the new agreement

[Four1oh]

Ok then why even split the pay scales at all? All pilots are on the same pay scale, regardless of what seat they sit in

[xkbal]

Opinion time:

We NEED to allow us (the FO's ) to slide over with years of service. Why? Because after 6 years at least (for some), it needs to be an incentive to take on the extra responsibility. Once the new scales for FO's get sorted out, why would a 6,7,or 8 year FO want to come over to the left seat for not much more money?

Because the pay will top out as an FO and if you want to earn more you will have to slide over, may not be much more the first year but will continue to increase.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, one way or the other. I see the desire for the years of service, that being said I don't think we are quite to the point that some of the other airlines were when they instituted YOS pay. Seem to recall some Air BC folks being right seat in excess of 15 years (could be wrong about exact number).

Next opinion will probably get me in trouble but here goes. I think a capt that has 5 years experience in the left seat is of more value to the company than an FO with 5 years who just upgraded. I know, I know, there are exceptions to every rule but this is in general.

[Four1oh]

Next opinion will probably get me in trouble but here goes. I think a capt that has 5 years experience in the left seat is of more value to the company than an FO with 5 years who just upgraded. I know, I know, there are exceptions to every rule but this is in general.

Except that you're absolutely right.

[Donald]

Wouldn't the 5 year captain have 7-8 years of service, compared to your 5 year FO who is upgrading to potentially 5th year captain pay?

It's good to see that the senior guys in EVERY company look out for themselves only (see "Life of a new hire" AC thread).

[Ryan Coke2]

[quote="Tim Tam"]Opinion time:

We NEED to allow us (the FO's ) to slide over with years of service. Why? Because after 6 years at least (for some), it needs to be an incentive to take on the extra responsibility. Once the new scales for FO's get sorted out, why would a 6,7,or 8 year FO want to come over to the left seat for not much more money?

Remember folks, the more you make the more tax they take![/quote]


If that is the best argument you can come up with, we'll never get it.

1 for 2 would be a good tradeoff. 1 for 1 would be nice, but it is somewhat generous. Having said that, it is a very common industry practice.

[yycflyguy]

Could you guys please get 15-20%, across the board, pay raise with more time off, better work conditions, better reserve (you guys have that?) and better benefits so when we go to negotiations in 09 we have something to point to?

Seriously, do not except the status quo as it degrades the entire Canadian airline industry. You guys are the trend setters and coming from the dark side.... we need your help. Glad everyone is still happier than a pig in kaka but if you don't continue to raise the bar it will go in the other direction. Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'.

Suerte amigos.

[commuter]

We will do our best but we have no reserve!!

[Tim Tam]

[quote="Ryan Coke2

If that is the best argument you can come up with, we'll never get it.

1 for 2 would be a good tradeoff. 1 for 1 would be nice, but it is somewhat generous. Having said that, it is a very common industry practice.[/quote]

WTF?? Why would you sell yourself short?

Years of service. End of story. You want to sit in the right seat for up to 8 years (which could likely happen) and then slide over to year 4? No chance. 8 years with a company is worth a lot more than that..

[quote="xkbal

Next opinion will probably get me in trouble but here goes. I think a capt that has 5 years experience in the left seat is of more value to the company than an FO with 5 years who just upgraded. I know, I know, there are exceptions to every rule but this is in general.[/quote]

Oh Mamma Mia, you need to really think this one over again.

You are trying to tell me that a 5 year Captain is MORE valuable than a first year Captain???

IT IS THE SAME DAMN JOB.

You really need to understand that not everyone who came here, came from jazz, or CMA, or Georgian, or (insert Turboprop here) company. Guess what? Some guys came here as ex-jet captains from previous lives. You think that they are still valued less than a King Air pilot that cuts there teeth as a jet Captain for the first time? You are unbelievable if you think that way. You are part of the reason why Tier 2 and Tier 3 companies pay what they do - because the Big Wigs think you are not worth more.

You do two flights from A to B. Same two Captains. Same responsibilities. Same result. Why is one worth more than the other?

Awaiting your response..

[DaveP]

hey Tim, sent you a pm a few weeks ago, drop me a note.

[xkbal]

Oh Mamma Mia, you need to really think this one over again.

You are trying to tell me that a 5 year Captain is MORE valuable than a first year Captain???

IT IS THE SAME DAMN JOB.

You really need to understand that not everyone who came here, came from jazz, or CMA, or Georgian, or (insert Turboprop here) company. Guess what? Some guys came here as ex-jet captains from previous lives. You think that they are still valued less than a King Air pilot that cuts there teeth as a jet Captain for the first time? You are unbelievable if you think that way. You are part of the reason why Tier 2 and Tier 3 companies pay what they do - because the Big Wigs think you are not worth more.

You do two flights from A to B. Same two Captains. Same responsibilities. Same result. Why is one worth more than the other?

Awaiting your response..

Shouldn't bother with this and after this reply I'm done. Knew better and shouldn't have posted the first time.

I agree, same job. However, like or or not I've seen a difference in HOW a job is done by someone with more experience. From what I've seen most people increase in their abilities with practice and experience. The same goes for the captains, who (like it or not) have to deal with more responsibilities including everything from dealing with the FA's to all the other situations that come up involving a flight. Again I know you'll say, "but Joe came from here, doesn't that count? Jane came from here, etc.". There has to be some method for determining pay and it won't be ideal for every situation.

My mistake, following your reasoning we should have 2 pay levels pay every pilot who starts at the company at the top FO pay level and as soon as they upgrade pay them all the top pay level as captain (since they are all doing the same job). There is no need for the different pay levels which is there to reflect your value to the company.

PS don't try and claim the different pay levels are to reflect the cost of living, they aren't or each level would be increasing every year so that a new FO starting today would have the first year pay adjusted for 2 years of cost of living so he could afford the same lifestyle as the FO who started the first year of the agreement. Or lack of lifestyle, I know the starting pay needs to be changed.

Also I do think that we as a rule are underpaid in this industry, however in this life you don't get what you think you're worth you get what you negotiate and someone is willing to pay you.

outta here

[neophyte]

Here is one,

FO's should get bonus for X number of starts performed (performance bonus!!!)

Just messing guys and gals, needed to lighten things up a bit.



Neo

[Ryan Coke2]

TT,

All your logic is sound providing your only concern is your narrow self interest, which is apparently all you can see. Anything related to a big picture appears lost on you.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Well, I'm a better Captain (my opinion only) at year 4 (now) than I was at year 0-1. Sad but true.

Perhaps a one for two is negotiable with the company, in respect of upgrades. And acceptable to the whole pilot group.

Not sure I see the logic behind carrying years of service, other than that being convention at some airlines.

There is no entitlement to anything from your employer, at least that's what my 8 years in the right seat at four airlines taught me.

[Tim Tam]

Gals and guys,

Perhaps I was a little harsh. I can accept that, but I do stand behind my reasoning.

A Captain is a Captain, regardless of time with the company, do you agree? Same responsibility. You might get a little smoother, more efficient, but you are still going from A to B safely. We don't send 'senior' guys when it is dark and dirty, just whomever is scheduled correct?

When we get widebodies, this stuff will come into play or we will have some of the problems that other airlines have with payscales on different types.

Perhaps my YOS argument shall stay with past employers, some things are hard to forget sometimes..

[yycflyguy]

Gals and guys,

When we get widebodies, this stuff will come into play or we will have some of the problems that other airlines have with payscales on different types.

So what is the latest rumour on widebodies painted teal? Still talk of the 787? Pretty sure Boeing has firm orders til at least 2012.

[WJ700]

Boeing has lots of airlines interested in not taking all of their orders. I don't think WestJet wants them but they have been offered, including the first three off the line that are said to be overbuilt and overweight. However, I'm sure Boeing wants their own 787 most of all.

[yycflyguy]

That would be airlines holding options on the 787. Can you tell me who is not interested in taking delivery? I don't recall hearing anyone not interested in their deliveries. Even if a deal was struck between WS and Boeing wouldn't you go to the bottom of the list of airlines wanting the plane? Pretty sure that if airline "A" opts out of deliveries those hulls would be offered to the next airline "B" on the waiting list... aside from any backroom deals. But what do I know.

[WJ700]

How many good credit risks are there to choose from in the Airline Industry? The last meeting I was at said that there had been many offers from ILFC, GE, Boeing to give us 787's, and lots of dates to choose from. I'm not privvy to who wanted out, only Boeing is. They had even consdiered it from the lease rates coming down. However, its not on the radar for now as what we have is working. If I were to guess, after successful code sharing was evident, WestJet may take that leap. For now, I think there is enough on their table to avoid the jump in to a wide body market, separate training department, separate parts inventory, separate everything. It's an awesome airplane but I'm quite happy to not fly it if it doesn't work in WestJet's world. A stable company offers a stable future... that's the hand I'll play.

[rightseatwonder]

I'd like to see the 787 flight line tested for a few years before we would get interested... brand new airframe, composite parts, etc etc....... let someone else figure out all the bugs.

[express]

If we do anything that is going to have any impact over the next year or more, I hope it includes a 0% stock option - even though I'd jump all over a $10 strike price!!!

YES. The stock options are crap.
1. 0%
2. 2-3%/year increase
3. years of service
4. more straight forward ovetime trigger's

[Red1]

Years of service will never happen, the cost to the company would be tremendous, especially if it retro-active. Plus I think there is little incentive from most of the pilots to actually try and negotiate this.

Instead I think we should look as extending the FO pay scale, as well as the captain scale. More importantly I would like to see the block reduced to 75 hr flexing to 80hr, with overtime over 80hrs. This in my mind will give us more days off, a less fatiguing schedule, and allow more people to throw there name in for a little overtime avoiding the dreaded reserve question.

[express]

Years of service will never happen, the cost to the company would be tremendous, especially if it retro-active. Plus I think there is little incentive from most of the pilots to actually try and negotiate this.

Instead I think we should look as extending the FO pay scale, as well as the captain scale. More importantly I would like to see the block reduced to 75 hr flexing to 80hr, with overtime over 80hrs. This in my mind will give us more days off, a less fatiguing schedule, and allow more people to throw there name in for a little overtime avoiding the dreaded reserve question.

Well then, I know what my vote will be. Good luck with the 75 hr thing.

[.80@410]

Suggestions:

1) 0 % stock options.
2) Dead head credit.
3) 2:1 min, years of service F/O to Captain
4) Yearly Cost of living adjustments for life of the contract( 3%?)
5) Extend the F/O and Captain pay scales
6) Guaranteed 15th day off in 31 day months instead of the " if we can" scenerio
7) Extra week of vacation after ...x number of years.
8 ) Rescinding / abolishing the " Westjet may terminate W/O just cause even after probabtion" clause in the hiring contracts signed by new hires in the last 12 months+.

All I can think of for now.

[commuter]

Exactly how can they fire you after probation without just cause??

[Flightlevels]

you can get rid of anyone if you write a big enough check.