anybody been called yet?

[KAG]

Is it hard to train someone to fly a 737? Not with the proper experience it isn’t. Even without it can be done at a much higher cost.

But WJ is about safety and efficiency. It’s cheaper to train someone with 5000 hours and previous 705/jet/heavy turbo prop/FMS time then say a 5000 hour King Air driver (as much as I hate to admit that). And let’s not forget supply and demand – there are a lot of Jazz, Canjet and other airline pilots who are applying with solid resumes, good attitudes and internal references.
It’s not just the hands and feet part, it’s the SOP’s, the flows, learning our lengthy RMP departure and approach setups, learning how to use the FMS/EFIS and for some never being in a full motion sim. If you have never been exposed to these before it takes longer and therefore costs more.

That being said I do feel were missing out of some sharp solid guys at the northern companies who lack heavy time.
I'd rather work with someone who has a great attitude then a flying rocket scientist with the personality of stale toast.

[AuxBatOn]

But WJ is about safety and efficiency. It’s cheaper to train someone with 5000 hours and previous 705/jet/heavy turbo prop/FMS time then say a 5000 hour King Air driver (as much as I hate to admit that).

I don't really agree it would be cheaper at that point. If you go from Jazz to Westjet, SOPs will be new, FMS is different, everything is different.

And let’s not forget supply and demand – there are a lot of Jazz, Canjet and other airline pilots who are applying with solid resumes, good attitudes and internal references.

I agree that a company will look for the more experienced guys, however, I think the attitude has more to do with time training than hours.

It’s not just the hands and feet part, it’s the SOP’s, the flows, learning our lengthy RMP departure and approach setups, learning how to use the FMS/EFIS and for some never being in a full motion sim. If you have never been exposed to these before it takes longer and therefore costs more.

This is just things you learn by heart. This isn't something that requires 5000 hours of heavy PIC time to do. Give a motivated 2000 hrs King Air guy 2 days and I bet you he could be as proficient as anyone else doing the training in the same period of time. What's so special about a level D simulator? It's just a more realistic/moving simulator. Nothing different than flying an airplane. FMS? It's just a beefed up GPS basically. Once you know what does what (just like a GPS), you are good to go. And again, it's just something you learn by heart and practice on your dandy emulator. EFIS? if anything, it's probably easier to use than steam gauges for someone that has flown some IFR. I never touched a steam gauge of my life and it didn't take me a zillion hours to learn it. It took me probably a good 15 minutes to understand what does what.

That being said I do feel were missing out of some sharp solid guys at the northern companies who lack heavy time.
I'd rather work with someone who has a great attitude then a flying rocket scientist with the personality of stale toast.

Yup, that's why I think Westjet's hiring practices are not right. Hire on attitude and aptitute to learn rather than on hours. 5000 hours flying on Autopilot doesn't mean you'll be able to learn the new stuff quickly.

I think a 2000 hours King Air guy can be as useful in the cockpit as a 5000 hours 704/705 guy.

Just as a quick question, what do you think about a 300 hours guy doing right seat on a A310? Is he useless?

[rightseatwonder]

My 2 cents,

I believe the problem is a combination of the time frame in which they train, and the limits to the program as it exists.
I have been told that as they evaluate their program for new hires each year, they look at the numbers to determine if any patterns exist in terms of extra sessions, and extra training, wash-outs etc. and they have found in the last 18months or so, that the new hires that were being left behind, that needed the most extra sessions, that were not making it through, were coming from 704/703 turbo-prop backgrounds.

It says nothing to the skills of all pilots from that area of the industry but more likely exposes the limits of the training program as it exists now, to prepare them for immediate success on the ride. The fact that the pilots having trouble are not from one particular company or one part of the country but from similar TYPES of operations shows that the program is leaving them behind somewhere along the way.

They are running the sims 18hrs a day, and the training staff are running ragged.... not only are they line flying, but with all the upgrades, there are line checks, ETOPS checks, upgrade line checks, extra sessions, ETOPS G/S, command course g/s, annual g/s etc etc etc... plus we have no reserve system and all sicks days are covered on a volunteer for extra flying basis, or cold calls to pilots on days off. What I'm saying is that on the captain side of things these folks are busy... SO....

Rather than redesigning the whole system, it seems they have decided as a matter of course (for the next while anyways), to draw from the pool of 705/JET/EFIS/Sim experienced pilots so as to avoid as much extra costs as possible until there are no longer any applicants that meet the higher qualifications. Apparently there are something like 1800 or so.

Hey, I came from the turbo-prop pool myself, I was challenged in the course, my hair was on fire half the time! but I too think that any professional minded pilot with an ATPL and some twin turbo command experience and enough training could do it... ( if I can do it anybody can!) but this is a FOR PROFIT organization.... I'd think they would want to give the applicants the greatest chance for success while risking the least amount of training costs. and with the amount of resumes they have ... they are pulling from that group. Only time will tell if it has any effect on extra sessions, decreased cost etc this year.


good luck to all applying, lots of A/C still on the way (if Boeing gets back to work soon!)

cheers

[Flightlevels]

You guys are focused on the technical aspect too much. You can train anyone to fly the NG. No arguement. The real life, real maturity, real weather, real decision making skills and irop experience of a 5000 hr pilot vs. a 2000 hr pilot is the biggest difference. Don't forget the 5000 hr guy is coming with the same internal recommends, coming with the same attitude that the alleged 2000 hr guy has. With a market place that now supports a higher time guy...I'd say WS is in the drivers seat. The new age, sense of entitlement is alive and well. One has to simply ask - who would be more helpfull to a captain on a dark dirty night in a high stress environment? king air guy with a good attitude flying in northern Canada? Yes they have a specialized background, but it draws no parrallel to WS. I would rather and so does WS have a corporate jet guy familiar with NY center ops and alternates. A Jazz guy familliar with flow control patterns and experiences gained at the old shop with similar dispatch support. Military guy that has been trained extensively with task management. An airline guy flying the same jets on the same routes. Don't forget these guys can have the same great attitude that everyone references and come internally recommended - just like the king air guy flying up north. So whom, if you had to decide, looks better on training stats, looks better for the company interests, and looks better for the shareholders interests? Still won't eliminate all risk, however it increases the odds in favour of not having to expose one to unecessary risk.

WS is in the drivers seat. They simply hire who they like/want. simple as that. Washouts are down, extra training is down, moral has changed little even with 900 plus pilots now, so in my mind you can't discount what they do. It's fair and above board. Someone once said "westjet doesn't treat you like a commodity in the interview/hiring process"

WS also still hires 704 types if anyone has forgot. However the resume pile from what I understand is about 3 times higher than the 705 etc. = you might wait a long time if your holding out on the 703 machine.

JMHO

[KAG]

I’ll be the first to stand up for hiring from the 704’s again.
I went from Borek to Jazz to WJ. I can tell you with all honesty it is A LOT easier (and cheaper) the second time around doing a 705 ground school. Having seen a lot of the same stuff at Jazz took a lot of the stress out of the training. There are obvious differences, and some new things to learn, but the biggest challenge to a pilot on GS is differentiating between what is nice to know, what is need to know, and where to get it.

I honestly think I could sit a King Air driver down, and over a few beers and a plate (or 2) of wings remove a lot of the stress of the course simply by explaining what to focus on at each level and where to get that info. It’s very easy to overwhelm yourself by trying to inhale everything – it can’t be done, there is too much material. Argue what ever you want, it is cheaper to train someone who has seen it before and is familiar with advanced avionics.

AuxBatOn; the biggest misconception you have about the WJ hiring practice is that we only hire for hours, we don’t. Aside from a level of experience that I’m sorry you don’t agree with, you still have to pass the interviews, and that is all about attitude and personality. The occasional good guy still gets turned down, and the odd prick does make it through, it’s not perfect but it’s second to none.

Oh, and yes I do think a 300 hour pilot is useful in a A310 (or whatever 705 machine) someone has to operate the flaps, gear, run the checklists and do the paper work. As for flying the machine in all types of conditions and weather – not a chance.

[daveg]

Well put KAG.

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

Take it easy on ol' Aux Bat, he was just looking for a reason to mention that he flies fighter jets.

[Phileas Fogg]

Yep, well put KAG, you're dead on the money...

There is a big difference between 703/704 and 705 (especially for northern folks), and if I was Westjet I would want people who have already 'jumped that gap'.

[AuxBatOn]

Take it easy on ol' Aux Bat, he was just looking for a reason to mention that he flies fighter jets.

Sure whatever you think.

AuxBatOn; the biggest misconception you have about the WJ hiring practice is that we only hire for hours, we don’t. Aside from a level of experience that I’m sorry you don’t agree with, you still have to pass the interviews, and that is all about attitude and personality. The occasional good guy still gets turned down, and the odd prick does make it through, it’s not perfect but it’s second to none.

KAG: Thanks for your answer. How would you feel about a "test" that evaluates how quick you learn? I agree that having seen how a more "complex" thing work must be easier on the stress, however if someones can get him/herself out of that mindset, I still don't believe it's harder to learn a 737 coming from a RJ or a King Air.

Since you came from Jazz, how different was the training on the RJ and the 737 (taking apart the difference in airframe)? Was it longer because you had never flown a "complex" airplane before?

[jjj]

I believe that it is up to the individual more than the resume in order to be successful at WS. That has been proven time and time again by guys that have gone from king airs and twotters right to the 37. I suppose that these guys were pros long before they flew the glass and were good at their trade.

Finding these pros is the kicker though as not all king air and twotter types have been succesful.

A 37 course is certainly not harder that an RJ course. But at least after an RJ course is completed - a certain level of weeding out has been done. After that I just want to know if a guy/gal has a good head on his/her shoulders and that we can get along on the road.

[WJ700]

It can't be that easy to fly. I'm heading for 4000 hours on the 737 and still very confused...

(yes, I've just come home from work and having a few beers while posting )


Being serious. I think KAG hit the nail... it's just cheaper to take a Jazz guy. Jazz does a medical, a similar interview, simulator(or used to anyway), and a descent selection. They then train the pilot very well (they're training department is fantastic) and then from some recent bad culture at Jazz and it being a roadblock to Air Canada, the supply of resumes comes to WestJet. Of course they will take them, its easy picking. However, they haven't all been high time people. They have hired some excellent folks in the 3500 hour range with University degrees and not necessarily from Jazz. I've just flown with a few who have been from Bearskin and no, I coudn't tell which was butter and which was margerine.

I also worked at KF a long time ago and one of the best Captain's to work with there came with no hours to the back seat, then the right, then the left. He's still one of the best personalities that I've worked with. So that would tell me that it really comes down to personality winning on all counts. But in the case of the WestJet Pilot Selction Team, if you only have 30 minutes to meet someone... the resume, sponsors and hours will help.

[goaroundthrust]

Anybody know how many will be hired now that the downturn is here and boeing is on strike . I heard WJ will only be getting one new airplane in 2009 ?
any input ?
Thanks ..

[Smitty]

As of right now, there is no need to change the plans going foreward. Boeing strike aside, I believe we are still slated to recieve all forecast deliveries in '09.

[wrc]

Gee Kag, well put. Thanks for the long version of my short response.

It's very simple.

[Ryan Coke2]

10 forecast deliveries for 2009, any less will only be due to the Boeing strike.

[Cloud 9]

I agree that having seen how a more "complex" thing work must be easier on the stress, however if someones can get him/herself out of that mindset, I still don't believe it's harder to learn a 737 coming from a RJ or a King Air.

For what it's worth.... I came off a 1900 and the transition to the NG was like literally learning to fly all over again. Yes, they are 'that' different.....

[AuxBatOn]

Cloud 9, thanks for your comment. It makes me re-think what I taught for sure! What did you find hard about the training, going from a 1900 to a 737? What could have made it easier? Do you believe the RJ (or the like) training would have been easier?

[Cloud 9]

I guess it's just a whole new philosophy and hence, mind-set. There are numerous examples of this however I'll try to hit on the ones that were obvious to me....

Firstly, we are neither required nor expected to have an intricate knowledge of the systems on board the machine. For example, on previous aircraft I could have easily rattled off figures and systems knowledge whereas with this machine, it's all about checklists, simplicity and colored arcs on our engine displays.... Sounds easy? Sure! Way more so than previous machines however the whole philosophy is different. Silly as this may sound, it's hard to resist the temptation to 'go deeper' on systems knowledge. Going deeper potentially encourages one to question checklists and procedures whereas they're looking for people to follow the training, procedures and react in the desired manner. There is so much to the machine that I still feel as though I'm just scratching the surface on all there is to know.....

Secondly, hands-on flying is minimal. The autopilot is usually engaged through 500' after departure and not 'normally' disengaged till within a 1000' of the deck on final. Learning to manage the autoflight systems is a challenge in itself. Knowing what 'mode' you're in, what the logic is behind that mode and getting it to do exactly as you desire can be difficult to say the least. Sure, heading changes are easy (spin the heading bug and engage 'heading select') but start throwing VNAV, LNAV, RNPs, etc in to the mix and things get a little more difficult. Furthermore, I find the autopilot very abrupt for the most part and am now striving to discover and use modes that create the smoothest transitions for our guests.

Back to an earlier point, hand flying is not necessarily 'discouraged'. I try to hand fly departures/arrivals as much as possible as I'm worried about losing those skills. However, wanting to 'hand fly' can be a selfish endeavour. As soon as the autopilot is disengaged, the PNF becomes a very busy person. All of a sudden, they're doing everything that you would have done with the AP engaged (e.g., managing the automation) at the direction of the PF in addition to handling the radios and programming the FMC. I wouldn't dream of hand flying into our out of a busy airport in crappy weather as there's a good chance I'll task saturate my Captain.

Energy management is very, very different. Ok, it's not a 'big' jet but when you're used to slowing down by pulling the thrust levers back on a turboprop and having the machine slow down on a dime, the NG takes a helluva lot more fore-thought. The machine has such an efficient wing that one could easily find ones-self hot and high. Whereas in previous jobs, visuals approaches directly to a mile or two final were the easiest things in the world, now not-so-much.... To achieve our stabilized approach criteria, short cuts offered by ATC can be a recipe for a severe gong show.

The FMC takes some getting used to. Sure, the basics are covered religiously in initial training however 'the box' is capable of quite a bit more than they touch on in ground school.

There are a whole bunch of other things I could go in to but quite frankly I'm tired. To sum it up, it was a lot more difficult than I thought it would be going in. I had 6500+ hours when I was hired and that certainly became useful during line indoc not having to worry about the basics and focusing on all that was new. I'm finding that the more time I spend in the drivers seat, the larger my peripheral vision becomes of all the things happening in the flight deck at particular times. Could a 1000-2000 hour king air guy do it? Of course! Been done over and over again. Is it a safer bet with someone that has more experience in general? I think so. Just my opinion. As for Jazz, there were a bunch of RJ'ers on my ground school and they'd seen most of this stuff before. So yes, I think that they found everything a little easier than I did.

Anyway, time for bed

[Yossarian]

good post cloud.....I found that is was like learning how to fly all over again as well.

[ALT SEL]

sooo........ Has anybody been called yet?

[wrc]

Furthermore, I find the autopilot very abrupt for the most part and am now striving to discover and use modes that create the smoothest transitions for our guests.

Boeing has designed the auto-flight system to respond within certain acceptable perimeters. The use of other modes deviates from Boeing's design philosophy of overall flight monitoring to enhance situational awareness. Like avoiding storms, airplanes, mountains etc...
Proceed with caution

[DaveP]

sooo........ Has anybody been called yet?

We are continuing to call people. What is unclear, are the delays encountered by the Boeing strike. The longer the strike continues, the further away a new hire course will be. Granted there is a new Part-time pilot option that ws just announced which may impact hiring to some degree as well. It is too early to know anything on that front yet. Nice option for some of the people here.

Interviews will now slow through November and we are planning one or two interview dates for December. Candidates have been selected already for those dates.

When I have a clearer picture I will post some news.

Fly Safe!

Dave.

[ALT SEL]

Thanks Davep!

[Smitty]

DaveP.

Good on ya for taking the time to post this info. The way you have handled the hiring department has been second to none.

Keep up the good work.

[Rotten Apple #1]

What WRC said.


A lot of us go through that exploratory stage. I did, in spades.

Now with the benefit of some time, and the realization of what the flight standards guys want, and what the passengers expect, I don't experiment too much anymore.

Follow the SOP's, don't be a cowboy, don't try to singlehandedly save the company a bunch of money. And don't be a pain in the ass to your colleague by doing weird shit. And stay the 'f' out of CWS, what a distraction...

Moving on when another WJ Captain and I were at Royal Aviation doing our initial training on the A310, there were four of us on course. Steve and I were from Air Atlantic, with similar backgrounds to your typical Jazz guy, though Steve had been a skipper on the J41 (that speed machine).

Anyway the other two guys washed out within a week of each other once we got to the sim in Miami. One guy had a corporate background and the other fella was a nice guy who flew waterbombers.

Plain and simple, the Jazz guy has the SOPs and the problem solving methodology going for him/her. Good candidates for WJ to hire, train, and send to the line.