Sonic Blue report out.

[Ralliart]

Hedley,

True, it's all corn below me.

I haven't seen a mountain, or body of water larger than a pond in over 6 months

[Chop&Drop]

We've been through this a million times before. But can someone please give me an example of a PC-12 engine failure. Not an engine shut down in flight but an acutal failure. Anyone?? Buler????

People need to stop lumping the -12 in with the 208. They aren't even close to similar machines (other than they have 1 engine). I'm not saying I don't want TAWS, it's a great thing. While we're at it can we have TCAS too? All great tools, but having flown the PC-12 I have no problem what so ever in IMC with it.

[iflyforpie]

Here's one.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8a0067.asp

['effin hippie]

Yah the TAWS in a 208B will last as long as the battery, should be no prob in a 208B. Doesn't the PC12 have a little windmill?

Widow. The GPS being discussed is one with a terrain database and display sufficiently detailed to allow a pilot to conduct an IFR forced decent while avoiding terrain and hopefully locating an area that will yield a safe landing site upon breaking out of cloud. A VFR pilot, over the top excepted, already has that protection when they look out the window.
Increased equipment and training requirements for SE IFR sound good to me, who wouldn't want it?

I fly a 208B IFR over real mountains most days of the week. Would I rather be in a 200? Hell yes. PA-31? Not so much. And face it, lots of the terrain in this country, being VFR when you lose the stove isn't going to help much.
What do the numbers say? They say that SE IFR engine failures are a negligable contributor to the accident rate.
Going by the actual data, and the $$/mile on 208s and PC12s SE IFR ain't going anywhere, unless the rate really jumps.

Last point. How long until synthetic vision is so good and so cheap the we do everything "VFR" with 2 sets of goggles, a VFR GPS, 2 Comms and Mode C or S? It's comin'.

ef

/edit/ C&D Yah the PC12 has different capabilities than the 208B, but operators always use their machines to the max. Both machines come down to a PT6 and both get used in places where its failure would be pretty scary. Just ask those Keewatin guys going Rankin->Sanikiluak or the Mounties on their way to Pond Inlet, Old Crow or .......

[iflyforpie]

STARS is doing it already. Would be nice.

[Widow]

Widow. The GPS being discussed is one with a terrain database and display sufficiently detailed to allow a pilot to conduct an IFR forced decent while avoiding terrain and hopefully locating an area that will yield a safe landing site upon breaking out of cloud. A VFR pilot, over the top excepted, already has that protection when they look out the window.

Thanks for the clarification, however, considering just how often VFR ends up in IMC, and what the results of that can be (see http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... eature.htm, VFR into IMC chart), I would hesitate to preclude VFR flights from a mandated GPS of the type described. Perhaps I require further explanation.

With respect to the SonicBlue crash, I am convinced that Transport Canada knew that they were not operating within the margins of safety, and if this accident had not shut them down, they would have been shut down eventually by an accident for which they were at fault. I think it unfortunate that the case did not get to trial (or public inquiry), as I believe it likely there is evidence to the effect that Transport Canada knew the operation to be unsafe.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

widow, don't forget that Dave and his cronies rescinded the approval of Sonic Blues ops man in a knee jerk reaction to shut them down. Which I find to be absolutely incredible seeing as TC approved him in the first place....but then again it's the Pacific Region of TCCA a collection of incompetent managers at best.

When is that case going to go through the courts....or is it even going to?

[Widow]

It isn't .. As I understand it, all but the pilot's family settled willingly. I don't know how much, or from whom (although I do know that TC was one of the defendants) but I believe a settlement was reached late last month.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

widow, I understood that Sonic Blues ops. man. was suing TCCA for wrongful removal from his position?

Are you saying that TCCA paid off the ops. man. for wrongful removal?

[Widow]

Sorry ., I thought you were referring to the wrongful death suit. I do not know the outcome of the Ops Mgr's suit.

[Doc]

Is this not a forced landing that went south, brought on by a failure with a turbine blade? Or is there skulduggery about? If it was cause by a failure, and not bad maintenance, he probably has a pretty good case. Was the pulling of the OC a knee jerk reaction by TC? Before the facts were in? Bad maintenance or not, that's what it sounds like to me?

[Doc]

however, considering just how often VFR ends up in IMC,(Widow)

I fear with a requirement for terrain reading/mapping GPS equipment, this scenario will become even more common. And it IS the biggest killer to VFR flights.

[Widow]

^ ^ That I can understand, Doc ... considering the proclivity pilots have to "god-syndrome"

[Doc]

^ ^ That I can understand, Doc ... considering the proclivity pilots have to "god-syndrome"

I'm sorry. I missed something here. ???

Really...."god syndrome"? I'm a chicken. I know . is a cowardly kitty as well.....

[Widow]

lol, should have said SOME pilots

Clearly, there are many who prefer to take the safe route!

You know what I meant

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Doc, I'm a a real coward when it comes to gambling my life in an airplane taking risks that are not necessary.

I am very happy being a live chicken rather than a dead duck.

Terrain mapping GPS is a great aid.....but would it just add another reason for pilots to gamble?

[Doc]

That's my thought on the subject.

[ScudRunner]

Its absolutely astonishing that a company that was perceived for having maintenance issues and other issues is the company to have an engine failure in a C208.

Lets see here list of C208 operators in Canada:
Alkan
North Wright
Villers
ASW
NT Air
Missinipi
Calm Air
Wasaya
Alta Flights
Morning Star
Airborne
Sanders
Fugro
Big River Air
Nakina
Jackson Air
Thunder Air
Tindi
PE Air
RCMP
ConAir
SeaAir
Labrador Air

Correct me if I am wrong but did any of these other operators have engines cave on them?? Anyone Anyone Buhler Buhler.......

But somehow it's good old Sonic Blue/Regency that throws snake eyes at the table and has there engine crap out, absolutely amazing that all these other operators have just had a horseshoe up there ass the entire time but poor old RXX Air gets the lemon engine that decides to pack it in. Hey but if Ed had a brand spanken new GPS with all the bells and whistles we would be having a beer right now talking shop.

Anyone else getting a little pissed off at this Single Engine Vs Multi Engine crap. Lets focus here, I have flown thousands of hours around in SE Piston and never had them crap out on me and most of that time I was down in dirty fairly close to the ground, flown a PC-12 around area's if the shit hits the fan I would probably be going all "alive" on my pax waiting to be rescued.
I don't mean to go off on a rant here but I have logged thousands in Multi Pistons and Turbines and Jets for reputable operators who get there engines rebuilt from all the same people that your company did or still does and yet in all that time, with everyone I know in aviation and have flown with or talked to the only operator I know of to have an engine crap out on them is Sonic Blue, I'm not talking precautionary shut down in a King Air and continued or had a fire and immediately diverted to somewhere right quick or the PC-12 that continued flying around with no oil over Newfoundland with plenty of options, I'm talking about bang boom gone sputter put " it died Ace oh shit".

Oh I'm Sure Cats got some story about this one time at band camp flying around some old radial over the north atlantic when Captain Ahab shot him with a harpoon type story but WTF am I suppose to believe that company's like I listed above have a monk bless there aircraft before each flight and that's what keeps them safe? So why is it that a company can operate right under the noses of the people that are suppose to keep the sky's safe for the workers and traveling public have this stroke of bad luck in a modern Aircraft operating Pavement to pavement and home every night with the people at maintenance to address any concern snag or loose screw when the crew puts here to bed. Really do you think it might not have anything to with having the wiz bang GPS over the rocks or on the praires or Arctic, or could it possibly be that something else was going on at this company? That's Just my opinion I could be wrong

[Chuck Ellsworth]

My personal opinion is a lot of these accidents happen because of lax oversight on the part of TCCA.

Then they knee jerk and do something transparent like get rid of an ops. man. to quickly shut down an operation they allowed to stay in business until someone got killed like happened in the Sonic Blue case.

I base my opinion on my knowing the top management in this region and nothing they would do surprises me.

This should be a disgrace to the whole industry, but in Canada it just gets swept under the carpet and these TC people just keep collecting their pay and bonuses.......disgusting truly disgusting.

[Doc]

[quote="."]Its absolutely astonishing that a company that was perceived for having maintenance issues and other issues is the company to have an engine failure in a C208. ...

But somehow it's good old Sonic Blue/Regency that throws snake eyes at the table and has there engine crap out,

I know you don't want to think so....but....it just MAY be that simple.

[HuD 91gt]

Apparently the 208 in the Sonic Blue crash was a previous Skyward 'van. It hadn't been in SonicBlues possesion very long(~1 month).

[iflyforpie]

I agree that it was knee jerk for pulling the OC. But these guy's did have a reputation for bad maintenance and flying under the radar.

Before I get debunked again I personally worked on three of their Islanders, two Navajos, and a Chieftain after their accident and bankruptcy. Some aircraft had unapproved repairs and modification, most had outstanding airwothiness snags, and all were in very rough shape.

But I still don't see how even the worst maintenance could have introduced a flaw in a turbine blade.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

iflyforpie, few if any here doubt what you found when working on their airplanes.

Few if any believe the blade failure can be directly connected with poor maintenance on the part of Sonic Blue.

But many here do believe that Sonic Blue operated in a manner that was not in compliance with their operating certificate and the associated manuals and rules.

Many here believe that for TCCA not to have been aware that Sonic Blue was operating in a questionable manner stretches credulity to say the least..

Therefore would it not be reasonable to believe that had TCCA been pro active in their over sight of that company they may have been shut down before there was a loss of life?

[iflyforpie]

Therefore would it not be reasonable to believe that had TCCA been pro active in their over sight of that company they may have been shut down before there was a loss of life?

You bet. TC came into our shop and looked at a particularily bad Islander I was working on and it seemed like they knew more than I did as to what was wrong with it and what we had to fix before we could get a C of A. Also shoddy maintenance was partially responsible for bringing down C-GRIL, a Cessna 172 they (Regency) owned out of Boundary Bay that was our lawn ornament in Chilliwack for several years.

Too bad for the pilot and little boy they couldn't have done something more.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Too bad for the pilot and little boy they couldn't have done something more.

TCCA is the governing body who's mandate is to ensure compliance with Federal law, their power to enforce is backed by the laws they are supposed to enforce.

So they could have.

The real question that has not been answered is why they did not.

When there is a failure to perform their duties as evident in far to many cases of which Sonic Blue is just another in a long list of failures one can only wonder why they do not.

The possibility exists that someone at the top in TCCA receives a quid pro quo that makes it worthwhile to turn a blind eye and allow these companies to continue to operate outside of the rules.

So that leaves us with several possibilities. TCCA is incompetent in their top management, TCCA is corrupt at the top, TCCA is focusing their resources in the wrong areas to name a few possibilities.

Me I believe they are corrupt from my own experience with them.