Ornge Pilot Pay vs. Medics Pay

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Until such time as pilots realize what they are worth it won't change.

Pilots are vehicle drivers like bus or truck drivers, the only real difference when it comes to pay is you will be hard presses to find a bus driver or truck driver who will pay for a job then work for less than a ditch digger.

[Driving Rain]

I remember when the medics were all employed directly by the Ministry of Health. The Ontario Gumitup decided to privatize them. According to the privatization rules in place then (and now)if you took the same job in the private sector you would not be intitled to your severance pay. The severance pay is based on years of service. Some medics had over 15 years in and were due 2 weeks pay for every year of sevice up to a max of 26 weeks. Comes layoff time and every medic in the province took the severance pay option meaning they couldn't work at a simular job in the private sector for one year. Guess what? The Gumitup of the day backed off on the layoffs for one full year. The private companies that were to take over the operations were understandably alarmed and pissed off. Where would the medics come from? In the end the gumitup did pay out the medics and the very next day the medics went to the same job site and plugged in the same coffee machine and gazed out the windows overlooking the same parking lots at their brand new cars and trucks all paid for.

[Soixante-Neuf]

.

[Elman]

How does the MNO Medevac contract work? Who works for who? For all I don't know right now, Doc seems about spot on. We see how this seems to be a bit of some 'downturn economics' on the flyers side (I'm so sick of the US election). There's just more of us than there are paramedics...we'll do it for less on the grand scale, it's how it works. It's not right in our minds, but that's the way the market works. If you have a good plan to change it, I think we're all ears.

[Driving Rain]

How does the MNO Medevac contract work? Who works for who? For all I don't know right now, Doc seems about spot on. We see how this seems to be a bit of some 'downturn economics' on the flyers side (I'm so sick of the US election). There's just more of us than there are paramedics...we'll do it for less on the grand scale, it's how it works. It's not right in our minds, but that's the way the market works. If you have a good plan to change it, I think we're all ears.

Medics work for the contractor in this case Ornge. They used to be employed directly by the Ministry of Health Ontario and were members of OPSEU. When they were privatized they formed their own association or joined another union I'm not sure which.

After watching and learning from the medics who had privatization forced on them many civil servants in Ontario no longer fear privatization most would welcome it. In the past when ever the gumitup wanted to stir the pot and fear monger at contract time $$$ they'd trot out the privatization mantra. It no longer works in part because we saw how it went with the medics. Bring it on I say , I could use a new truck.
In the long run the gumitup never saved a penny with this privatization. What they did do was limit some of the liability by passing it on to the contractor.

[Rudy]

Does anyone know if the medic's union/association limits the amount of new medics coming out of school every year? Perhaps that is something we should look at if a market flooded with pilots is the real root of our problems.

[silent_pete]

Doc I have to disagree with you. You are talking from a pretty safe position. It sounds like you already have a pretty nice job, with decent pay, and you enjoy your work and your employer. But say that theres a guy out there with a family he has to support and this medevac job comes up. You calling the guy stupid for taking it!? Maybe to him that wage is fairly decent. All im saying is that to some it would seem silly to work for that amount of money, and to others, from the mom and pop operation they were working before, that medevac job might look pretty sweet. Yes I agree, pilots don't get paid the greatest wages for the jobs we do. Yes there is a ton of room for improvement. But go and ask the ER doc who just saved a little boys life if he likes the idea that some sports player makes more than he does. The public is willing to pay the Paramedic more than what they are willing to pay for the flight and the crew that gets them there. Wages should go up, but calling guys stupid for taking those 'low paying job' os a low blow in my opinion.

[bandaid]

Those are some very high paid paramedics. I have been a paramedic for 28+ years full time and I can tell you with certainty that I do not make those kind of wages. I doubt that the average pilot with as many years as I have in makes as little as I do. I chose to stay PCP throughout my career for a couple of reasons
-they don't make it financially worth my while to have spent 2-3 years away from my family doing nothing but studying and working,
-I would be working the night shifts for the rest of my career.
-as a flight medic you again spend a lot of time away from your family and I didn't want that.

We all have the best job in the world according to the guy that is doing another job. I am looking forward to the day when I don't have to go to work and be exposed constantly to others peoples misfortunes, all the money in the world can't make my job any easier. For those of you that have commented on our wages and the insensitive twit who decided to post names and wages ( and yes I know you can get this information through the freedom of information act), it is what it is. Yes, in most cases we have Unions that fight for wages for us (ours has come back with a bunch of 0's the last bargaining and it is setting up to be the same this round) but I'm not too sure what you want to accomplish here? Is it that you want to make more than the paramedic so that you're more respected? Money don't buy respect. Actions like these tend to get you less respect but of course it is all done under the curtain of anonymity on here

[sprucemonkey]

Medics work for the contractor in this case Ornge. They used to be employed directly by the Ministry of Health Ontario and were members of OPSEU. When they were privatized they formed their own association or joined another union I'm not sure which.

They joined CAW and their contract is very sweet! If the pilots became a part of that union with the same contract, it sure would be worth a look.

[BigWillyStyle]

Doc says:

"And it's YOUR fault. Don't dump on the paramedics for knowing a good thing when they see it......dump on yourselves for being STUPID!!"

Truer words were never spoken. Having done both jobs, I can say that pilots, for the honor of flying, will sell themselves to the lowest bidder. If you really love flying, and you are making less than the guys at Tim Hortons, either quit, or suck it up and enjoy your job. No one held a gun to your head and forced you into the cockpit. No one forced me to get out of bed at 5 in the morning, go down to the dock, and drink coffee and shoot the breeze with the Yanks while the fog lifted. I did it because I loved it. Still do, even though I've moved on to other pursuits. Market forces decide the wages, and pilot/whores drive half the market equation. Customers and companies drive the other half. As it sits right now, the government, as the arbiter of health care regulation, controls the paramedic salaries (to a substantial, but not total degree), and the voters are comfortable with their health-care providers getting paid well. If they weren't, we would already have private health care. Voters see pilots as (mostly) skilled equipment operators, (which we are, don't kid yourselves), who love their jobs, and would do it for free.

This topic surfaces regularly on AvCanada, and every time it's the same old whinings. Tip to the whiners: Stop paying training bonds, grow a couple, and have some pride in your trade.

Another thing:

On stable patient transfers, the medic isn't being paid for what he/she DOES, it's for what he/she KNOWS. Like what to do if the patient rapidly worsens. Similarly, if one is doing night freight over the prairies, on autopilot, on a clear smooth moonlit night, is one being paid for what one is DOING (like the newspaper or the logbook), or what one KNOWS how to do, such as fly the thing safely to destination if one fan shits itself, and vis at destination goes down to a half in fog?

Think about it.

BWS

[Lost Lake]

Advanced care paramedics flying for contractors in Ontario $700/day. He usually only works one leg. (Sleeps on the other) Can he even start the plane - no! If the person he cares for dies..too bad, fill out some paper, blame the hospital

Co-pilot flying him, $70 a day. He has first aid and CPR. Could he save a life..possibly. He works both legs. Person(s) he cares for dies..oh..oh!

[Driving Rain]

For those of you that have commented on our wages and the insensitive twit who decided to post names and wages ( and yes I know you can get this information through the freedom of information act), it is what it is.

Not the Freedom of information act. In Ontario anyone who is employed by the Provincal GUMITUP directly or indirectly and whose earnngs are greater than 100K by law gets their salary publicly published. Under the 1996 Salary Diclosure Act.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... p01a_e.htm

Each employer shall make available for inspection by the public without charge a written record of the amount of salary and benefits paid in each year by the employer to or in respect of an employee to whom the employer paid at least $100,000 as salary. Subsection (2) applies with respect to the record. It must be made available on or before the later of March 31, 2004 and the day that is one month after the date on which the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Amendment Act, 2004 receives Royal Assent.

Just another form of Civil Servant harassment if you ask me. They don't differentiate between management or bargaining unit.

[BigWillyStyle]

Lost Lake, that is crap. Absolute crap. Maybe the medic can't start the plane. But the pilot can't intubate a patient or administer drugs. It's different specialties. And you're pissed that the medical specialty pays more than the aviation specialty? Grow up.

And if you think that the response of a medic when they lose a patient is "oh well, too bad so sad, blame the hospital", then you are dead wrong. Not only wrong, but insensitive, cold-blooded, and simple-minded.

People like you are part of the reason pilots don't have more professional credibility. Hopefully your medic doesn't know you very well when you are the one lying on the stretcher.

BWS

[Doc]

Hey Big Willie, I may not be able to "intubate" a patient, but I sure as hell can give them drugs! Not that it matters if we can't get you to the patient in the first place. Never had a patient go "south" with me in the airplane...but I do know the medic would take it VERY hard! The pilots would (I would hope) feel more than a little crappy about it as well.
OH! You meant "incubate"......now I'm with you...did I ever tell about my emergency tracheotomy? I'm mighty handy with a Swiss Army knife! And, I ain't shitten ya!
BTW, do you still have a Dell???

[scopiton]

so doc,
What should be the correct wage for both flight crew members given the job, the aircraft, the sched and all the other black mass you'll discover when it is too late because u have allready signed the PaperPC ?

[Doc]

so doc,
What should be the correct wage for both flight crew members given the job, the aircraft, the sched and all the other black mass you'll discover when it is too late because u have allready signed the PaperPC ?

Okay, I'll take a "swing" at that. As I said, I don't think paramedics should be making over 100K. They're getting that kind of money thanks to strong unions. And public perception. They have "Joe Public" convinced they are worth that kind of coin. And, more power to them. Pilots, on the other hand, don't seem to have a hell of a lot of self worth, in way too many cases. They telegraph this simple fact to employers by willingly "buying" jobs in too many cases. Yes they do. If I'm an employer, and I can find willing fools with cheques in hand, I'd be an idiot not to take advantage of this. In determining a pilot's worth, this speaks volumes to his absolute worthlessness? If he/she doesn't think they're worth much....they ain't.
Another stumbling block to good pilot wages in the medevac business is the Provincial Department of Health (or whatever they call themselves) insisting in flying with the lowest bidder. This is a huge contributor to the shit pilot wages. If medevac operations gave the government exactly what they paid for, ie. crappy service, frankly it'd look good on them.
Another very unfortunate fact of life in aviation, is simple. Pilots actually like to fly. And, that's a problem. If we didn't like it quite as much, we'd demand, and receive better compensation. So, we're willing to fly for the kind of income we would never normally get out of bed for in some other employment situation.
Bottom line? We're basically fucked. Too many are willing to do too much for too little. That's not an insult. It's a fact.
I, personally would never fly medevacs. Been there, done that. Not worth it. A really big reason for this is I would not fly some medic making 100K in and out of some of the shit holes required, in the weather required, for the pay required. I'd utter two words. Pay Me. And no medevac operator could afford to Pay Me. But if more pilots felt the way I do, who knows? Maybe our wages would be more in line with the medics' (remember the medic?) and the cost would just HAVE to be factored into the cost of "doing business".

[BigWillyStyle]

Doc, you dirty old man! I do indeed still have A-Dele! She hasn't tossed me out yet. And I'm not even God's gift to aviation anymore!

[Tiny Voices]

Hey Doc,

Since you brought up the subject of lowest bidder, is there still a white C-441 with blue stripes based up in Red?

Cheers

[Lost Lake]

Hey Big Willy: you missed my point. I don't do medevacs (read Doc's post)
Sure they are caring people. I have seen dead patients, and it isn't fun for anyone. My point is that they are getting paid an unproportionally high pay for their skill set compared to the pilots who fly them there. Read Doc's last post. He is right on. I'm glad someone in aviation can make a good wage. Too bad it isn't us.. and it isn't us for all the reasons previously mentioned. Pilots starting out are whores. Usually young, low time, big debts, or rich parents. They just want a foot in the door at any price. The captain, on the other hand is making much more. Not airline wage, but a little better than the average joe. Oh and he wears a uniform. Maybe the captains should start demanding more wages as training wages.
Anyhow, I detract from the original thread. Doc, your right on, on this one. You just have more time on your hands to write more eloquently than me.

[bandaid]

As this is an aviation website I won't comment on areas that I have little knowledge which is national wages for medevac pilots. I do, however have a bit of knowledge of paramedic wages here in B.C. and I can tell you that if a paramedic here is making over $100,000.00 a year it is due to him/her working many hours of overtime.
There is no doubt that we rely on your skills to get us to and from our missions and I feel that your wages are discusting for what it is that you do. In most cases, if you as pilots have reservations about a flight, I can tell you that as a paramedic in the back I have mentioned more than once that this mission is not worth dieing for. People chose to live where they do and should not expect you or anyone else to risk their life to go in and get them.
Doc, you are giving the people on here a false impression of our wages, we don't amke the kind of wages that you suggest unless we have no family life and I can tell you that for the most part we are the emergency service you hear the least about unless we are connected to a fire department. We cannot speak to the press and are usually gone from the scene of any event long before the press get there, that is why you have so many pictures of fire fighter at accidents. The Internation Association of Fire Fighter have a hugh budget for public relations they are the ones that are constantly in the news, don't paint us with the brush as these guys. I would continue this rant but I have to go do a call.

[Lost Lake]

Hey Bandaid. Don't get too excited. What Doc (I hope I speak for him) and I are saying is not that there is anything wrong with your wages, it's what's wrong with ours. Both parties require special skill sets. We, as sluts (see whore thread, http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=47604 pilots are no longer whores, just sluts, whores get paid to get screwed) are prepared to accept less than we're worth.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a medevac pilot, and I am happy with my job and wages!

[bandaid]

I can see that but in saying so he is also implying that we are $100,000.00 a year employees which just isn't true. Just trying to clear the air (excuse the pun).

[SinkRate]

Wow....50 to 75 for a PC12 driver....
Must be nice!

[Doc]

I can see that but in saying so he is also implying that we are $100,000.00 a year employees which just isn't true. Just trying to clear the air (excuse the pun).

Just using the numbers quoted at the beginning of the thread. I hear ya.

[Elman]

Are paramedics legally considered an essential service? It's not hard to figure the implications there if medevac paramedics are as well.