Voyageur BE200 Capts.

[Trix]

Hey Everyone, VAL offered me Capt. BE200 based in either Timmins or Sioux Lookout. I was wondering if there are any current VAL Capts. based in these places that could tell me what it's like. What the sked is like, the towns, the company....etc Can you tell me what the word on the street is wtr to ORNGE taking the medevac stuff over? Yes I know they have a crappy bond, and they've definitly made a name for themselves on here as there are lots of threads... but without too much bashing, can someone who is currently employed there please give me some solid advice. PM me if you think that's best. I would really appreciate it.

[Doc]

Hey Everyone, VAL offered me Capt. BE200 based in either Timmins or Sioux Lookout. I was wondering if there are any current VAL Capts. based in these places that could tell me what it's like. What the sked is like, the towns, the company....etc Can you tell me what the word on the street is wtr to ORNGE taking the medevac stuff over? Yes I know they have a crappy bond, and they've definitly made a name for themselves on here as there are lots of threads... but without too much bashing, can someone who is currently employed there please give me some solid advice. PM me if you think that's best. I would really appreciate it.

They don't have a "crappy bond", you bought your job from them. Big difference. Huge difference. And, you may be the nicest person in the world, but you are part of a very big problem. As long as pilots are willing to fork over large sums of money to this bottom feeding operation, they will continue this slimy practice. Many thanks.

[Conquest Driver]

The first question you may want to ask yourself is "how long will this job last?"

As I understand it, ORNGE is going to replace the VAL 200 fleet with their own PC-12 fleet. So, let's suppose you select cosmopolitan Sioux Lookout as your base. If ORNGE drops the PC-12's in there first, VAL might want you to move to YTS or YQT. Who pays for that move? What happens to your training payment if you don't want to move? What happens if you have a partner who just got a nice job in YXL.

Might be some things to ask the VAL recruiting team?

[Trix]

Doc I appreciate where you are coming from. But I fail to see how Val taking out a loan for 8k in my name or signing a bond for 8k is really any different. Either way if I leave early I'm left paying the bill. There are still lots of companies, like Winair in the sunny Caribbean for example, that wont take you as an FO unless you have a -6 rating, only way to get one of those is to buy it and hope for the best. What about some skydiving ops that dont even pay their pilots? Val is going to train me, invest in me, someone who they don't even know and if I were them I'd ask for a little calateral for my investment. If I stay for the year I don't lose a thing. With pilots always looking for the bigger better deal, more and more companies are implementing a bond or promisary note. And yes its not the best, but if you were the owner of a beautiful Q400 fleet or insert any other glam job here, would you want to go around training all these pilots only to have them leave you for some place that might pay more, has a better sked or what have you after you just spent thousands training them? There are always two sides to the coin. And yes, I believe I am a very nice person, but I understand the hard times of the industry and just as we all love contracts that state that even in hard times I'm still going to get my full salary, companies love having contracts that state even when that better deal come along, at least they have some leverage when it comes to keeping their investments. Aside from Fuel and maintenance, training costs are a companys biggest expense, and with all these companies closing their doors, you might not be many companies left offering employment, let alone a bonded one. Food for thought my friends.

[alti2d]

Check out the 'training bond' topic in the employment forum for some arguments against training bonds, as argued by ALPA.

[Donald]

Trix: If the company goes bankrupt, who is making those loan payments?

If you find yourself working in less than desirable conditions (pay, sched, whatever), what is your recourse? Do YOU have any protection in the contract? I'm not suggesting that you intentionally bail after a year or less, but if the contract is unfairly protecting the employer, then you are stuck with them regardless of the situation (unless you like paying out 8K).

If the company needs a 8K noose, how good can they be?

There are still lots of companies, like Winair in the sunny Caribbean for example, that wont take you as an FO unless you have a -6 rating, only way to get one of those is to buy it and hope for the best. What about some skydiving ops that dont even pay their pilots? Val is going to train me, invest in me, someone who they don't even know and if I were them I'd ask for a little calateral for my investment. If I stay for the year I don't lose a thing. With pilots always looking for the bigger better deal, more and more companies are implementing a bond or promisary note. And yes its not the best, but if you were the owner of a beautiful Q400 fleet or insert any other glam job here, would you want to go around training all these pilots only to have them leave you for some place that might pay more, has a better sked or what have you after you just spent thousands training them? There are always two sides to the coin. And yes, I believe I am a very nice person, but I understand the hard times of the industry and just as we all love contracts that state that even in hard times I'm still going to get my full salary, companies love having contracts that state even when that better deal come along, at least they have some leverage when it comes to keeping their investments. Aside from Fuel and maintenance, training costs are a companys biggest expense, and with all these companies closing their doors, you might not be many companies left offering employment, let alone a bonded one. Food for thought my friends.

Is what they said in your "interview" after you asked about the "bond"?

[Conquest Driver]

we all love contracts that state that even in hard times I'm still going to get my full salary,

Am I to take it that they have given you a guarantee that they will not lay you off? If so, what sort of security have they backed it up with?

As for the security of your "bond" unless it's in a Lawyers Trust Account, if VAL ever gets into financial trouble you'll just be another general creditor.

[Carrier]

Quote: “What about some skydiving ops that dont even pay their pilots?”

I checked into this some years back when the regular rant about jump pilots not being paid at one notorious drop zone in Ontario came up yet again.

The answer according to HRSDC is that they are breaking the law. Employers, including skydive operators, are required by law to pay the minimum wage. Although aviation is federally regulated there is no federal minimum wage as such so the Feds use the minimum wage in each province or territory. That is the minimum that a commercial pilot must legally be paid. If you are dropping jumpers in Ontario then you are legally supposed to receive at least the Ontario minimum wage for your efforts. The same applies in other provinces and territories.

At the time I did that check I contacted several drop zones in Ontario who pay their pilots to see what they were actually paying. Remuneration was different, some paying by the hour and some by the load, but in all cases what they were paying worked out to be at least the then minimum wage. Free jumps, free food or a free beer at the end of the day was a bonus offered by some.

It is a fair and reasonable assumption that if an operator is breaking the law in one area, such as by not paying his employees, then he is likely to also be breaking the law and taking risks in other areas, such as maintenance, training, operating procedures, etc!

[Doc]

The VAL recruiting team, hard at work:




Some pilots will never get it.....

Trix...did I get that right? Only EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS? That must mean you already have time/PPC in a Be200? And, you're still giving them money? For WHAT????

[Chuck Ellsworth]

And yes its not the best, but if you were the owner of a beautiful Q400 fleet or insert any other glam job here,

There it is Doc, some of these pilots see flying as a "Glam job " .

Sort of like when want to get fu.ked why not just pay for it.

[NorthSky]

Trix, come jump in the machine with me for a day (or more likely a shitty Ontario December night) and I'll show you just how 'Glam' flying a 200 can be! Maybe you'll think twice before blowing daddy's 8 large on the likes of VAL...

[Just another canuck]

And yes its not the best, but if you were the owner of a beautiful Q400 fleet or insert any other glam job here,

There it is Doc, some of these pilots see flying as a "Glam job " .

Sort of like when want to get fu.ked why not just pay for it.

Now now ., this is about aviation... don't go knocking a perfectly normal and satisfying evening... sometimes it's ok to pay.

[douche]

YXL is nice in the summer months if you enjoy the outdoors. In the winter, if you can brave the cold, there's snowmobiling, hockey and ice fishing. That's IT! Nothing else is nice about Sioux. I never worked for VAL, so I cannot comment first hand. Remember what everyone is telling you thus far:

- ORNGE is taking over soon
- will you still have a job next summer
- who pays the remainder of the loan if you get laid off
- will they drop your salary from dedicated captain to charter captain if they keep you
- will you have to relocate and who pays for that

The industry is slowing down now. How slow will it be next June? Will you be able to find another job?

a loan for 8k in my name

Its YOUR responsibility!

........leave you for some place that might pay more, has a better sked or what have you

Why would you work for a place that doesn't strive to be the best? Do you only give 50% when you show up for your shift?

[tdot]

Trix, if you haven't allready done so, I would suggest that you contact VAL dispatch to get the YTS and YXL base phone #'s to call and speak with the pilots. I'm sure any one of them would be glad to speak with you, time permitting, to answer any of your questions so that you may form a real perspective and make a truly informed decision.

[Raven20000]

Ok we have a lot of VAL bashing on this site and none of the bashing is from VAL employee's.

First off yes there is a bond of 8 grand for the BE20. Well I have to say most places today have bonds. Ask why we have bonds, well us as pilots did it to ourselves. How many pilot's came to VAL got their PPC then went to Ken Borek for more money. Can you blame VAL for having a bond. For the bond it's not give VAL 8 Grand and you have a job, actually they will co sign the bond for you. So actually in this case the bond is in VAL's name. To be honest they co sign on most bonds.

For the training they invest quite a bit of cash. First you go to North Bay for 2 weeks for ground school. While in North Bay they pay for transportation to and from the hotel to base plus pay for the hotel. Then you go to Moncton for the sim where they also pay for the Hotel, Transportation, meals, etc... Then to Timmins for aircraft training where everything is paid for again. Also during all of this they pay for your air fare to North Bay, to Moncton, to Timmin's, to your base, to home. Now can all the experts on this site tell me how many companies actually do this?, trust me a lot don't. Don't you have to pay for your own hotel room for ground school with WestJet. I know VAL is not Westjet but just to make a point.

For the pay yes the North Bay Salary for charter is crap but man just look at Keewatin Air's latest ad, $45,900 for a medevac 200 captain. Here we are paid 65 grand for the medevac captain's plus over time. This year I will make close to 90 grand with the overtime. Not bad for a BE20. Plus on that note here we are never expected to bust duty times, bust minimum's, fly over weight or ever break any rule. Actually here if you do any of the previous expect to lose your job.

For people coming in yes Ornge is taking over soon but our contract was renewed until Nov 09. Also when they do take over, VAL will pay for the move if relocated to another base or if the BE20's are moved to North Bay for charter you will stay at the same pay rate as a medevac captain. Also if laid off then the bond is null in void.

If any body has any questions about Val please feel free to ask and I'll be glad to answer. Also if any body has any comments about VAL just ask an employee and we will all be glad to answer. Just a side note but most employee's are actually happy with working with VAL. Surprising isn't it.

And for DOC next time your in YXL just drop over to the base and any of us would be glad to sit down over a coffee and talk to you. Just think about it, it will only take one or two pilot's to leave for them to implement a bond. Come on your company is owned by bankers.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

For the bond it's not give VAL 8 Grand and you have a job, actually they will co sign the bond for you. So actually in this case the bond is in VAL's name. To be honest they co sign on most bonds.

Who makes the payments on the loan you both sign for?

Does the 8K loan bring your credit line down 8K if you want to borrow money during the time the bond is in effect?

[AuxBatOn]

For the training they invest quite a bit of cash. First you go to North Bay for 2 weeks for ground school. While in North Bay they pay for transportation to and from the hotel to base plus pay for the hotel. Then you go to Moncton for the sim where they also pay for the Hotel, Transportation, meals, etc... Then to Timmins for aircraft training where everything is paid for again. Also during all of this they pay for your air fare to North Bay, to Moncton, to Timmin's, to your base, to home. Now can all the experts on this site tell me how many companies actually do this?, trust me a lot don't.

I'm sorry, but this is the cost of doing buisness. A bond is okay, as long as you don't have to get a loan or pay up front, and the conditions are not in favor of th employer. In that case, you take a loan, take up YOUR credit (or your share, if VAL co-signs) to get a job, which is wrong. Why do they need to get the cash up front? Why don't they just make you sign a legal piece of paper saying "I shall pay 8000$ prorated over the period of 12 months in case I willingfuly quit before the 12 months are over" Nothing to pay or no loan to sign unless you actually break your promise and screw off somewhere else and everyone is happy? Why do they need your money??

[Just another canuck]

For the training they invest quite a bit of cash. First you go to North Bay for 2 weeks for ground school. While in North Bay they pay for transportation to and from the hotel to base plus pay for the hotel. Then you go to Moncton for the sim where they also pay for the Hotel, Transportation, meals, etc... Then to Timmins for aircraft training where everything is paid for again. Also during all of this they pay for your air fare to North Bay, to Moncton, to Timmin's, to your base, to home. Now can all the experts on this site tell me how many companies actually do this?, trust me a lot don't.

I'm sorry, but this is the cost of doing buisness. A bond is okay, as long as you don't have to get a loan or pay up front, and the conditions are not in favor of th employer. In that case, you take a loan, take up YOUR credit (or your share, if VAL co-signs) to get a job, which is wrong. Why do they need to get the cash up front? Why don't they just make you sign a legal piece of paper saying "I shall pay 8000$ prorated over the period of 12 months in case I willingfuly quit before the 12 months are over" Nothing to pay or no loan to sign unless you actually break your promise and screw off somewhere else and everyone is happy? Why do they need your money??

I'm not saying this is right but I say they WANT your money cause if you screw off somewhere else, most people will tell them to piss off anyway and not pay them. What if you go overseas or something?? Then they have to go through the trouble of taking you to court over a few grand. The pilot knows they won't cause it's just a pain in the ass for the company anyway... not worth their time and will cost them more in legal fees. This guarantees them that year.

I'm still pretty young in this industry but I agree with what's stated above. We did this to ourselves. The costs are too much to take risks and companies like VAL have used this solution.... and hey, they still have pilots and they still operate.

[AuxBatOn]

I'm not saying this is right but I say they WANT your money cause if you screw off somewhere else, most people will tell them to piss off anyway and not pay them. What if you go overseas or something?? Then they have to go through the trouble of taking you to court over a few grand. The pilot knows they won't cause it's just a pain in the ass for the company anyway... not worth their time and will cost them more in legal fees. This guarantees them that year.

I'm still pretty young in this industry but I agree with what's stated above. We did this to ourselves. The costs are too much to take risks and companies like VAL have used this solution.... and hey, they still have pilots and they still operate.

They probably have lawyers working for them already. It wouldn't be a hard case to win against someone if that contract binding the pilot to the company has been signed by the pilot, especially if he doesn't show up to court (if he did show up to court, he would probably have more to loose than the company in lawyer fees and such). Many many other companies do it without having to sign a loan or shell out cash up front and they operate just fine.

If pilots just screw off and never pay, it's probably because their relationship with the company wasn't that great. If you're at the point where you HAVE TO make them pay up front, maybe you have some bigger issues in your management, otherwise, your pilots would most likely leave in good terms.

[Conquest Driver]

I'm going to give this thread a "bump"

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40951&start=100

Firstly, this appears to be a "non prorated" bond. So at month 11 something goes bad. Maybe it's a family thing. Maybe something else. If you leave 1 month early, you're "on the hook" for the entire amount.

Let's say you bust a medical at month 11. What happens then? The bond document isn't really clear (at least to me) but if anyone is thinking of forking out his money, I think it's an important question to ask; and to get the answer included in the bond document.

I think it's been pretty well settled that pro-rated bonds are likely legal. However, I wonder about a non pro-rated one? Might make for an interesting court case.

JBI posted the following link:

http://www.canlii.org/en/nt/ntsc/doc/19 ... i6955.html

Here's the interesting part. I've chopped out parts in the middle of it for purposes of brevity:

Damages



[43] The defendant promised to remain in the plaintiff s employ and fly the

plaintiff s aircraft for a minimum of 24 months. The defendant breached that

promise. Although the defendant did not specifically promise, as a term of

the verbal agreement, to reimburse the training and other expenses incurred by

the plaintiff in the event he left the plaintiff s employ short of 24 months,

that is surely the measure of damages which consequently flow from the

defendant s breach.


[45] Through counsel, the plaintiff company acknowledged that as the

plaintiff did receive the benefit of the defendant s services for 10 months of

the 24 month minimum, it can claim reimbursement for only a proportionate

share of the expenses incurred, i.e., 14/24 of the above amount , or

$30,821.48.

So, I'm wondering if this might not be a precedent against non-pro-rated bonds. If you admit your loss will be zero at month 13, how do you argue that your loss is 100% at month 11?

[wallypilot]

Forget the too much bashing....there's a reason there was so much bashing....ask a dirty question, get a dirty answer.

Doc I appreciate where you are coming from. But I fail to see how Val taking out a loan for 8k in my name or signing a bond for 8k is really any different. Either way if I leave early I'm left paying the bill.

sure, if you quit. what if the company goes under? Don't think it can't happen? Recent examples are Zoom, Harmony, NACAir, among many others.

Val is going to train me, invest in me, someone who they don't even know and if I were them I'd ask for a little calateral for my investment.

Wel, if they interviewed properly, they would know you a bit. But, even then, every company in the world does this. Not just aviation companies. And a 10K PPC is nothing compared to, for example, training a line technician at Bell or Telus. And they don't make you take out a loan in your own name, or even sign a note saying you will stay longer than a day. It's the cost of doing business. But, because many pilots seem to be desperate for a crappy job, aviation companies can get away with this practice.

Aside from Fuel and maintenance, training costs are a companys biggest expense, and with all these companies closing their doors, you might not be many companies left offering employment, let alone a bonded one. Food for thought my friends.

Food for thought? Really? It's fuelled by demand my obtuse friend. Most of the demand for services VAL offers would not change even if the price went up 50%. (assuming a competitor didn't undercut them by using the same crap employment practices). However, I would wager a guess that the cost of trianing would go up very little without the "bond". Most guys stick around for one year, anyways.

Taking a loan out in your name is only making it less painful for the company if the company were to close its doors unexpectedly. It takes the debt off the balance sheet, and does nothing for you. They are taking advantage of you. They get you for a risk free investment. There are many many consequences to this practice. You do as you wish, but in the end you are perpetuating a problem that the next round of hires will be stuck with. But whatever....do want you want. That's the problem with society these days. Years and years of reinforcement that it doesn't matter what other people think. You should do what you want, do what you think you need to do. Well, maybe that's not such a good perspective. It does matter what other people think in some cases. It's a component in the glue that holds society together. Go ahead, whore yourself out to these companies. It doesn't matter what the rest of us think. Why even bother asking us, anyways? We've only got collectively speaking, centuries of work experience in this industry anyways.

Rant over. but probably to be continued eventually.

[Carrier]

Quote: “........then went to Ken Borek for more money”

What else did VAL expect? Do VAL and some posters here think it is right for VAL to pay pilots less than the market rate because VAL gave them job specific training?

If VAL pays less than the market rate then of course its employees are likely to move elsewhere. If VAL had paid their pilots the going market rate for pilots with that qualification and experience and treated them decently then they would likely have stayed.

In no other industry does an employer provide job specific training and then expect a new employee to continue in his job at less than the going market rate. Such an attitude is downright insolence! Job specific training (equivalent to a type rating or PPC) is required in any industry or profession and is part of the normal cost of doing business.

The employers did it to themselves!

[WetJet]

Trix:
YTS is WAY better than YXL. I think that was the original question. Do not pass up Timmins if the choise is presented.


Now here is a friend of mine's experience. He quit a good paying twin turbine captain job after accepting an overseas Dash8 job with them. Once he arrived, the position didn't come through and they offered him a job as a FO on a King Air. What would you do in this situation if they already had your $8000?

[C206Pilot]

lets here more from pilots who work there...

[Raven20000]

Yes I agree bonds are wrong and they shouldn't be but they have become a part of aviation due to our own fault. The point I'm trying to get across is VAL is actually a good company to work for when you get past the bond issue.

Also on the bond issue I know some companies don't have bonds but then they pay you 5 to 10 grand less in salary in the first 2 years of employment. Isn't this in fact paying for your PPC.