A/C down in SK - Jan '07 - Draft Report Critical of TC

[Cat Driver]

Maybe all TC resources are concentrated in BC. . .

Well not in my case because most of the resources they used to cover up for and protect their B.C. resources were in Ottawa.

[Widow]

Documents I have on hand show that TC has long identified Pacific Region as especially "problematic".

This case just highlights that the "problems" aren't exclusive to Pacific.

If they are under-resourced, then perhaps it's time to revamp TC so that there aren't so many overlaps of authority both within and betwixt other gov't agencies. It can't go on like this.

Isn't Transwest one of those companies that have been slammed quite a bit here on AvCanada?

If I'm reading this article correctly, the pilot and co-pilot had both complained on more than one occassion about the other ... why on earth would they be paired under those circumstances???

Could that pairing have been what resulted in this accident? I find it odd that the article doesn't reference the "cause" ...

[Cat Driver]

Documents I have on hand show that TC has long identified Pacific Region as especially "problematic".

There was a report done by Bonita Smith on how the Pacific region was managed.

The report was so negative that it was buried and re-written.

It stated clearly and precisely that under its management at that point in time the inspectors worked in an atmosphere of fear and thus they follow the dictates of the thug sitting in the top management position.

I have not had any contact with TCCA since my legal issues were finished.

Has there been any change in the culture under Nowzek since then?

[crazy_aviator]

Here is a short letter from a friend who is employed as an apprentice in a small AMO ,, and my replies ,,



Hey whats goin on? You need someone to watch your house? I wanted to ask you about the SMS system. A few times in the past few weeks i've brought up some stuff that has rang a bell in my head to be written down as a saftey issue. These were issues directly concerning the aircraft. One was edit name being complacent and writing shit down without investigating anything, and today was a snag that i found on the some aileron cables where they wear on the rub strip near the baggage liner. Well apparently i'm the only one that was watching out for that untill today. remember the one you always told me to look for?
Well anyways we took a look on the other Lakes that were in the hangar and 2 more aircraft had the same or worse cable wear. I guess there writing it up as a SDR. Is that something that goes into the SMS ??

Reason why i ask is everytime i bring up stuff that i think is "unsafe" they get pissed off. and today i was shot down and told the SMS system ONLY applys to the employee saftey hazards, then a big argument insued lol because i've always thought the SMS emcompasses the ENTIRE operation, not just employe hazards, but aircraft issues, manegment issues etc....

Thanks man, just wondering what you think?


Hello ,

Nothing much new here, finished painting the plane and am working at ( company name) the past 2 weeks. I would REALLY appreciate you caretaking my house thanks , leaving 22nd for 2 weeks.
I have the SMS ducuments from Transport Canada if you wish to peruse them . SMS stands for SAFETY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM . Its a whole system that is designed to take the place of TC oversight and audits and it is simply ( In the words of one top TC official ) A Proper Company management system period !!! SMS includes ANYTHING that can lead to a breach of safe working / management conditions
From a brocken ladder to a poor or lacking system of record keeping, defect deferral system, to inappropriate communication systems between all departments ( Information dissemination) ALMOST every function or action of an aviation company has safety concerns tied to it and like the cheeze block model, systems aught to be in place to stop the chain or errors that leads to an accident/death. ESSENTIALLY, Transport Canada is ASKING the industry to GROW UP and take safety into their own hands, being proactive,, instead of reactive when TC audits point out glaring deficiencies. On inspection of an aircraft, if a cable is found frayed in a difficult area to look at or is being missed by the AME s or companies, then a SDR is to be initiated to make the industry aware of the problem that is going undetected. IF there are multiple annuals being done on aircraft by your company where snags or safety issues are being often missed THEN that is a SMS failure wherin , the SYSTEM of communication of responsibilities, proper and complete inspection and defect rectification is at fault. Management tells you that it is exclusively employee safety issues , The reason why they tell you that is that ( company name ) is a command and control type of company where 1 person is at the helm and he is old school and doesnt want to allow anyone else to have authority or participate in System safety. SMS empowers all employees and owners to positively advance towards self management and everyone being accountable. Saying SMS is to discern and fix employee hazards eliminates looking at hazards CAUSED by owners or management and making the owner/ manager also ACCOUNTABLE . Saying SMS is only for employees safety is like saying that the SYSTEM or the company is okay BUT the employees are at fault , an immature way of running a company ! SMS has been around in different forms for awhile in aviation, Places like Air Canada have their owm SMS type systems and self audits and self employed TC reps also. I hope this helps you . You may disseminate this letter to whom you wish

next letter,,

Here is an odd example . An inspection on a caravan is being done on the night shift with not enough employees and too much to do . Near the end of the shift, the DOM or Lead AME signs off many inspections as done when they were not . This is a safety issue , so a person can either go to the AME or management or the owner or TC or the confidential safety reporting telephone number ( snit line) OR you can write up the absense of the required inspections as a safety issue and it would be dealt with in that manner You havent told the boss or the AME (who is under pressure to lie and commit a criminal offence by signing off something as done when it wasnt) ,
But you write-up the matter as an SMS issue. In an ideal world , where angels fly around and there is a pot of gold at the end of EVERY rainbow, this would be done BUT in the real world , its quite unlikely the apprentice will cut his own head off in support of doing the right thing !!!
Another example, If the jacks at ( company name) have no locks on them and keep leaking down, then this is obviously a safety issue , It is written up and analysed as to risk and the proper outcome and time limits applied to rectify the situation and to minimize risk ( which was done at (( company name)) ) The locks were not required IF everyone adhered to a strict system which took the leakage of the jacks into effect BUT the RISK would be high THEREFORE , there was a better way , install locks and use them ,,thereby mitigating risk and reducing the checks to prevent an accident caused by failure to adhere to a set system of monitoring and shoring up the aircraft to prevent accident or injury DUE to the accepted leakage of the jacks !!

[Cat Driver]

The reason why they tell you that is that ( company name ) is a command and control type of company where 1 person is at the helm and he is old school and doesnt want to allow anyone else to have authority or participate in System safety.

Why is the term " Old School " used?

Would I be considered as " Old School " just because I started in this business before most of you were born?

[crazy_aviator]

i was referring to "old school" as an attitude or a way of doing things, like the "old boys network" of folks like Preuss or the captain 30 years ago who was god and the cojo served him coffee and didnt question his ways . I wasnt referring to age or good ability

[Widow]

Seeing as this is the draft report that the article is about, I can't help but wonder how much of this criticism of TC will be contained in the final report ...

[Cat Driver]

O.K. crazy-aviator fair comment, because for sure that mindset was not uncommon and we should have evolved beyond that stage. .

[Cat Driver]

Seeing as this is the draft report that the article is about, I can't help but wonder how much of this criticism of TC will be contained in the final report ...

If their past history has any part in it the final report will be sanitized sufficiently to deflect any criticism of how they operate that would interfere with the size of their performance bonuses.

[Widow]

The journalist and one of the survivors were interviewed on CBC Radio this morning ... http://www.cbc.ca/morningedition/media/ ... _47564.ram

[flyinthebug]

Thanks for that link Widow..interesting

[Check Pilot]

Cat,

"Old school" means dinosaur. Like me.

And you.

We're irrelevant with our skills and knowledge any more.

Nobody cares in the "new" world of aviation of what you or I think and it probably matters not one iota to them.

Aeroplanes will still get flown.

Fewer and fewer fresh faces in aviation will crash aeroplanes than before because the "new" kids won't take crap from some stupid "old school" Operator any more. They are now on their own. And they are an overwhelming, overpowering and unstoppable future force, hung onto iPods, facebook, myspace and the internet like flightsim and lots of other aviation virtual reality stuff. It actually works for them.

I know a few of them and they already know more about a lot of the traps that it took you and I years to avoid. And they have yet to put a foot on a rudder pedal for real.

Your experience and mine does not matter a bit any more to this new bunch of kids.

They won't listen or care to what you or I have to say because both of us are irrelevant to todays technology anyways.

They could care less about us -- and maybe properly so too-- The "new"bunch of pilots have grown up with an expectation of getting their own way -- and -- RIGHT NOW. And there isn't a damn thing any of us "old school" guys can do a thing about it. I think maybe these new kids might be on the right track. My problem is that I can't see the railwy they are on and I'm probably gonna get run over by their train from behind.

Computers and a far different attitude about the new, "I don't give a shit about you old farts" makes us "old farts", pretty much irrelevant to them. The new guys have been led into a new world of thinking by our flying schools. It's not wrong either. Maybe it's better. It's not my way necessarily, but it's the way the new computer powered generation is going to get it done, whether you or I like it or not.

The both of us are now truly dinosaurs. Nobody really gives a rat's ass about our experience, knowledge or skill.

I never have crowed about my own abilities to anyone. I don't care if anyone wants to hear my experiences and I prefer not to tell anyone anyways. It's my skill, knowledge and expereince and I would just as soon keep it to myself. Otherwise it's SEP - Someone Else's Problem. I'll just keep my stuff to myself and let the folks make the same mistakes I made and hopefully manage to stay alive on their own merits.

People have to realize that they are the makers of their own destiny. Nobody, or no one, can or will make it for them.

For you and me ., computers and our new wireless world have made us totally irrelevant and perhaps only worthy of some dusty corner of some museum of history.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Check Pilot I agree with you on most of what you have said here, however during my last years in aviation I was working within the ( New age generation. ) and involved in the training industry that used all the tools to train these kids from their first flight to their first paying job sitting in a Boeing or Airbus.

Generally speaking these kids were far more fascinated with the hands and feet skills needed to " FLY " the airplanes such as the Decathalon and the Pitts than they were with " OPERATING " the Boeing and Airbus sims. They would rush out into the hangar to help push a Pitts outside to watch it fly and if a jet flew over they paid no attention to it....

I am truly happy to have had the opportunity to get to " OPERATE " the new generation of aircraft and their simulators which in effect are aircraft bolted to the floor.

Anyhow there are still kids just like we were out there who are a real pleasure to fly with....but you are right our generation lived in another era completely.

You should come out to Nanaimo and go flying in the Husky on amphibs with me and we can pretend we are back in the fifties.

[Old fella]

Check Pilot.

A very lucid post, well put together, thought process spot on , grammer/punctuation first rate - A+ for that paper.

To the theme at hand. The "stick and rudder" skills that you, the Cat, . and to a lesser extent myself(trying to be humble amongst top notch individuals like you chaps) is a result of the older years/age/era. That's the way it was in those days, like the FMS/glass/autoflight is in the current era. I have seen both sides and I don't compare one to the other - not really worth it and really, who cares! Thirty yrs ago I got an endorsement on the CV-14, yup, the one and only PBY-5A. I may have 300 hrs TT on it mostly tankering to the fires. Whether I was good it it, not for me to decide but I was there did it, and it was "stick and rudder" flying at it's best and I was part of it with fond memories.

[flyinthebug]

Check Pilot, . & old fella... all very good posts.

Im certainly no where near the experience level of Cat but have flown some of the same machines over the last 15 years. Check Pilot nailed it on the head, guys with "stick & rudder" skills are becoming a thing of the past.

I will fondly remember my 3 years on the coast in some very interesting and varied equipment. It was all stick and rudder flying and on foggy days, some luck never hurt either. Ive flown a DHC2 under the gate in YVR to get in and done other things im not proud of to stay alive.. But I wouldnt trade a single min of that white knuckle by the seat of your pants flying. They were the very best times of my life.

The thing I found odd of the "new generation" of pilots is that many arent even taught how to read a map.. let alone any advanced skills in that area. My first CP (the legend N. Wright in YRL) got in TCC with me and handed me a map at 500 ft. I remember him telling me 500 ft was too high and made it easy.. we dropped to 300 then he got me good and lost! I learned though and he ended up being happy with my performance and let me go. Many of the habits i still have in a floatplane are a direct result of his teachings. I still find myself hiring and training about the many benefits of good hands and feet.. but I must concede its just not as important as it once was.

My point is, although our skills may have become irrelivant on some level for financial reasons, those same skills are what breeds the storys we have all enjoyed on here and in person about many legends in our industry. I could only hope to enjoy a career such as Cat, CP, Old fella, etc Doc and others and although I wont end with 15000+ hours, I did manage a few thousand along the way and had the best time anyone could wish for.

Just fly safe and follow the regs.. glass or not, regs are there to save your life!
Cheers, FTB

PS.. I wonder if The Old fog Ducker will weigh his opinion in? Its certainly another highly respected one by many:) Hope that strokes yer ego bud lol. Cheers.

[Cat Driver]

I wish I could really express what flying for a living was really like.

It was awesome and terrible and sometimes at the same time.

I'm almost at the end of my time as a pilot now because the one thing I can't change is the passage of time but I am satisfied that when the day comes that I fail a medical I will be able to just accept that I am truly finished with flying for a living.

I post here because my only real passion is and always has been aircraft of any type and I was fortunate to have flown so many different types in so many different places I can't even remember them all.

I can not believe that I never smashed up an aircraft it is far more incredible to me than to anyone else because there were sure lots of times only fate kept me alive.

Aviation has sure evolved from the old days when nav aids such as VOR were not even dreamed of much less the computer generated cockpits we have today.

It was quite the ride and if I were to have the choice to do it all over again I would.

By the way I finished the hydraulics installation in the Husky this afternoon and soon the thing will be sitting on the Amphib floats...and that is what flying is really all about anyhow.

[Wonderdog]

Check pilot,
I was taught the day you quite learning, was the day you killed someone with an airplane.
Now what makes you think we don`t miss listening to experience, if you ever do talk. Good rant.

[Old Dog Flying]

To all of you other old dogs, may you always have clear skies and the wind at your back and stay safe. After nearly 60 years of moving tin and rag thingies it is only a matter of time before we all bite the bullet and the digital kiddies will be running aircraft with computers only...and when they get into trouble...kiss your ass goodbye.

In the meantime ., enjoy the Husky ...I certainly did.

Barney

[Widow]

Sidebar recently brought this up in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=54&t=55415), which reminded me that we have not seen the final report. It has been over seven months since this article, so I assume it has been released by now. It's not on the TSB website, which may only mean it hasn't yet been translated.

Does anyone know if the final is out? I'm very curious if the final will contain criticism of TC and SMS implementation, as the draft seemed to imply.

[snaproll20]

same old yadda yadda yadda

At the rate Transport Canada is retreating from its responsibilities under the Air Act, we should be free of them in about six months.
At that time, hopefully, the Auditor General will declare the Ministry an expense without justification, somebody will listen, and we shall all be done with them.

Interesting thought though.....Would many more people would die if TC disappeared?

[chancellor]

The whole SMS thing is almost like leaving the fox to guard the chicken coop and only checking up every so often.

On a side note from the original post, " the 24 year crew member he expressed concern about" why was she allowed to fly the night approach into a 2900 foot airstrip in the first place. It seems this whole safety problem/error chain may begin in the left seat. I am not sure if all the problems out there are a result of lack of oversight there has to be some common sense as well.

[petpad]

What's the latest on this?

[Widow]

TSB report hasn't been released yet.

[Captain X]

Something seems very odd that it is almost 3 years and still no report??

[Widow]

The Transportation safety Board of Canada Releases its Report into a Crash in Sandy Bay, Saskatchewan
(Gatineau, Quebec, October 13, 2009) - The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) will hold a media availability on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 to release its report into a crash that occurred in Sandy Bay, Saskatchewan, in 2007.

The following members of the investigation team will be available to answer questions and provide one-on-one interviews:

Who:

Mr. Peter Hildebrand, Regional Manager, Air Investigations, and
Mr. David Ross, Investigator in Charge

When:

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 starting at 10 a.m. central time

Where:

Park Town Hotel - Meeting Room 140
924 Spadina Crescent East
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
S7K 3H5

To schedule an interview:

Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Media Relations
Telephone: 819-994-8053

The news release and the final report will be posted, at the same time, on the TSB website at www.bst-tsb.gc.ca.

The TSB is an independent agency that investigates marine, pipeline, railway and aviation transportation occurrences. Its sole aim is the advancement of transportation safety. It is not the function of the Board to assign fault or determine civil or criminal liability.

- 30 -

For more information:

Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Media Relations
Telephone: 819-994-8053

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do?m= ... nid=488899