the new agreement

[Smitty]

8 ) Rescinding / abolishing the " Westjet may terminate W/O just cause even after probabtion" clause in the hiring contracts signed by new hires in the last 12 months+.

I didn't even know this existed!!

If this is the case, it should be rectified somehow!

[Rotten Apple #1]

Flightlevels' comment seems valid.

That said, what's the cost to WJ to terminate someone without cause?

Are we 100 percent sure that's in the employment contract?

Sure would make it less costly to get rid of a pilot if you suspected malfeasance but had not court acceptable proof. Hmmm, wonder such an idea would come. from?

[sideslip]

I can't believe a company with such high morale would do that to the employees. Or any company for that matter. I don't think anyone should be let go without cause.

[Flightlevels]

I have never seen it done without a cause it it matters. Nor has it been done in the few years before I showed up when westjet started.

[joe to go]

Does WestJet lease airplanes from Singapore Air Leasing? And are they a delivery customer for the 787? If so, could WJ possibly have 787's in teal and blue, before any get painted toothpaste blue??

I don't know the facts for sure, just asking, before i get jumped on

[twinpratts]

Crew chat in Jan of this year said we were approached by Boeing, but said it wasn't where they wanted to go... so it's not for lack of opportunity.

[express]

I don't know why the 787 comes up in every topic. There's no money in long haul right now. It would be a big mistake at this time. I think they'll reassess the economics of it all in a few years. Don't hold your breath.

[KAG]

I'd rather fly a 37 for my Career, rather then bet the house and lose it all.
Given whats going on out there, lets stick to what we know and not try to take over the world.

Slow and steady will win this race.

[fundi]

I've always wondered why one airline hangs some of its dirty laundry out, for all to see, on a public forum. I guess there are certain topics which everyone can expand and disect....but here they are openly discussing actual contract ideas...or are they.


Don't you all have some internal forums or association intranet to discuss this stuff without the rest of the world quarterbacking for ya.

But go for guns in the contract....we will all be better for it!!

- a fundi - or not

[Rotten Apple #1]

Flightlevels,

there is a difference in employment law between the legal statement of "for cause" and your statement of "without a cause".

I personally don't think that there is a "dismissal without cause" clause in the current new hire contract, but that's only because I've never seen the contract.

I guess the only thing that really matters is that it's not in my employment contract.

From Gilchrist v. Western Star Trucks Inc., 1998 CanLII 5874 (BC S.C.)
(BC Supreme Court)


[9] The law is clear that to dismiss an employee for cause, the employer must satisfy the onus of establishing that the employee has been guilty of serious misconduct, habitual neglect of duty or incompetence which would constitute a breach of the employee's fundamental obligation to the employer: MacDonald v. Richardson Greenshields of Canada Ltd. reflex, (1985), 69 B.C.L.R. 58 at 71 (S.C.).

[10] The plaintiff relies on Babcock v. C.& R. Weickert Enterprises Ltd. 1993 CanLII 3112 (NS C.A.), (1993), 50 C.C.E.L. 1 (N.S.C.A.) for the proposition that to justify dismissal for cause without appropriate warning, the employee's incompetence must be gross. Otherwise, an employer must show: (1) that it established reasonable objective standards of performance; (2) that the employee failed to meet those standards; (3) that the employee had warning that he failed to meet those standards and that his position would be in jeopardy if he continued to do so; and (4) that reasonable time was afforded to correct the situation. In this case, the plaintiff asserts that a written warning by Western Star threatening his dismissal in October 1996 was issued in error and withdrawn so as not to form part of his employment record. However, the defendants rely on numerous verbal warnings which they say comply with the above criteria.


The meaty part is probably "the employer must satisfy the onus of establishing..." etc.

[CanadaEH]

Code: Select all

you can get rid of anyone if you write a big enough check.

You can also get sued a very large amount if you dismiss someone "without cause".

[Four1oh]

I've always wondered why one airline hangs some of its dirty laundry out, for all to see, on a public forum.

You call this dirty laundry?! Compared to some stuff on this board, this is barely soiled laundry! You know, the wear-next-day kind of laundry.

[yycflyguy]

There's no money in long haul right now. It would be a big mistake at this time. I think they'll reassess the economics of it all in a few years. Don't hold your breath.

WTF? No money in long haul? Quarter after quarter who are the most succesful airlines worldwide? Cathay, Singapore Airlines, ANZ, BA, Jetairways, Emirates, Quantas... yup, no long haul there.

[express]

There's no money in long haul right now. It would be a big mistake at this time. I think they'll reassess the economics of it all in a few years. Don't hold your breath.

WTF? No money in long haul? Quarter after quarter who are the most succesful airlines worldwide? Cathay, Singapore Airlines, ANZ, BA, Jetairways, Emirates, Quantas... yup, no long haul there.

Hey yycflyguy...none of those are north american based. But nice try.

[yycflyguy]

Ohhh, I didn't see where in your post you made reference to North American carriers.

CONTINENTAL MAY 2008 2007 Change REVENUE PASSENGER MILES (000)
Domestic 3,792,761 3,949,056 -4.0 Percent
International 3,567,213 3,334,158 7.0 Percent
AVAILABLE SEAT MILES (000)
Domestic 4,495,504 4,678,730 -3.9 Percent
International 4,553,042 4,233,886 7.5 Percent

Too lazy to look up other carriers domestic v international numbers but I am pretty sure Continental is a NA based carrier.

[complexintentions]

Closer to home, I'm willing to bet AC makes whatever money they do in longhaul...

[sarg]

There's no money in long haul right now. It would be a big mistake at this time. I think they'll reassess the economics of it all in a few years. Don't hold your breath.

WTF? No money in long haul? Quarter after quarter who are the most succesful airlines worldwide? Cathay, Singapore Airlines, ANZ, BA, Jetairways, Emirates, Quantas... yup, no long haul there.

Didn't most of those companies just report 3rd quarter losses?

[CanadaEH]

Closer to home, I'm willing to bet AC makes whatever money they do in longhaul...

I believe AC's domestic operation is more profitable than its international operation, if discussion about its past quarterly results is any indication.

[Four1oh]

Closer to home, I'm willing to bet AC makes whatever money they do in longhaul...

I believe AC's domestic operation is more profitable than its international operation, if discussion about its past quarterly results is any indication.

Do you mean all international, or just US ops? I suspect the US operations might be a different kettle of fish than other international destinations.

[CanadaEH]

I can't say with any certainty. I know that AC's results have been discussed over the past few quarters on other forums and it was speculated that AC's domestic operation was far more profitable than its international operation. Westjet and AC have a duopoly domestically that I think is financially stable while remaining competitive. I'm not going to suggest the whole international operation is weak because that can't be the case. I'm going to assume that with all the recent cutbacks to Asia that there's weakness in the Pacific market and with all the competition to Europe I'll assume there's oversaturation on some routes. The bankruptcies of Zoom, Oasis, etc. will help AC, no doubt, but I think traffic is going to continue to be soft until the economy picks up again. I also believe that the US market is weak, moreso for AC as they fly to a lot more business-oriented destinations. What remains to be seen is how the Carribean does for Canadian airlines this winter as the economy slows and capacity/competition increases significantly.

[Four1oh]

wasn't it the asian routes that kept Canadi>n alive for so long? I thought that was the best part of the merger for AC... getting those routes.

[express]

Ohhh, I didn't see where in your post you made reference to North American carriers.

CONTINENTAL MAY 2008 2007 Change REVENUE PASSENGER MILES (000)
Domestic 3,792,761 3,949,056 -4.0 Percent
International 3,567,213 3,334,158 7.0 Percent
AVAILABLE SEAT MILES (000)
Domestic 4,495,504 4,678,730 -3.9 Percent
International 4,553,042 4,233,886 7.5 Percent

Too lazy to look up other carriers domestic v international numbers but I am pretty sure Continental is a NA based carrier.

[yycflyguy]

Ohhh, I didn't see where in your post you made reference to North American carriers.

CONTINENTAL MAY 2008 2007 Change REVENUE PASSENGER MILES (000)
Domestic 3,792,761 3,949,056 -4.0 Percent
International 3,567,213 3,334,158 7.0 Percent
AVAILABLE SEAT MILES (000)
Domestic 4,495,504 4,678,730 -3.9 Percent
International 4,553,042 4,233,886 7.5 Percent

Too lazy to look up other carriers domestic v international numbers but I am pretty sure Continental is a NA based carrier.

Air Canada just released their numbers... you can see that long haul provides around 22,000 RPM's while domestically it is only 11,000, and that doesn't even include Transborder traffic.... yup, no money in long haul.


October 2008 2007 Change YTD 2008 2007 Change
Canada
RPMs 1,039 1,070 -2.9% 11,331 11,194 +1.2%
ASMs 1,275 1,335 -4.5% 13,938 13,701 +1.7%

Atlantic
RPMs 1,007 1,010 -0.3% 10,908 10,859 +0.5%
ASMs 1,220 1,294 -5.7% 12,753 12,959 -1.6%

Pacific
RPMs 725 743 -2.4% 7,476 7,470 +0.1%
ASMs 860 914 -5.9% 8,890 8,971 -0.9%

Latin America
RPMs 311 296 +5.1% 4,521 3,756 +20.4%
ASMs 432 385 +12.2% 5,614 4,757 +18.0%

[daveg]

Then how the F#@k do you guys loose sooooo much money time after time after time.
Guess its your awesome paint jobs.

[daveg]

Here is a very nice PM I received from Mr Soprano.

Hey Dave, how are those Regina layovers? Must really suck to think that the rest of your career will be nothing more than that on a fuckin' 737. Is that why you hate AC so much? Or perhaps you were bounced out of the AC interview process. Or perhaps you're just a fuckin' idiot giving the finer cowboys a bad name. Your hate for my employer just makes me laugh. So much for the WJ easy going attitude. You're a fuckin' washout you duchebag.


I thought it was funny.