country.

True, but the reality is that AC flies smaller semi-regional (73-seat) aircraft at the entry level.

[. .]

The WJ stock option that many have bought into is about to start retuning nothing unless WJ stock rallies massively. Take for example someone who got options last January at $22. The stock is sitting below $12 now, so even with WJ matching your shares, you've invested a lot of money that most couldn't really afford to spend at 50k/yr, and have made less than a GIC.

[yycflyguy]

AC had the ability to take these "new hires" and start with a clean slate. These are pilots that came post-merger and CCAA, and for the most part are very happy to be on the property...

Now lets highlite the latest pay progression issue that many of the new hires were not completely brought up to speed on. Many were told in the interview by our HR professionals that position group salary/pay group was for 2 years then you can expect to jump to formula pay. In fact its 2 years plus (a maximum) of 90 days.

This adds up to approx to a 10-12K difference in salary expectation for the first year in formula pay. And now the one glimmer of hope to see that corrected was dropped in the "pay progression grievance." These new hires have the right to be heard. If you don't like opinions don't visit this site. My point is, why not take a new pilot, clean slate and make him proud, and happy to be on the property. Instead the logic is to put you through 27 months of the flat pay grinder, and then spit you out the other end in so many pieces it takes you another 3 yrs just to get back on your feet.

The reality is WJ pays F/0's 50K+options in the 2nd year, Canjet and Sunwing start F/O's at a higher salary than AC. We should be the best paying job in the country.

This attitude of "Well, I had to go through it, and so do you" thing has to go. I say go new hires!

Spot on.

It is surprising to me that the unilaterially dropped pay progression issue has been so quiet. I recently voted on merger seniority issues and on changing the ACPA logo but when something as important to so many members as the pay progression is dropped without a vote or MEC consultation it shakes my confidence in the process.

[daveg]

The WJ stock option that many have bought into is about to start retuning nothing unless WJ stock rallies massively. Take for example someone who got options last January at $22. The stock is sitting below $12 now, so even with WJ matching your shares, you've invested a lot of money that most couldn't really afford to spend at 50k/yr, and have made less than a GIC.

We also have 4 years to cash it out. Only way it would be under water this year is if this IS the 4th year. No second year FO's have stock they can cash in so its a moot point. In two years it could be a boat load if bought at $12 and is at $22 then. Who knows though. Personally i'd like to see stock options of ZERO percent and get a higher wage, but were working on that for our next agreement. Here's hoping.

[. .]

The WJ stock option that many have bought into is about to start retuning nothing unless WJ stock rallies massively. Take for example someone who got options last January at $22. The stock is sitting below $12 now, so even with WJ matching your shares, you've invested a lot of money that most couldn't really afford to spend at 50k/yr, and have made less than a GIC.

We also have 4 years to cash it out. Only way it would be under water this year is if this IS the 4th year. No second year FO's have stock they can cash in so its a moot point. In two years it could be a boat load if bought at $12 and is at $22 then. Who knows though. Personally i'd like to see stock options of ZERO percent and get a higher wage, but were working on that for our next agreement. Here's hoping.

Good luck on your contract negotiations in 2008. I for one hope you guys absolutely smash one out of the park, so everyone else can use your contract as the standard.

[daveg]

Amen brother!!

[Jaques Strappe]

Nope $2,910 to be exact! Take home..after the taxman

= no overtime for flat pay...its nice to see you know how flat pay works
= no draft for flat pay.

I honestly appreciate those who understand where people im my situation are comming from.

Ok, so $2910 take home, after tax, at a nominal tax rate of 30% equals approximately $45,600 for the year and that is all pensionable and does not include benefits on the airlines lowest paying most junior airframe.

.....The reality is WJ pays F/0's 50K+options in the 2nd year, Canjet and Sunwing start F/O's at a higher salary than AC. We should be the best paying job in the country.

This is the airlines only airframe.


So don't get me wrong because once again, I think salaries are too low "Industry Wide" and I am against the pay group, as I have said before but I am sorry, based on your own data, I just don't see the argument you guys are trying to present.

[Martin Tamme]

Nope $2,910 to be exact! Take home..after the taxman

= no overtime for flat pay...its nice to see you know how flat pay works
= no draft for flat pay.

I would like to think I have a pretty good working knowledge of the Collective Agreement. Have you read Article 17.01.01.06 & SR 15.06.01?

17.01.01.06
Pilots on flat salary will have an hourly rate established by dividing their applicable monthly rate by seventy-eight (78). This hourly rate will be paid for those hours flown in excess of seventy-eight (78) hours up to the designated monthly maximum. At no time will they earn less than their applicable monthly rate regardless of the designated monthly maximum.


This means that your Flat Pay is based on 78 hours a month. If the DMM is higher, and you fly more, you will be paid the overtime for every minute flown in excess of 78 hours..


SR15.06.01
A draft premium equal to twenty-five (25) % of the pay hours and credits will be paid (cash cleared) including any applicable THG or DPG when one of the following conditions apply:

The 25% draft premium applies to all, including Flat Paid salaried pilots.

[Martin Tamme]

FNG:

If you were not properly paid, please contact the ACPA Scheduling Hotline. They will immediately file a pay claim on your behalf.

[fng]

Thanks!

I'm looking into it.

[PIKEY]

2009 contract ??? Seems the senior guys are too concerned about fighting over seniority AGAIN.... The new guys are gonna get the shaft and not even get the reach around!!!!

[Brick Head]

2009 contract ??? Seems the senior guys are too concerned about fighting over seniority AGAIN.... The new guys are gonna get the shaft and not even get the reach around!!!!

I'm sorry but this kind of talk just piss's me off. I am 110% behind fixing the inequities for everyone that are within our CA. Including those that affect you. Unity starts with respecting, not devaluing, the issues of everyone within the group.

The present seniority situation will be done or dead by next June.

Senior and junior. The pay issue is common to both. You think it is just a "shafting" of the junior? You don't know the facts.

777 formula pay based on reduced weight.
787 formula pay based on reduced weight.
320 formula minus 5%
EMJ not even on formula. which has in turn created the PG crap.


The only 2 aircraft on formula are the 767 and the 330. Which are slated next to leave.

Getting the picture? It is an attack on the group as a whole. During CCAA the company commenced an attack on the very way we are paid. You don't think the whole group will rally around this? You think you got it bad now? Considering everything seems to end in arbitration, take a look 20 years down the road when arbitrators are making decisions without the constraints formula pay puts on them within our CA.

The fix is simple.

NO MORE DISCOUNTING FOR ANYONE.

[PIKEY]

Brick head,, i certainly hope the seniority issue is dead by next year.. My only concern is that it will be a top priority rather then placing the emphasis on matters of more importance...Priorities vary with the individual but lets focus on improving the conditions for our group as a whole...

[rudder]

B/H - AC pay is already out of whack with the rest of the industry and you want more? Bonne chance.

[flapless]

B/H - AC pay is already out of whack with the rest of the industry and you want more? Bonne chance.

Wow... that has to be the most confusing comment I've read on this forum. Out of whack pay?? With who is AC wages out of whack? If you don't mind could you supply us with your direct comparison.
Westjet 737 pilots are payed more than AC 320 pilots. Or, Rudder, if you want take a look at overseas wages go ahead.

Flapless

[Machiavelli]

At WestJet we may be paid more but it can be argued that we work more. Apples to apples and it hasn't been done yet. Until somebody smart sits down and figures out what an A-320 pilot at Air Canada gets paid/hour at every year in both seats including everything from pensions to drycleaning to benefits vs what WestJet pays its pilots/hour including options, ESPP, etc you can't say WestJet pays it's pilots more.













Edited for spelling

[CAL]

just pay your guys enough...they know what the dollar figure is....they know...it is their primary function to make sure you never get it......it has little to do with saving the company money as the dollar value based on what the airline spends is somewhat small in comparison to managers and VP's etc....its not a million bucks...just enough....pay your loan....kids school fees...car bill....groceries...a vacation a year...the basics in Canadian society....come together as a group....at the end of the day you are all the same...we are all the same...or similar....help the new guy(remember he may be older than you)...and in the future he will help the next new guy....f--k the new guy and this chain continues forvever...stop f--king the new guy...they have bills also...

[rudder]

B/H - AC pay is already out of whack with the rest of the industry and you want more? Bonne chance.

Wow... that has to be the most confusing comment I've read on this forum. Out of whack pay?? With who is AC wages out of whack? If you don't mind could you supply us with your direct comparison.
Westjet 737 pilots are payed more than AC 320 pilots. Or, Rudder, if you want take a look at overseas wages go ahead.

Flapless

Where are most of AC's ASM's generated - overseas? No. North America.

On a currency adjusted basis, AC has the highest hourly pay rates of any North American legacy carrier. And do not forget to add another 30% to cover pension and benefits expense.

And what is with the obsession with WJ? Take their work rules, their hourly rates, and their pension (oops - they don't have one) and perhaps your point would have merit. I guess that it would also help if AC could be consistently profitable like WJ. That is not likely.

[737daytripper]

Rudder,

You sound like someone from Jazz who would like to take flying away from AC so that you could do it for even less $.

[rudder]

Rudder,

You sound like someone from Jazz who would like to take flying away from AC so that you could do it for even less $.

No, just trying to get the discussion based on facts not rhetoric.

[flapless]

you can't say WestJet pays it's pilots more.

You are right it is very difficult to say who is paid more. The only wages I could find from Westjet online had a 25% stock option. So a straight up wage comparison would be very difficult. Less the 25% option westjet was within a few grand pay wise.

On a currency adjusted basis, AC has the highest hourly pay rates of any North American legacy carrier. And do not forget to add another 30% to cover pension and benefits expense.

A basic wage comparison:
AMR 176,037. 12yr 737 pilot.
CO 159,197. 12yr SN pilot.
Delta 163,402. 12yr 737 pilot.
United 144,292. 12yr 320 pilot.
NW 147,437. 12yr 320 pilot.
Air Canada 159,360 12yr 320 pilot.
These wages are based on an 80hr month over a 12 month period- all converted to Canadian funds as of today. Also the 30% to cover pension and benefits would apply to all legacy carriers.
Although AC is at the upper end of legacy carriers I still fail to see your point that AC wages are out of whack.
flapless

[Brick Head]

B/H - AC pay is already out of whack with the rest of the industry and you want more? Bonne chance.

Rudder,

Looks like everyone else beat me to the punch.

For your edification.

Getting every aircraft on formula pay is more important to our collective future than a straight across pay increase. If we loose that benchmark, we will be in serious hurt as arbitrators start to get the impression it is no longer a standard practice.

No I do not expect miracles come 2009. I do however expect progress.

At the moment our E190 FO's are not even making 69% of a E190 CA wage as other narrow body FO's do (12 year). In many cases they are making less than 60% of a CA wage which is already the most discounted wage in the fleet at over 15% from formula. On top of that no night pay either.

We are not talking one discount here. We are talking discount on top of discount on top of discount.

Putting the E190 on formula pay without any increase to the CA wage at all would be roughly a $5- $12/hour increase to the EMJ day rate pay progression. (Did the math fast using the 320/DC-9 as a comparison.)

The extra discounting to our most junior members is absurd and must end.

I expect that to change. And believe it will, even in front of an mediator.

If it doesn't my vote will be NO.

Although our goal, no discounting period, may not be attainable immediately, there is no reason to expect that progress can not be made, particularly for the group most disadvantaged at the moment.

[Brick Head]

Rudder,


An E190 FO taday makes 63% of the pre CCAA DC-9 FO wage.

By far the hardest hit position bar none for anyone working for AC or any affiliate.

As of today ( not adjusted for inflation) a comparison of pre CCAA wages.

E190 FO down 37%
E190 CA down 28%
A320 CA/FO down 20%

What is your wage in comparison to pre CCAA levels?

[E-Flyer]

Some friends have been comparing "new hire" lives. Here is my top of the list:

1) on the 1st you get an "advance" of $790

2) on the 17th you get somewhere between $2000 and $2300 (depending on perdiems)

3) you get no perdiems for your first two weeks of training (= an out of pocket expense of at least $500)

4) you will most likely be on reserve for 6 to 12 months when you are hired = 4 guaranteed days off a month (have fun raising a family)

5)ACPA emails about the 'seniority issue', as if new hires care about guys who are making 4 times what whey are, and want to spend their uninon dues fighting for.

Guess this is might be an example of an individual who didn't enjoy the ride and thought it was all about the airlines. Great Example !


Maybe now that you've realized the reality behind it all you'll strictly enforce enjoying the ride along to people looking up to your for answers one day !

Try to make the best out of it, and realize that you have to pay your dues before getting to pick your virgins. Haha

[yycflyguy]

B/H - AC pay is already out of whack with the rest of the industry and you want more? Bonne chance.

The extra discounting to our most junior members is absurd and must end.

I expect that to change. And believe it will, even in front of an mediator.

If it doesn't my vote will be NO.

Although our goal, no discounting period, may not be attainable immediately, there is no reason to expect that progress can not be made, particularly for the group most disadvantaged at the moment.

Have you no faith man! Everything will be resolved without the need for arbitration!!

Agree 100% with your thoughts.