Ferry flight involving crossing the Rockies

[Louis]

Hello,

A couple of months ago I asked for information regarding importing an aircraft in Canada from the US. Unfortunately that deal fell through a few days later.

However I've been recently approached to ferry another BE-19 (Beechcraft Musketeer Sport) by another potential buyer.

This time, the airplane is located in California, in the Los Angeles area (KWHP to be precise). My experience in "mountain" flying is limited to ranges with the highest top at around 4000'.

I'm still early in the planning stages but

I have two possible routes so far:
-clearing customs in Sault-Ste-Marie, with a stop in North Bay, then St-Hubert.
-clearing customs in Windsor, with a stop in the GTA (would Oshawa be a good choice? what about Brampton or City Centre?) then St-Hubert

The problem is, both routes involve crossing the Rocky mountains in Colorado, with MEFs reaching no less than 14800' MSL going towards YQG and 14000' MSL going towards YAM. IMO, the airplane is underpowered for those conditions; it has a 150 hp Lycoming O-320, and the rate of climb in ISA conditions per the POH is 83 fpm @ 12000' ASL, 2150 lbs gross weight.

I'm considering going much further south through New Mexico to avoid the highest terrain, although this will add a fair bit of flying to the trip, it should enable me to stay under 10000' all the way.

(I would either detour through KWHP-(KDAG)-61B-KBDG-KABQ-KDHT-KADT or KWHP-VCV-HEC-GFS-KIGM-Dunton-KPRC-KSEZ-P14-ZUN-GUP-KGNT-KABQ-KDHT-KADT then a pretty direct route outside the mountains like KADT-KBIE-KFFL-KGYY-CYQG-CYOO-CYHU)

Any other routing suggestions? I'm looking for extra advice and ideas, as well as mountain flying advice and relevant reading.

Thanks in advance,

Louis

[fougapilot]

Louis,

Since you are in CYHU, I strongly recommend you go out and buy the VFR charts from one of the local vendor (you might already have). On them you will usually find VFR routes through the Rockies. These route are depicted as corridors and are well known of FSS. Some may even have recommended minimum weather.

Also, you might want to go on the helicopter forum and ask the same question (or go to one of the local helicopter school like Passeport Helicos or perhaps even Helicraft). There is certainly is someone there who went through the same problem as you. You see, all those R22 and R44 helicopters are made in California and most (if not all) of them are flown back here. Certainly they have some experience about crossing the Rockies with altitude challenged aircraft they could share with you.

Other then that, El Passo NM. There is a reason why it bares such a name. Its the easiest way to cross the Rockies. A bit out of the great circle route, I know, but the safest way to go none the less. Plus, its good for the logbook

Cheers,

F

[Phlyer]

If you do decide to fly through the Rockies, do it in good weather. I know this seems blatantly obvious but it doesn't make it any less important. I knew lots of guys that had tons of VFR mountain experience and still managed to kill themselves.
If you're used to using gps to navigate you can not rely on that either; it plots straight lines and going through passes are anything but. It can help you find a spot to land in an emergency though.
If you can bring someone along familiar with the area that would help a lot.
Good luck - remember that only you know your limits.

[StudentPilot]

I read a couple American aviation forums sometimes and I've seen the same advice given over and over. If you don't have a turbocharged engine to go over, and you have very little or no mountain experience, follow an interstate. Navigation becomes as easy as possible and if anything goes wrong you have a very long, paved runway to land on. I'm sure if you ask on an American aviation forum there will be lots of advice about the best routes to take to the northeast.

Personally I would stay in the US as long as possible and clear customs at St.Hubert or as close as possible. I've heard most US FBOs provide better service than is normal in Canada, many have free courtesy cars, etc. Odds are you can find cheaper avgas in the States as well.

Then again, I've never crossed the Rockies or flown in the States, so my advice is baseless.

[Cat Driver]

Louis are you planning on doing this soon?

The reason I ask is it is winter in the mountains now and the weather is very unpredictable.

Having said that as long as you are under no pressure to fly and if the weather is bad you have enough money to just wait then it is just another cross country except you will need good weather to fly the mountain VFR routes...for Christ sakes don't stray from the safe VFR routes which will keep you fairly low for most of the flying not to mention if the thing quits you will hopefully be able to land on a highway instead of up in the mountains where you may never be found .

Also fly as much of your route in the USA as possible because the service at the FBO's is light years ahead of Canada.

[Louis]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies so far.

fougapilot: I didn't buy the charts yet, but I did manage to figure out some things with the help of airnav.com and http://www.gelib.com/maps/Sectionals/Aero_Charts_nl.kml which gave me sectional charts. I will of course buy up to date one should this project work out as hoped. On the other hand I have not noticed any recommended VFR mountain routes like those I'm aware exist on VNCs. Good idea to ask Robinson ferry pilots. I stumbled upon a document that says they only allow flights east from November to March, I guess for density altitude considerations? (Cat did mention unpredictable weather at this time of the year). I will look into going further south through El Paso (instead of Albuquerque), the amount of SUAs alone (!) should make that part of the trip interesting...

Fotoflyer: duly noted. IIRC the airplane itself doesn't have a GPS, we may have a 296 or something like that. I'm pretty at ease with computers and anything electronic, so I might input enough waypoints to follow those roads/passes with the GPS being somewhat useful, but that remains to be seen.

StudentPilot: Your advice about interstates isn't too bad, but does depend on local conditions and next destination. Following the south shores of lakes Ontario and Erie may be worth the thirty or so extra miles, we'll have to do the math. Oh, and would you mind posting or pm'ing me some links to those forums?

Cat Driver: I spoke with the potential buyer earlier today, and it would probably be after the holidays. I don't believe I'll be under too much pressure to fly. The buyer does want to come along, but I will make sure he is fully aware of how hard it is to predict the time required for such a cross-country, and that plan B may involve him going back home commercially.

Goodbye,

Louis

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Louis, with proper planning it will be a neat trip, just use good judgment weather wise and it will be O.K.

Try and talk to local pilots on each leg as they will be more than happy to help you and tell you about the local area.

And you could luck in and have perfect weather.

[shitdisturber]

A rough rule of thumb we always followed when I was an instructor teaching mountain checks. If the winds at 9,000 ft are above 25 knots, don't go; in all likelihood you're going to be in for some major turbulence. As has been stated, stick to the preferred VFR routes and stay as much as possible to the sunny side of the passes. That's going to be a bit of a problem for you since you're east bound; the sunny side of the pass is the north side, where the guys going westbound are supposed to be. Whatever you do, keep your eyes wide open, don't rely on people following the odd and even rules for direction of flight! On one mountain check I did, we were east bound through the Crowsnest pass at 7,500, when I spotted a Katana coming right at us at our altitude; my student didn't know anything was wrong til there was a burst of language that would not have gotten me much of a welcome in church, followed by me banking and diving the airplane out of the way of our new friends who continued on blissfully ignorant of what had just happened. They even made a position report just after I passed them.

[trey kule]

As . said...neat trip. I have made the ferry flights similar to this many times over the years.
There are several routes....Straight east..lower terrain and valleys. then up the east side and across.
Also up the coast there is only one or two higher pieces of ground however this time of year you are going to run into fog and you still have to go through the mountains in Canada.
And you can go up through Minden/Reno/ Boise and Medicine Hat..This is through some really ugly territory though if you dont follow the roads and you need 11500 to get over direct from boise.

I had a rule that helped me I will share with you. If I could not get over the rock, either because of Wx. or A/C capability, I did not try to go through it.

I envy you. I kind of miss these trips,

[Moustache]

Having done many flights across the rocks VFR in the US and Canada, my advice would be to be flexible with your route. Go where the weather is good! Being fixed on a single route can potentially keep you grounded for weeks while you try to wait out the weather. The shortest or nost direct route is seldom the best, particularly when it takes you over the worst section of N.A. And use all of the other good advice posted. Sounds like fun. Can I come?

Moustache

[MichaelP]

The route I would take is the I-40 as far as Oklahoma. I have flown this route a few times and there are plenty of places to go.
It's largely desert and so you miss the worst of the weather unless you are unlucky.
I did arrive at Winslow one day to find a fog bank about to roll over it, it did, but not before I got down. Three aeroplanes with three pilots arrived to be fogged in. All strangers, we signed in at the Best Western, Michael, Michael, and Michael!

From Oklahoma to St Hubert direction I have never flown. But I would plan for the I-44 route north eastwards and try to stay as clear as possible from the Great Lakes weather area.
Perhaps head up into New York state and aim for Plattsburg and then clear into Canada at St Hubert itself.

It is better to do these trips with the aircraft remaining on the USA register.
There's no need for a TC Ferry permit and permission from the FAA, and any mechanical troubles enroute can be looked after by US A&Ps without question.
Be prepared to stay at many places enroute... If the weather is bad, don't hang around the FBO smarting about it, get out and see people and learn about the locality you're in.
I spent two days at Medford Or once, and three at Montague-Yreka on one delivery flight... Had a great time, enjoyed the people and the places. I could have been sitting in the FBO for too many hours hoping for something that was not going to happen for hours or even days.
In other words, you don't have to get there, don't kill yourself in winter weather.

[Phlyer]

IIRC the airplane itself doesn't have a GPS, we may have a 296 or something like that. I'm pretty at ease with computers and anything electronic, so I might input enough waypoints to follow those roads/passes with the GPS being somewhat useful, but that remains to be seen.

I'd say that's a great idea; the problem being that you may get fixated on making sure you fly that route if you went to the trouble to input the waypoints. As others said, be flexible.
Depending on what personality type the owner is also - remember you have the final word on go/no go.

[alti2d]

also try http://skyvector.com/ for online VFR charts of the states. I didn't look at your link, so maybe you've got the same info, but this site is very good to get an idea of what you're up against without buying all those expensive charts. Good Luck, sounds like it'll be a tonne of fun!!

[marktheone]

there must have been a typo in your post. What is a BE-19? I'm not too up on smaller aircraft and also it is 12000#'s with 150Hp?

Just curious, thats all.

Cheers,

Mark

[Louis]

.: hmmm. perfect weather, I've seen stranger things happen

Shitdisturber: thanks for the rule of thumb.

trey kule: (scribbling notes) if unable over mountains, do not attempt tunneling through. Given my destination, going through Alberta, while probably enjoyable, is way too far off my great circle to justify.

Moustache: It does sound like fun and I hope this works out. But then again I'm not the one buying an airplane so it's not exactly under my control. Unfortunately, there'll barely be enough room for us two. (Does anyone know of FAA allowances for overweight operations on ferries? Not that I'd do it in the mountains, but once past them, it could enable us to fly with full fuel for longer legs. Afaik the airframe is identical to the BE-23 going from the firewall aft, and its rated for 300 pounds more. So the structure itself shouldn't pose any problems. Take-off distance, rate of climb, and cruise speeds are the factors left. I won't fly overweight if I can't do it legally as well as safely. Too much risk and liability.)

Michael: I actually had traced a course that was pretty close to I-40, without really noticing the interstate while doing so... And upon further reflection, I would probably be following I-40 just past the New Mexico-Texas border to Dalhart, TX. Then north towards Cleveland, stateside along lakes Erie and Ontario (probably cheaper fuel, depending on exchange, will have to do math between that and going via the GTA), and onto St-Hubert.

Alti2d: My kml link in the first post has a mosaic of the sectionals you load in Google Earth.

Marktheone: No typo in my first post, but I will clarify it right away. A BE-19 is a Beechcraft Musketeer Sport, fixed-gear single-piston four-seater. Here's an example:



The Beechcraft Musketeer page on Wikipedia gives some decent information.

I'll try to keep everyone updated when something new comes along.

Thanks,

Louis

[MichaelP]

Another consideration is Customs.
When you arrive in Canada there can be a delay and so it is better to make your arrival into Canada as close to where the aeroplane is ultimately going as possible. I would try to make St Hubert my Canadian landfall so if Customs gives me trouble it's where I want it to be when any problem is cleared up.
I must say though that Boundary Bay Customs did not give me any trouble when I brought a Warrior in from the USA.

I'd be careful flying in the vicinity of the Great Lakes too. Weather there would be my concern but perhaps someone local to the area would know best, perhaps a pilot from Sarnia or even Niagara Falls can let us know what the usual winter weather is to be expected.
I know I was stuck in Saginaw with heavy rain and fog...

[RatherBeFlying]

There is the odd interstate that goes through the mountain.

Airplanes can't.

So check the chart and talk to the locals.

[marktheone]

OK. So it is definetly not 12,000Lbs with 120HP.


Mark

[MichaelP]

There is the odd interstate that goes through the mountain.

It's just as well the I-40 is an even number isn't it.
This route is good although it get's high by Flagstaff... Lean the mixture!

[canwhitewolf]

this airship did it by choosing routes shown in this blog, maybe this could be usefull to look at for interests sake, a bit south but safe

there are views of routes here

http://airshipventures.blogspot.com/200 ... chive.html


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