Night Rating

[bartonfly88]

I hAVE ALREADY GOT MY NIGHT RATING BUT ITS BEEN A LITTLE UNDER FIVE MONTHES SINCE MY LAST NIGHT FLIGHT. I WANT TO TAKE PASSENGERS AND I'M WONDERING IF I REQUIRE A CHECK OUT. I SEEM TO REMEMBER I HAVE TO HAVE DONE 5 TAKE OFFS AND LANDINGS IN SIX MONTHS, BUT I'M NOT SURE. WILL MY FLIGHT SCHOOL TRY AND MAKE ME DO A CHECK RIDE. i HOPE NOT. I'M CONFIDENT ENOUGH THAT I FEEL I WONT HAVE A PROBLEMS.

[AUGER9]

It's a 6 month recency. If you go longer than that without flying at night, you must do 5 t/o and landings before you can take pax's up.

Edited to note your school may have their own recency req's as well.

[bartonfly88]

So since its only been 5 monthes it wont be a problem.

[tvguru]

It won't be a problem legally, but call your school I would be willing to bet they'll want a checkout.

[Hedley]

Yup. Schools have very very tight recency requirement
regardless of your experience. They will tell you it's
because of their insurance, but that's hogwash - they
want the $$$ dual from you.

[E-Flyer]

Yup. Schools have very very tight recency requirement
regardless of your experience. They will tell you it's
because of their insurance, but that's hogwash - they
want the $$$ dual from you.

Well said !

Although my school made it seem like they care about the customer and had different recency requirements between 100 hour and 150 hours pilot. Like 50 hours of circling in the lower mainland calling them "xc's" is really going to make a difference to their competency.

[Invertago]

I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE ALL CAPS WHILE TYPING A POST!

[200hr Wonder]

LRA 3.9(c)

(c) 6-month Requirement

To meet the 6-month requirement for carrying passengers,
you must have completed 5 takeoffs and landings in the
same category and class within the previous 6 months.
If the flight is to be flown at night, then the takeoffs and
landings must have been completed at night. Glider pilots
have the option of completing 2 takeoffs and landings
with an instructor. Balloon pilots are not allowed to land at
night; however, if part of the flight is to take place at night,
then there must have been at least 5 takeoffs by night.

[Ralliart]

It sounds like you are a fairly new and low-time pilot.

If you have a relatively bare night rating and haven't flown at night in five months and you want to take up some passengers, I would take it upon yourself to do at least a couple circuits with another pilot first.

If the school wanted to do anything more than 30 minutes, then perhaps I can see how they'd be trying to milk you.

But a low time PPL with a fresh night rating not having flown night for 5 months? Use some common sense, bang off a couple touch & go and you'll be glad you did.

Waiting till you have a Cessna full of friends and family 500 feet AGL looking up into a featureless, dark sky is not the place you want to realise you're not current at night.

[Airtids]

For all you moaners, here's an idea: Go out and spend $75,000ish of your own dollars on an airplane, $10,000 a year on insurance, $5,000 on maintenance, and then offer it out for rent to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet who wants to fly it once every 5 months, at night, IFR to minimums, in moderate ice, without a checkout. Then come here and tell us all what you think about currency policies.

Hedley, blaming it on the insurance companies is a way for schools to keep control of the situation without having to tell a renter that they are basically a risky gamble . Me, I've always preferred to just be honest with them, but I can certainly understand why some might get uncomfortable. You are basically questioning each pilot's abilities, but my experience has generally been that their abilities usually need to be questioned. They sure as hell aren't going to question it themselves. Those are the ones who need it the most! The ones who come in hoping for a good checkout prior to launching are usually the ones you don't have to worry too much about.

[Hoov]

For all you moaners, here's an idea: Go out and spend $75,000ish of your own dollars on an airplane, $10,000 a year on insurance, $5,000 on maintenance, and then offer it out for rent to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet who wants to fly it once every 5 months, at night, IFR to minimums, in moderate ice, without a checkout. Then come here and tell us all what you think about currency policies.

Hedley, blaming it on the insurance companies is a way for schools to keep control of the situation without having to tell a renter that they are basically a risky gamble . Me, I've always preferred to just be honest with them, but I can certainly understand why some might get uncomfortable. You are basically questioning each pilot's abilities, but my experience has generally been that their abilities usually need to be questioned. They sure as hell aren't going to question it themselves. Those are the ones who need it the most! The ones who come in hoping for a good checkout prior to launching are usually the ones you don't have to worry too much about.

Well said

[AUGER9]

For all you moaners, here's an idea: Go out and spend $75,000ish of your own dollars on an airplane, $10,000 a year on insurance, $5,000 on maintenance, and then offer it out for rent to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet who wants to fly it once every 5 months, at night, IFR to minimums, in moderate ice, without a checkout. Then come here and tell us all what you think about currency policies.

Hedley, blaming it on the insurance companies is a way for schools to keep control of the situation without having to tell a renter that they are basically a risky gamble . Me, I've always preferred to just be honest with them, but I can certainly understand why some might get uncomfortable. You are basically questioning each pilot's abilities, but my experience has generally been that their abilities usually need to be questioned. They sure as hell aren't going to question it themselves. Those are the ones who need it the most! The ones who come in hoping for a good checkout prior to launching are usually the ones you don't have to worry too much about.

Well said

Ditto!

[trey kule]

I second that airtids..well said.

I truly believe that if you are not flying at least 10 hours a month , they are simply not staying current, particularily if they have little experience in the type of flying they want to be doing (night, IFR, complex type etc.)

A wise man said it once..It aint what you dont know, its what you think you know, that aint so...(maybe Abe Lincoln?)

[E-Flyer]

For all you moaners, here's an idea: Go out and spend $75,000ish of your own dollars on an airplane, $10,000 a year on insurance, $5,000 on maintenance, and then offer it out for rent to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet who wants to fly it once every 5 months, at night, IFR to minimums, in moderate ice, without a checkout. Then come here and tell us all what you think about currency policies.

Hedley, blaming it on the insurance companies is a way for schools to keep control of the situation without having to tell a renter that they are basically a risky gamble . Me, I've always preferred to just be honest with them, but I can certainly understand why some might get uncomfortable. You are basically questioning each pilot's abilities, but my experience has generally been that their abilities usually need to be questioned. They sure as hell aren't going to question it themselves. Those are the ones who need it the most! The ones who come in hoping for a good checkout prior to launching are usually the ones you don't have to worry too much about.

This was nice ! Yea I think the problem is that people don't like to admit that they need a check out. It's a lack of self-fulfillment eh?

I see how managing an airplane can affect the policies and everything; it's an expensive business to be in. But what's your opinion on having a requirement as such:

If you are a 100 hour pilot, you need a checkout after 1 month
If you are a 150 hour pilot, you need a checkout after 3 months

Doesn't that seem a bit stupid? Will the avid student learn that much in 50 command hrs with respect to knowing where to draw the line when it comes to recency? I can understand how his PDM might change but Recency is one of those things where people generally don't want to complete; which is stupid if you ask me.

Cheers !

[5x5]

Well said Airtids. Beyond that, anyone who has ever ran or tried to run a flight training unit knows that it is a very slim margin business. You don't make much profit each month and most of the proceeds from your blood, sweat and tears winds up in your aircraft. And they have to be flying for the business to be remotely feasible. Accepting some of the peoples view that anyone with a licence is entitled to rent without much of a checkout is one way to be out of business quickly. Poor flying equals higher maintenance costs and worst of all, very expensive downtime. And since you as the operator are taking the risk, it's also appropriate for you as the operator to be comfortable that renters fly the way you want them to.

And as a renter/customer, if you don't like a certain company's policy for checkouts - simple, don't rent there.

PS. trey kule - it was Mark Twain

[767]

THETRANSPORTCANADARULE IS:5T/O'SANDLNDGSINPAST6MONTHS!!

[Airtids]

[quote="E-Flyer
This was nice ! Yea I think the problem is that people don't like to admit that they need a check out. It's a lack of self-fulfillment eh?

I see how managing an airplane can affect the policies and everything; it's an expensive business to be in. But what's your opinion on having a requirement as such:

If you are a 100 hour pilot, you need a checkout after 1 month
If you are a 150 hour pilot, you need a checkout after 3 months

Doesn't that seem a bit stupid? Will the avid student learn that much in 50 command hrs with respect to knowing where to draw the line when it comes to recency? I can understand how his PDM might change but Recency is one of those things where people generally don't want to complete; which is stupid if you ask me.

Cheers ![/quote]

Our policy was less than 100 hrs; 30 day currency, 101-1000hrs; 60 day currency, and 1001hrs+; 90 day currency, and regardless, everyone gets one check per year each spring (although the instructor was thrown in for free on the annual, and yes, s/he got paid).

[E-Flyer]

[quote="E-Flyer
This was nice ! Yea I think the problem is that people don't like to admit that they need a check out. It's a lack of self-fulfillment eh?

I see how managing an airplane can affect the policies and everything; it's an expensive business to be in. But what's your opinion on having a requirement as such:

If you are a 100 hour pilot, you need a checkout after 1 month
If you are a 150 hour pilot, you need a checkout after 3 months

Doesn't that seem a bit stupid? Will the avid student learn that much in 50 command hrs with respect to knowing where to draw the line when it comes to recency? I can understand how his PDM might change but Recency is one of those things where people generally don't want to complete; which is stupid if you ask me.

Cheers !

Our policy was less than 100 hrs; 30 day currency, 101-1000hrs; 60 day currency, and 1001hrs+; 90 day currency, and regardless, everyone gets one check per year each spring (although the instructor was thrown in for free on the annual, and yes, s/he got paid).[/quote]

That makes more sense. Not 50 hrs.

[Hedley]

Our policy was less than 100 hrs; 30 day currency, 101-1000hrs; 60 day currency, and 1001hrs+; 90 day currency

That sounds like a very sensible ladder.

Hedley, blaming it on the insurance companies is a way for schools to keep control of the situation without having to tell a renter that they are basically a risky gamble

A little honesty goes a long way, though.

Checkouts are a bit of a touchy subject with me. It annoys me that if I tried to
rent a buck fifty, I'm going to "need" a check ride from some kid that started flying
two years ago. I'm a current airshow pilot, I've been CFI at three different schools
over the decades, and I've seen the checkout scam from both sides, let me tell you.

Hypothetical situation. A pilot I know has been flying a C172 at an outfit
up the road. He shows up and wants to rent one of my school's 172's. Why
the heck do I have to check him out?! What a waste of his money. In this
situation, you can bet we did one quick circuit, with an engine failure on downwind
abeam the numbers (surprise, surprise) to make sure his circuits hadn't gotten
too big. Hopefully he gets some value from the completely unnecessary checkout.

Anyways. When it comes time to fly a truly unique aircraft, say a Piaggio Royal Gull
(geared pusher multi-engine tailwheel retractable-gear flying boat) there is absolutely
no one around to check you out in it (there are only four in the world) so off you go,
solo for your first flight

But if you want to rent a buck fifty or 172, which are easy as pie to fly,
well now, time for a two hour checkout!

[5x5]

Hopefully other FTUs out there also take into account a new renter's history in establishing what will constitute a check-out. We certainly don't apply a cross the board, one size fits all approach. But certainly less experienced pilots that haven't flown recently are going to be checked as they don't have the skills as well established. But even a high-hour pilot might get a slightly more extensive check if they aren't that current in a particular type or haven't flown in the area. Although we have a stated policy similar to Airtids, we modify it as the situation dictates and the renter knows beforehand what it will consist of.

As for the guy who is flying at the outfit down the road - we'll check him out twice as long (j.k. sort of). That's one of the reasons checkouts are required - not every school and therefore not every pilot operates the same plane in the same manner. I don't think we're scamming anyone and potential and current renters know up front what our policies are. If they disagree, they can, and should, use their power as the customer and take their busine$$ to a school that better fits their wants or needs.

[Hedley]

That's one of the reasons checkouts are required - not every school and therefore not every pilot operates the same plane in the same manner

True, but the same could be said of the instructors
at an FTU - all of them might operate the same plane
in a completely different manner.

If I had a buck for every time I heard a student say
that he's switched instructors, and now he has to
learn a different way to fly the circuit

[Shiny Side Up]

Yup. Schools have very very tight recency requirement
regardless of your experience. They will tell you it's
because of their insurance, but that's hogwash - they
want the $$$ dual from you.

Yes I do want the money from you. You're going to pay it one way or another. Either I submit to the insurance company and do more frequent check outs (pay the instructors) or do less frequent check outs and pay higher rates (pay the insurance companies). Your choice. Wait actually its not. Since you're paying the same, I'm going to choose to make more money off ya.

I'm really tired of people bitchin about company mandated recency requirements for renters. The fact of the matter is that 90% of the general aviation public who does the renting out there does such a poor job of maintaining their skill level that I fully agree with the requirement and have no compuctions about making them submit to check out rides. Those airplanes are my livelyhood - some fool smashes it up, I'm out of a job. Unfortunately that makes life a little more expensive for the few that do do a good job of keeping themselves current. If you walked through my door tomorrow Hedley, wanted to rent an airplane, I'd be a fool to let you have it by whatever experience you said you had, or was written in your logbook. Though I'd gladly make you a deal, you can fly my airplane without a checkride if I can fly yours.

I didn't think "night currency checkouts" were a big deal either until a while back an "experienced commercial IFR" pilot with 2000+ hours just about flew us into the ground upon falling prey to the archetypal black hole effect on 3 take offs in a row. According to his log book it had just been over 8 months since his last night flight.

[Hedley]

Yes I do want the money from you

I appreciate the honesty.

If you walked through my door tomorrow Hedley, wanted to rent an airplane, I'd be a fool to let you have it by whatever experience you said you had, or was written in your logbook

Fair enough. There are plenty of loonies out there, we
have never before met in person, and you have never
seen me fly.

Though I'd gladly make you a deal, you can fly my airplane without a checkride if I can fly yours.

Actually, there is a list of pilots whom I will gladly let fly my aircraft,
and I sure as hell don't need to ever check them out. The deal
works both ways - I fly their aircraft - often performing low-altitude
aerobatics at airshows - without them checking me out, either,
because it would be a complete waste of both of our time.

Wasn't it Robert DeNiro in "The Fockkers" who talked about the
"Circle of Trust"?

[Invertago]

If some Joe walked off the street and wanted to rent my car for $120 for an hour I'd say no. It is only a $20k car, I've never met this guy, even if he proves he can drive, how do I know he won't rally on it and treat it like a.... 'rental'. It amazes me that there are people who will rent a $60 000 airplane for $120/hour or so to some guy they just checked out for half an hour. Renters really should appreciate the company's that provide this service. I've told renters to go buy their own airplane or go elsewhere because while they can fly, they treat the plane like shit. That shit pays my bills thank you very much.

[bartonfly88]

If some Joe walked off the street and wanted to rent my car for $120 for an hour I'd say no. It is only a $20k car, I've never met this guy, even if he proves he can drive, how do I know he won't rally on it and treat it like a.... 'rental'. It amazes me that there are people who will rent a $60 000 airplane for $120/hour or so to some guy they just checked out for half an hour. Renters really should appreciate the company's that provide this service. I've told renters to go buy their own airplane or go elsewhere because while they can fly, they treat the plane like shit. That shit pays my bills thank you very much.

Nicely said.

But I did the flight last night, without a hitch, greased the landing. I was just wondering about the recency requirements.
Oh and I've been flying steadily for 4 months, just did my commercial flight test.

Thanks for the feed back