Sonic Blue report out.

[iflyforpie]

But then why pull the OC before an investigation proves it was or wasn't a maintenance issue?

If it was a 'quid pro quo' arrangement surely the guy on the receiving end would want to try and preserve that arrangement and not make things overly difficult for his employer (TC) by jumping the gun and pulling an OC.

From my own experiences with Pacific Region they are bumbling bureaucrats and incompetance and wrong focus are certainly posibilities. I know you have a different opinion . and I am not going to let the cat out of the bag on that one again. But you are right, they should have done more and should be ultimately held responsible.

['effin hippie]

Widow. If the industry really wanted to focus on pushing down these types of accidents, the best thing they could do would be to make IFR certification a mandatory part of the commercial license.

They could also put a greater focus on flying in mountainous areas and getting exposure to marginal VFR in a training environment. All too many flight schools and colleges ground their machines in comically good weather.

The type of GPS described could never be anything but a benefit. However, it wouldn't do much to reduce VFR->IFR CFIT, partly for what Doc said: absolutely it would lead marginal operators to push greater risks, and partly because so many VFR pilots are not IFR certified or current. Ask anyone - inadvertently entering IMC is a difficult, urgent situation for even the most experienced and is no way comparable to an anticipated, controlled entry on a planned IFR flight. Chances are by the time the poor guy/gal goes into IMC they are way low, way stressed and way behind the airplane. They'll be lucky just to stay right-side up, let alone read a moving map and navigate by it, no matter how nice a display it has.

ef

[2R]

Apparently the 208 in the Sonic Blue crash was a previous Skyward 'van. It hadn't been in SonicBlues possesion very long(~1 month).

Not quite accurate .The aircraft was operated by Regency for years .After Regency's holding company imported it from the US.That was the second 208B hull loss for the same bunch.

[grimey]

Apparently the 208 in the Sonic Blue crash was a previous Skyward 'van. It hadn't been in SonicBlues possesion very long(~1 month).

Not quite accurate .The aircraft was operated by Regency for years .After Regency's holding company imported it from the US.That was the second 208B hull loss for the same bunch.

Yea. The registration was dated August of 2004, and was likely with the holding company since 2001. Skywards didn't start getting rid of theirs until after they went belly up, in early 2005. Not that Skyward's old aircraft were in great shape when they left, just this wasn't one of them. FSKS spent several months under the care of a few AMEs before Calm Air flew it, if I remember right.

An ex-skyward 310 had a gear failure in YYJ less than a year after they got rid of it, though:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 38#p160338

On a funny note, one of my friends finally got some of their owed pay from skyward last week. Only took 3 1/2 years or so.

GRXZ's registration info:

Aircraft Information
Mark: C-GRXZ
Common Name: Cessna Model Name: 208B
Serial No: 208B0469
Basis for Eligibility for Registration: Type Certificate - CAR Standard 507.02 (1), 507.03 (3) - A37CE
Category: Aeroplane Max take-off weight: 3969 kgs
Engine: 1, Turbo Prop
24-bit address: 110000000111001111111100
Regional Office: Vancouver Year Imported: 2001
Base of Operations: CANADA , British Columbia, Vancouver
Manufacturer Information
Manufacturer: Cessna Aircraft Company
Country of manufacture: U.S.A. Year of Manufacture: 1995
Registration Information
Type of Registration: Commercial
Owner Registered Since: 2004-08-05
Latest Certificate of Registration Issued: 2004-08-10
Last Registered Owner Information
Name: International Express Aircharter Ltd
Trade Name Used Regency Express Flight Operations
Address: 100-4400 72 St
City: Delta Province/State: British Columbia
Postal Code: V4K 5B3 Country: CANADA
Region: Pacific
Mail Recipient: Yes Invalid Address: Mail has been returned from the Post Office as undeliverable.
Line

[The Other Kind]

Didn't Wildcountry have that Van before Sonic Blue?

[square]

Oh I'm Sure Cats got some story about this one time at band camp flying around some old radial over the north atlantic when Captain Ahab shot him with a harpoon type story but

[ScudRunner]

Something else to consider:
So your a young pilot who just dropped a bunch of money on a PPC to someone who said they would let you build some hours and get your career moving in a stagnant industry, not being all that wise in the ways of the world you start flying for them. Heck you can live in your moms basement in YVR its not so bad just paying your dues you think.

Now a colleague of you gets his hours cut for bringing up safety matters or broke something on the plane, You over torque the prop, perhaps over temp it. unbeknown to you the other pilots had the same thing happen and they didn't want to report it either fearing there hours will be cut or not aloud to fly again, its a shitty industry out there at this time, no jobs at all. So You don't report it, the other pilots do the same........................

Over the winter on the west coast lots of Ice lots of new pilots with newly bought PPC's to fly the aircraft. Some make mistakes as we all have, but most of us had mentors in our company, a CP we could talk to and not fear.

Just a Story?
Lets just let that simmer in your heads for awhile.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Just a Story?
Lets just let that simmer in your heads for awhile.

That is reality and could quite conceivably lead to an engine failure.

[Widow]

Pilot’s family disappointed but ready to move on

By Tracy Holmes - Peace Arch News

Published: November 06, 2008 4:00 PM
Updated: November 06, 2008 6:50 PM The father of a White Rock pilot killed in a 2006 crash near Port Alberni says little has changed since his son’s death to prevent future tragedies.

Jonathan Huggett said Thursday Transport Canada hasn’t been open about its knowledge of problems in the industry, nor has it acted sufficiently on recommendations made to improve conditions.

“This is nearly three years now, and Transport Canada has still done nothing about any of this,” Huggett said, the day after a coroner’s report was released. “(There’s been) lots of reports, lots of public awareness, but if I was to say, ‘are things any safer today than they were three years ago?’ Probably not.”

Edward Huggett died Jan. 21, 2006 when the single-engine plane he was flying for Sonicblue Airways lost power and crashed en route to Vancouver. Cause of the power loss was traced to a snapped turbine blade that caused loss of power to the aircraft.

Despite Edward’s efforts to land the Cessna on a logging road, the plane crashed, killing the pilot and two passengers, including a three-year-old.

In his report, coroner Willem Van Herk determined Edward’s death was accidental.

Among many points, Van Herk notes a Transportation Safety Board investigation resulted in a recommendation to Transport Canada to require installation of terrain awareness and warning systems (TAWS) in aircraft like that Edward was piloting.

But while Transport Canada told the Peace Arch News last January that the agency has already acted on that particular recommendation, Van Herk notes “implementation and compliance have been delayed.”

As well, the report notes Transport Canada promised a review of regulations related to single-engine instrument flight rules operations. As of the report, dated Oct. 14, that review was not complete.

Transport Canada’s Rod Nelson said Thursday he has yet to see the coroner’s report and therefore could not comment.

Van Herk’s seven recommendations include an echo of the TSB suggestion for SEIFR operators to install TAWS on their aircraft.

He also called for: a review of pilot training on engine-failure procedures; pilots to be required to develop contingency plans for their flight routes to minimize risks in emergency landings; GPS databases to be current; and, regulations addressing better restraints for child passengers.

Huggett described Van Herk’s report as a good one.

However, Huggett said he is disappointed with the recent outcome of lawsuits filed in connection with the crash. All of the suits were settled out-of-court last week, he said.

“I don’t know who paid what money to who, but amounts in millions of dollars were settled by the defendants,” including Transport Canada, Huggett said.

Huggett was advised not to disclose the amount he and his family ruefully accepted, but described it as “inadequate.”

The family had wanted the matter to go to trial to force all documentation to be made public, he said. Lawyers, however, advised against. They said if a judge ruled the defendants’ offer was reasonable, the family would be hit with court costs of everyone involved.

Huggett noted the issue is not about money. The family’s intent was always to donate any proceeds to a charity in their son’s name.

“This was about calling people to be accountable.”

Their settlement will be donated to Peace Portal Alliance Church to benefit a Ugandan ministry that supports children who have lost parents to the AIDS virus, Huggett said.

Huggett said the coroner’s report marks the end of a difficult journey.

“We’ll go on with this for the rest of our lives,” he said of dealing with the death of their youngest son. “We probably won’t raise the issue any more now. We have our own memories and now we’ll just move on.

“I have a sneaking feeling somebody’s going to be calling one day to say, ‘do you realize there’s been another similar accident?’ And then we’re back into the same thing.”

http://www.bclocalnews.com/surrey_area/ ... 60614.html

[Chuck Ellsworth]

“I don’t know who paid what money to who, but amounts in millions of dollars were settled by the defendants,” including Transport Canada, Huggett said.

The fact that TCCA keeps their top management in place is astounding....they claim there is a shortage of funds to hire people.

I wonder how many good employees TCCA could attract and hire if all the money spent defending these top managers in TCCA was spent in that manner.....of course first there would need to be a house cleaning starting with the DGCA and the Head of the Pacific Region...and that is very unlikely to happen because the rot is so deep in the system it is almost impossible to cut out.

[iflyforpie]

The blade failure was a result of a metalurgical flaw. Not over temp, over torque, or bad maintenance. They had the trend monitoring records to prove this. Nobody was more surprised than me at the findings.

[2R]

Didn't Wildcountry have that Van before Sonic Blue?

Yes they did .For a brief time .They even rebuilt the tail after an arguement with a forklift

[xsbank]

Gotta add my name to the pile - Doc and . are correct. There is no way NONE that I would ever let anybody I even like, let alone love, fly in a commercial single engine anything. I've had my share of failures too, piston and turbine, and the only reason I'm here now to annoy you useless lot is because there was more than one.

All engines can all quit and I'm not risking anybody's life just because somebody had figured out how to do something cheaper.

And I'Pie, if its pilot error they are still dead.

[teacher]

Found an article with HARD numbers to add to this discusion. The stats are a little out of date (2000-2005) but give a very intersting insight.

PC12 in service aircraft in the USA: 370
Number of accidents: 10
Fatal accidents: 2
Engine related: 2 (1 of which I believe was caused by incorrect use of the manual over ride lever for FCU failures)
Odds of a fatal accident: 0.54%
Odds of an engine related accident: 0.54%
Number of fatal engine related accidents: 0

King Air 200 in service in the USA: 1153
Number of accidents: 35
Fatal accidents: 11
Engine related: 2
Odds of a fatal accident: 0.95%
Odds of an engine related accident: 0.17%
Number of fatal engine related accidents: Unsure of this one

So from these numbers one can conclude that you are more likely to have an engine related accident in a PC12 however you are more likely to survive.

Another quick point to make is that in a single you are planning to put it down and therefore doing a "controled crash" rather than flying an approach on 1 engine or climbing out at blue line close to the ground, which unless it is done properly, can result in a subsequent "uncontroled crash".

The Disclaimer:

These numbers are from an article and not my research. They are also out of date AND are only comparing King Air 200s VS PC12s in the USA. In my PC12 training a couple years ago we were told that at that time there had never been a fatal engine related accident. The combination of rugged design and slow landing speeds in my opinion substantially improve your odds of surviving in a PC12.

Here's the article:

http://www.globalair.com/discussions/co ... 81#replies

http://www.westair.com/images/pdfs/PC-1 ... rticle.pdf this article also has some interesting info but again, only about the PC12

[iflyforpie]

A Caravan should theoretically (but not always as this accident proves) have more of a chance of survival than a PC12 due to the lower stall speeds and weights. A Caravan owned by a former incarnation of a company I worked for hit the ground CFIT outside of Inuvik and not only were there no fatalities, but the plane was rebuilt and put back into service.

Here's another article that appeared in the ASL regarding SEIFR with some hard numbers as well.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... eature.htm

I fly single piston engine over the rocks (VFR) for over half the total hours I fly and the concerns are there. I had one engine failure (on takeoff) that I managed to survive with the plane intact. But I also maintain my own aircraft, exceeding the maintenance required and no expense is spared. But I am far far far more likely to get killed in my car on the way to work than to have an engine fail on me that will result in death.

And how many single engine helicopters operate in similar conditions? Below the H/V curve?

[broompusher]

Something that some may not know. When the engine was in for overhaul, the overhaul company told Sonicblue that they highly recommended that some of the blades be replaced because they were showing signs of fatigue. They reported this to SonicBlue. SB asked if it was mandatory replacement, overhaul says no but it is highly recommended. Of course the blades were never replaced. The rest is history....

[human garbage]

Something that some may not know. When the engine was in for overhaul, the overhaul company told Sonicblue that they highly recommended that some of the blades be replaced because they were showing signs of fatigue. They reported this to SonicBlue. SB asked if it was mandatory replacement, overhaul says no but it is highly recommended. Of course the blades were never replaced. The rest is history....

That is complete BS. The company that did the overhaul has a good reputation. I can't image them putting an engine with fatigued blades back together and signing it out. No way. Its easy enough to bash Sonic without making unbelieveable crap like that up.

...Now a colleague of you gets his hours cut for bringing up safety matters or broke something on the plane, You over torque the prop, perhaps over temp it. unbeknown to you the other pilots had the same thing happen and they didn't want to report it either fearing there hours will be cut or not aloud to fly again, its a shitty industry out there at this time, no jobs at all. So You don't report it, the other pilots do the same......

Great story .....Didn't have time to simmer in my head because I know from reading the TSB report that there was no engine data to support that anything like that happened. Possible? Hell yes, but in this case not applicable.

It makes me sick to think that any pilot would over torque or over temp and not report it to save their own hide. Supportive management or not, the other pilots that have to fly that plane are your peers and maybe your friends. Is it not worth taking your lumps (or a firing) for your mistake to potentially save another pilot's life? Makes me think of a certain individual that worked for Sonic who stopped stage cooling the engines when their time was short. Six cracked jugs in just over a month. Funny how it stopped once they were gone, so it was obvious who the culprit was. What was most amazing is they put everyone who flew there at risk just to be spiteful, even themselves. Future Darwin Award winner I'm sure.

...Also shoddy maintenance was partially responsible for bringing down C-GRIL, a Cessna 172 they (Regency) owned out of Boundary Bay that was our lawn ornament in Chilliwack for several years.

Really? I though it had more to do with loading it up 300 lbs. over gross and trying to take off with flap 20...Sure the flaps being restricted due to the selector surround was strange, but an honest mistake when putting the interior back in I'm sure. That leaves the stall warning they don't believe worked from examining it after the fact. I don't know about the day of the accident, but I was in GRIL two days before doing stalls and it worked fine then...For the record I'm not trying to defend the condition that Sonic kept most their planes but GRIL had just a full rebuilt the year before and was in great shape compared to the cargo fleet... No point in trying to convince you they were great as you said you had worked on them.

[iflyforpie]

That is complete BS. The company that did the overhaul has a good reputation. I can't image them putting an engine with fatigued blades back together and signing it out. No way. Its easy enough to bash Sonic without making unbelieveable crap like that up.

As an AME I deal with all kinds of owners, the good ones, the bad ones, and the cheap ones. I release aircraft all the time with outstanding airworthiness items at the owners request and simply put in big huge letters on the release what is outstanding as it is the owner's responsibility to ensure the aircraft is airworthy. It is only the responsibility of the shop to make sure the work they performed is airworthy.

I though it had more to do with loading it up 300 lbs. over gross and trying to take off with flap 20...Sure the flaps being restricted due to the selector surround was strange, but an honest mistake when putting the interior back in I'm sure. That leaves the stall warning they don't believe worked from examining it after the fact. I don't know about the day of the accident, but I was in GRIL two days before doing stalls and it worked fine then...For the record I'm not trying to defend the condition that Sonic kept most their planes but GRIL had just a full rebuilt the year before and was in great shape compared to the cargo fleet... No point in trying to convince you they were great as you said you had worked on them.

The only time I saw GRIL, it was a pile of wreckage in the back 40 where I worked. When it crashed it also had a deferred fuel gauge, which is illegal.

The rest of the Sonic Blue fleet was in my hands after the bankruptcy and still hold the record for the some of the crappiest planes I've seen coming from a line operation. Heck I've pulled planes out of desert storage in better condition.

[Cat Driver]

human garbage

Interesting user name for someone trying to convince people their opinions are worth reading.

[Widow]

Mr. Huggett on CTV news last night ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZHN0WjCZRc

TSB recommendations and assessment of responses:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/recommendations ... _a9510.asp

[safetywatch]

At the end of the day, the blade failed because there was a metallurgical defect in the blade that had been there since manufacture. It had not been detected. All the lawsuits have now been settled out of court (most with an accompanying gag order - except for the pilot's father who refused to sign any gag order). There were some amazing revelations during Discovery, but all of those have been sealed by the Court as part of the settlement. Many of them should have been made public.

Access to Information requests have now been made to TC so their documents can be disclosed. Expect a major fight to get them, particularly as there are e-mails among TC managers warning each other not to fly on Sonicblue prior to the crash. They considered the airline unsafe. That will be pursued.

The CTV story is interesting because of the implications for the latest sad event. While no cause has yet been determined, the point being made was that even when TSB and the Coroners Service make recommendations TC does nothing about it. Would the latest crash have occurred if the pilot had had TAWS which was a recommendation coming from the Sonicblue issue. We don't know right now - pure speculation.

One last note - because Pacific Coastal is registered with WCB, and the passengers were all employees with companies registered with WCB and were on their way to work, everybody is prevented by WCB legislation from going to court. Any financial settlements will be solely down to WCB. There is no way anyone can go to court to force disclosure so we will have to rely totally on the TSB for info.

[Widow]

One last note - because Pacific Coastal is registered with WCB, and the passengers were all employees with companies registered with WCB and were on their way to work, everybody is prevented by WCB legislation from going to court.

Just to further this comment, the only way WCB can recover their costs is through litigation (they cannot fine for CLC infringements in federal jurisdiction). Unless fault is found with an employer outside of Canada (i.e. not covered by WCB), they cannot/will not litigate.

[Widow]

Some Answers for Family of Dead Pilot
BRITISH COLUMBIA/CKNW(AM980)
Jill Bennett | Email news tips to Jill
2/19/2009

An e-mail exchange between a Transport Canada Inspector and regional manager has the father of a pilot who died wondering if actions could have been taken to save his son.

The e-mail, released after a freedom of information request, contains statements from an inspector about safety concerns he has with Regency Airlines.

That airline was operating as Sonicblue at the time of the crash that killed pilot Ed Huggett and two others in 2006.

Jonathan Huggett says the e-mail confirms suspicions he had about Sonicblue all along, "One of his inpectors tells him this airline is really, really bad and we need to shut it down and remove it's operating certificate. He tells him that in the year 2000 and nothing else is done about it, apparently until 2006, the day after the crash. So Transport Canada knew about the situaiton for 6 years and we now have documented proof of that."

Huggett says the e-mail even suggests Transport Canada inspectors were reluctant to fly in Sonicblue planes because of safety concerns.

[Cat Driver]

I have been asking the same question here for ever.

Logical thinking would conclude that the only reason some of these companies keep operating when " everyone " knows certain companies are operating in serious non compliance of the law is there must be a Quid pro quo.

Safetywatch should find some way to do an in depth tracking of the living style and material ownership of a few of TCCA's top managers , you never know where a money trail will lead.

Access to information generally speaking fails to get any real damning evidence as they black out lots if stuff, but sometimes one trips onto some real golden nuggets.

I have found the best method to get leads is having friends in the system who will sometimes tell you what they know.

Remember TC is a real different animal compared to the private sector due to the layers of protection they have within their structure that allows for a totally different set of moral guidelines, or lack of morals to lubricate their climb to the top of the structure.

Two emotions motivate the ladder climbers, the lust for power and a fear and distrust of everyone else in their system.

Which makes for a culture of fear and bitter hate within their system.

I work on those two emotions when I want hard to get information and sometimes I get rewarded.

My best advice to safetywatch is when you start to delve into their world you are going into a real sewer, be careful.

[Northern Skies]

Well I'm sure the PBY would have made it to the surface of Superior and landed fine and bobbed around a bit with no power.

This is a hijack, and beside the point... anyway,
I fly the north shore and Nipigon extensively, and I wouldn't want to end up in the open on that water in ANY aircraft on most days. I've had to wait up to five days to get into some spots, so it was calm enough to be "really, really rough" instead of "catastrophic". The point is, don't underestimate big freshwater, the short wave period makes it different from ocean swells.

Back to the thread.