Ottawa to send attack helicopters to Afghanistan
26 Nov, 4:37 PM
OTTAWA - Canada's own heavily armed helicopters will ride shotgun on new CH-47 Chinook transport choppers in Afghanistan, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Wednesday.
The eight specially modified CH-146 Griffon utility helicopters, which have been given weapons and extra sensors, will provide escort and protection, the minister told the House of Commons in response to a question from a Conservative MP.
The move represents an about-face for the Defence Department, which had asked NATO allies to fill that role.
Both the U.S. Army and Dutch forces have flown armed escort helicopters - mostly AH-46 Apaches - out of Kandahar Airfield since 2006.
After the $282 million purchase of Chinooks was announced in August, a senior military planner said that allies would be asked to protect them.
Speculation that the Griffons would be deployed overseas has swirled in defence circles for months.
Late in the spring, the federal government awarded a $25.9 million contract to L-3 Wescam Inc., of Burlington, Ont., to install an electro-optical and infrared sensor system on as many as 19 helicopters.
The air force has long wanted to send the Griffons into battle. Its initial proposal was made in December 2005 as the first battle group was preparing to deploy to Kandahar.
The proposal was rejected by former chief of defence staff Gen. Rick Hillier, who noted that Griffons don't perform well in the heat and high altitudes of Afghanistan.
The air force ran trials with armed Griffons, which are essentially civilian Bell 412s modified for military use.
Big transport helicopters, such as Chinooks, are vulnerable to attack by ground fire and rocket-propelled grenades when operating in war zones and usually travel with their smaller, armed cousins along for protection.
Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Ummm ... ooookay...
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
I hope they don't have any more Stingers left.
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Northern Skies
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Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
From another article:
GET YOUR F*CKING HEAD OUT OF THE SAND UJJAL!!!
WTF is wrong with this guy?Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh also expressed concern Wednesday, calling on the military to rule out any attack role for the new choppers.
"We need to put absolute restrictions on these escort helicopters…they cannot be used for attack purposes. They should be purely for defensive purposes, for escorting," he said
GET YOUR F*CKING HEAD OUT OF THE SAND UJJAL!!!
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Nothing wrong with a guy like that if you've already come to the conclusion he's(or she's) a first class putz.
Drinking outside the box.
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Northern Skies
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Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
I guess that's why he fits in so well with his party.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
"We need to put absolute restrictions on these escort helicopters…they cannot be used for attack purposes. They should be purely for defensive purposes, for escorting," he said
No attack options, in a war zone.
I'm sure he would like to ride in that helicopter.
ROFL.
Mr. Speaker, would Ussa like to ride in this defenseless helicopter?
*LOL*
No attack options, in a war zone.
I'm sure he would like to ride in that helicopter.
ROFL.
Mr. Speaker, would Ussa like to ride in this defenseless helicopter?
*LOL*
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Wow, this liberal MP has no clue...
this Chinook push is a major step for Canada, we need all the help we can get - from within and from allies - the CH47 beast is such a wonderful aircraft but such a slow moving bulls-eye. I pray for all my Chinook friends to make their mission a success and return home with the hero designation they so richly deserve.
PER ARDUA AD ASTRA
this Chinook push is a major step for Canada, we need all the help we can get - from within and from allies - the CH47 beast is such a wonderful aircraft but such a slow moving bulls-eye. I pray for all my Chinook friends to make their mission a success and return home with the hero designation they so richly deserve.
PER ARDUA AD ASTRA
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
7 years later and the Afghanis still do not have a credible Armed Forces. How many countries are fighting to liberate Afghanistan now? The world's most powerful Armed Forces? LOL!!!! But hey!!! Canada will add new sensors to their helicopters; that will win this war!!!! Errrr I mean Occupation.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
I was never in favour of Canada being in the war but now that we are there well I say put Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh on the hood of the chopper our guys there are up against not nice guys! maybe he will get the point the POS!
I can't belive the stupidity if the liberals are swinging that way I may permanently not vote for the nutjob ...oops that's the other guy in Iran LOL...(sorry didn't vote last time),,,
just wanna say you got the hardware USE IT! one Canadian life injured or lost is one too many !!!!! whose side is he on anyhow!
Dosanjh out to go out there before he shoots his mouth off.....our guys are getting killed has he heard as he sits in his nice and warm office in Ottawa paid by we the people!!!!!!
I can't belive the stupidity if the liberals are swinging that way I may permanently not vote for the nutjob ...oops that's the other guy in Iran LOL...(sorry didn't vote last time),,,
just wanna say you got the hardware USE IT! one Canadian life injured or lost is one too many !!!!! whose side is he on anyhow!
Dosanjh out to go out there before he shoots his mouth off.....our guys are getting killed has he heard as he sits in his nice and warm office in Ottawa paid by we the people!!!!!!
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Well said as I was never in favour of Canada being in this war....but if you got it use it!!!Dex wrote:7 years later and the Afghanis still do not have a credible Armed Forces. How many countries are fighting to liberate Afghanistan now? The world's most powerful Armed Forces? LOL!!!! But hey!!! Canada will add new sensors to their helicopters; that will win this war!!!! Errrr I mean Occupation.
Or bring em home now!!!
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Well I wasn't really responding to what Dosanjh was saying but I will add, the government and defense "sources" have stated that the helicopter will be used for defensive purposes only. I guess they have no clue and have their head in the sand as well. Next time CD maybe a link?
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Expensive solution again!
Paint them white, and there will be no need to defend the Chinooks!
We fly MI8 every day here, all over the place, especially Kandahar.
Paint them white, and there will be no need to defend the Chinooks!
We fly MI8 every day here, all over the place, especially Kandahar.
Success in life is when the cognac that you drink is older than the women you drink it with.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Dex...
The story I posted was from the Canadian Press, although they updated the article again and added additional information since I posted. What I found interesting in the decision to send the Griffon is that, suddenly, its operating performance must have improved as that had been the justification for not putting them in theatre.
The other articles relating to the comments that Northern Skies posted contain additional information to put them in context:
The story I posted was from the Canadian Press, although they updated the article again and added additional information since I posted. What I found interesting in the decision to send the Griffon is that, suddenly, its operating performance must have improved as that had been the justification for not putting them in theatre.
The other articles relating to the comments that Northern Skies posted contain additional information to put them in context:
Canada to send Griffon attack helicopters to Afghanistan
Last Updated: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 | 6:10 PM ET
CBC News
Specially modified helicopter gunships will escort Canada's new Chinook transport helicopters on operations in Afghanistan when they come into service in the new year, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Wednesday.
The eight specially modified CH-146 Griffon utility helicopters will be equipped with large machine-guns and sensors.
They will escort and protect six new CH-47 Chinooks, heavy-lift choppers already stationed at the Kandahar airfield.
"This is going to give us increased … aerial capacity, it will also save lives," MacKay said.
"If we have people not travelling on roads, being able to get to forward operating bases and other parts outside the wire, this is absolutely going to impact on our operational ability in theatre."
Big transport helicopters such as Chinooks are vulnerable to attack by ground fire and rocket-propelled grenades when operating in war zones and usually travel with smaller, armed cousins along for protection.
The military didn't indicate whether the Griffons will be outfitted with missiles, or if they'll be limited to an escort role.
"[The helicopters] can be used for other purposes as well, but that's its primary purpose," MacKay said.
Some, however, have raised concerns the Griffons could be used to launch aerial attacks.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai has repeatedly decried NATO's use of aerial bombings because of the high risk of civilian casualties, saying as recently as yesterday that such attacks by international military forces must end.
Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh also expressed concern Wednesday, calling on the military to rule out any attack role for the new choppers.
"We need to put absolute restrictions on these escort helicopters…they cannot be used for attack purposes. They should be purely for defensive purposes, for escorting," he said.
As many as 250 more Canadian troops will be sent to Afghanistan to maintain and fly the Griffons.
Previously, the Defence Department was planning to ask other NATO forces to fill the protection role for the transport helicopters, which cost $282 million.
The previous chief of defence staff, Gen. Rick Hillier, had rejected a role for the Griffons in Afghanistan, saying they didn't perform well in the hot and high-altitude environment.
The air force has long wanted to send the Griffons into battle, however.
So far, they have been used for transport, reconnaissance and rescue during the Saguenay and Winnipeg floods, the Quebec ice storm and international relief operations in Honduras and Haiti.
Hillier retired from his post in July and was replaced by Gen. Walter Natynczyk.
link here...
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Unless the helicopters are equipped with a shield generating system I'm at a loss to explain how they can defend anything without attacking who's shooting at them. I'm also sceptical that it's the Air Force that wants to use them in theatre. General Hillier was against it for well known performance reasons, and he gets his advice on what an aircraft can and cannot do from the Air Force. Maybe the Air Force just wants to contribute in a tactical way instead of just airlift and is willing to do whatever they can given the limitations of the machine.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
You do not need attack helicopters to build girl schools so they must be getting serious about hunting down the taliban and killing them

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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
Why would you need an attack helicopter to make concessions to the Taliban? Because in the end, that's how the whole thing will end. Taliban will get this, this and this, told to behave, play nice in the sandbox and everyone will leave with a warm, fuzzy feeling...until...?
Ever live in a place with a cockroach infestation? I have, you either move out or exterminate.
Ever live in a place with a cockroach infestation? I have, you either move out or exterminate.
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scrambled_legs
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Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
These helicopters are intended for defense only and will probably be used only in that role. I'm not sure what you guys don't understand about that. The Chinooks are being brought in for transport and the Griffons are being brought in to defend the Chinooks. They're simply a defense escort like the f18s that fly along side Air Force One. They're not on an offensive mission but rather, traveling as an escort through hostile territory. If they are fired upon, they will "defend" themselves and the Chinook by returning fire. What the other people are concerned about is whether or not they'll be flying offensive missions on their own, where they are attacking the Taliban with no Chinook in sight.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
The Griffon isn't an attack helicopter. It's a utility platform period. Does the Canadian Chinook and Griffon not have door gunners to begin with? Adding the Griffon to the flight of Chinooks will just add another target to shoot at. If they want armed escorts look no further than something that is armed, ie. AH-1 Cobra, AH-64 Apache etc...
I know many of you love my beloved Marine Corps,
, but the CF should really take a page out of our CAS playbook. We invented it, and we have perfected it.
This looks more like a shiny-helicopter syndrome, knee-jerk reaction by the Canadian military.
The F-18's can escort a flight of helicopters, you just have to know how to use them.
Tactics win wars, not fancy equipment.
As for the stingers: They aren't like Twinkies. You just don't open the package and expect them to work after sitting for twenty years.
I know many of you love my beloved Marine Corps,
This looks more like a shiny-helicopter syndrome, knee-jerk reaction by the Canadian military.
The F-18's can escort a flight of helicopters, you just have to know how to use them.
Tactics win wars, not fancy equipment.
As for the stingers: They aren't like Twinkies. You just don't open the package and expect them to work after sitting for twenty years.
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
No sh1t ... do they have batteries, which have discharged,expect them to work after sitting for twenty years
or leaked? Has anyone here ever owned a flashlight before?
And what about the explosive chemicals in the rocket motor -
they're going to deteriorate over time, and change composition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosives#Stability
Who here would drink 20 year old milk?
- Shiny Side Up
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Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
YES because some dead batteries are going to stand in a dedicated oppositions way. There is no possible way that they maybe could aquire new ones. Oh wait, what about the older versions like the Blowpipe and Red eye? Nah, those must be too old, and they could never possibly have any of those left. We also know that RPGs can not possibly be used to shoot down helicopters and any ammount of small arms fire up to the possiblity of 12.7mm could possibly cause any threat...
OR maybe someone should read their history books and determine WHY the AH-1 was developed, or why the Sovs put every available Mi-24D they could get their hands on into the fray.
Maybe if we're going to rent some Mi-8s lets not do things by halves, maybe we should look into renting a few of their bigger meaner relatives from the Mil factory.
OR maybe someone should read their history books and determine WHY the AH-1 was developed, or why the Sovs put every available Mi-24D they could get their hands on into the fray.
Maybe if we're going to rent some Mi-8s lets not do things by halves, maybe we should look into renting a few of their bigger meaner relatives from the Mil factory.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
These people are complete idiots. Both engines of the Griffon are P & W's (the Model makes no difference) and work together to keep the Griffon airborne through something called a 'Combining GearBox'. Any round or explosion that disables that C-Box instantaneously 'converts' this a/c into a single-engined 'rock-wagon' and the pilots are now looking for a place to make a controlled landing before they run out of sky and ideas at about the same time.
Somebody here stated that the Griffon couldn't be brought down by small arms fire. Well somebody here has got a lot to learn then. It's real simple buddy..........and this is how it goes in the 'real world' of combat and not like in some Hollywood-inspired Vietnam War movie. The two guys up at 'the pointy-end' of the a/c sit in Kevlar seats or some variant thereof. Those riding in the back might want to take their armoured 'brain-buckets' off and sit on them to protect their asses, if that's a concern. Whatdaya think you're in anyway....some flying, armoured Abrams tank? You're riding in an a/c that gets heavier with everything that you bolt onto it and with every body that you add to it. You don't have to add that much weight to it at Afghanistan temps before you gotta ask all the people in the back to lift their feet off the floor so you can T/O or ask them to throw off some of that shit back there so you can do the same.
"Defensive role only"? Sorry folks, but neither AlQueda or the Taliban were signees of any of the Geneva Conventions and your asses are flying over their territory too.
Somebody here stated that the Griffon couldn't be brought down by small arms fire. Well somebody here has got a lot to learn then. It's real simple buddy..........and this is how it goes in the 'real world' of combat and not like in some Hollywood-inspired Vietnam War movie. The two guys up at 'the pointy-end' of the a/c sit in Kevlar seats or some variant thereof. Those riding in the back might want to take their armoured 'brain-buckets' off and sit on them to protect their asses, if that's a concern. Whatdaya think you're in anyway....some flying, armoured Abrams tank? You're riding in an a/c that gets heavier with everything that you bolt onto it and with every body that you add to it. You don't have to add that much weight to it at Afghanistan temps before you gotta ask all the people in the back to lift their feet off the floor so you can T/O or ask them to throw off some of that shit back there so you can do the same.
"Defensive role only"? Sorry folks, but neither AlQueda or the Taliban were signees of any of the Geneva Conventions and your asses are flying over their territory too.
- complexintentions
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Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
I agree with Nark's post completely. It's a joke. The "Griffon" is a Bell 412 painted green. They don't even have mil-spec comms in them, just the civvie VHF! I believe the armament they've bolted on is some high-speed chain gun that makes everyone go "ooh ahh" in the demo videos but was never designed for a civilian airframe, that was in itself designed to move a few guys in business suits around Manhattan. Fire that thing a few times and I won't be surprised when they find cracks in the airframe. Don't even get me started on the performance issues.
I don't want this rant to be taken as anti-CF, exactly the opposite! If anything our guys/gals deserve the best we can give them - and this is it?! I'd rather see us beg the USMC or RAF for air support, if they have the right tools for the job...
And defensive my ass. Go after those radical mothers and KILL them! That's the job, even if the idiots in their cozy little Parliament chairs recoil in horror at the idea. There is no middle ground, just ask the residents of Mumbai...
I don't want this rant to be taken as anti-CF, exactly the opposite! If anything our guys/gals deserve the best we can give them - and this is it?! I'd rather see us beg the USMC or RAF for air support, if they have the right tools for the job...
And defensive my ass. Go after those radical mothers and KILL them! That's the job, even if the idiots in their cozy little Parliament chairs recoil in horror at the idea. There is no middle ground, just ask the residents of Mumbai...
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
For clarification and the understanding of the civilian and/or non-R/W crowd, these things may help in that way:
1) All R/W are manufactured with what are known as 'hard points' in the airframe for mounting, bolting/attaching certain items and in the military the internally/doorway mounted ffirepower is one of many items.
2) Unless things with Bell have changed sometime recently, then all civilian-made Bell 412's are manufactured at Mirebel Airport, just north of Montreal. The mil-spec 412EP's(CH146s) are all manufactured at the Bell Helicopters in Ft. Worth, TX.
3) There have been many Model changes and add-ons to the original Huey line of R/W, whose manufacture preceded the Vietnam War by many years and began as a design to meet a USAF contract in the mid 1950's. So the design of the Bell 412EP is but another one of the many, many variants of a design that is basically 52 years old. The M/R blades (4) will not tolerate operations in sandy/dusty conditions for any length of time without needing replacement. If mounted with what are known as 'chain guns' that fire at 6000 rounds.minute, activating them for ONE minute causes the magazine to go empty because it contains only 4000 rounds. Ifthat amount is increased, in one minute the recoil from two such guns firing causes the a/c to gradually slow down to the point where it finally stops and begins to back-up. Ergo, they are operated in bursts and if not mounted to secure 'hardpoints' will gradually tear the floor apart in the areas where the guns are mounted. Once that takes place, the a/c is in need of major airframe repairs and is groundedfor an extended period of time, compared to other maintenance occasions.
I trust this will help the 'uninitiated' in a little further understanding of just some of the reasons why Griffons do not belong in Afghanistan in any role. Ex-CDS Rick Hillier has already alluded in the past concerning another reason they should not have been sent.
Lastly, one might also ask why the CAF Griffons were not made in Ft. Worth, TX then, if that's where the mil-spec ones were manufactured for other folks? The contracts were awarded by the Canadian government under Marcel Masse, the Minister and an MP from Quebec. Also realize that the awarding of military contracts in Canada always turns into a political 'football game'. Means nothing at all to any Canadian UNLESS you are going to strap your ass into that a/c tomorrow morning and fly along next to a Chinook in a 'defensive' escort role for that a/c..........THEN it looses any humour it might have.
1) All R/W are manufactured with what are known as 'hard points' in the airframe for mounting, bolting/attaching certain items and in the military the internally/doorway mounted ffirepower is one of many items.
2) Unless things with Bell have changed sometime recently, then all civilian-made Bell 412's are manufactured at Mirebel Airport, just north of Montreal. The mil-spec 412EP's(CH146s) are all manufactured at the Bell Helicopters in Ft. Worth, TX.
3) There have been many Model changes and add-ons to the original Huey line of R/W, whose manufacture preceded the Vietnam War by many years and began as a design to meet a USAF contract in the mid 1950's. So the design of the Bell 412EP is but another one of the many, many variants of a design that is basically 52 years old. The M/R blades (4) will not tolerate operations in sandy/dusty conditions for any length of time without needing replacement. If mounted with what are known as 'chain guns' that fire at 6000 rounds.minute, activating them for ONE minute causes the magazine to go empty because it contains only 4000 rounds. Ifthat amount is increased, in one minute the recoil from two such guns firing causes the a/c to gradually slow down to the point where it finally stops and begins to back-up. Ergo, they are operated in bursts and if not mounted to secure 'hardpoints' will gradually tear the floor apart in the areas where the guns are mounted. Once that takes place, the a/c is in need of major airframe repairs and is groundedfor an extended period of time, compared to other maintenance occasions.
I trust this will help the 'uninitiated' in a little further understanding of just some of the reasons why Griffons do not belong in Afghanistan in any role. Ex-CDS Rick Hillier has already alluded in the past concerning another reason they should not have been sent.
Lastly, one might also ask why the CAF Griffons were not made in Ft. Worth, TX then, if that's where the mil-spec ones were manufactured for other folks? The contracts were awarded by the Canadian government under Marcel Masse, the Minister and an MP from Quebec. Also realize that the awarding of military contracts in Canada always turns into a political 'football game'. Means nothing at all to any Canadian UNLESS you are going to strap your ass into that a/c tomorrow morning and fly along next to a Chinook in a 'defensive' escort role for that a/c..........THEN it looses any humour it might have.
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
You are way out of your lane here - you have no concept of what comms the CH-146 possesses.complexintentions wrote:They don't even have mil-spec comms in them, just the civvie VHF!
Re: Ottawa to send attack (?) helicopters to Afghanistan
'commo check on the hotel ,check,commo check on the victor 1"
Ujjal Dosanjh is repeating the old official liberal party policy of deploying troops without the tools to get the job done .
edit/Lil
Ujjal Dosanjh is repeating the old official liberal party policy of deploying troops without the tools to get the job done .
edit/Lil



