Buffalo is not looking for "pilots"....

[Doc]

But to apply to Buffalo for a non flying job, for some reason, a multi IFR is required? And still they come. It would appear that an "entry" level "pilot" position is not really a "pilot" position at all. I guess there are no local people to do these highly specialized jobs? Buffalo needs pilots? And now, I'll hear all about...."getting to know the airplane" It's total Bull Shit! And, I'll just bet they'll require you to sign some big fat bond as well? Maybe even bring a cheque book?

[LegoMan]

Well lets see a local would want $15/hr and benefits and still do a crappy job. But a pilot with the promise of flying a big ol airplane will do a better job because he wants to fly and will do it for crappier pay. Companies like these make me sick

[Just another canuck]

I don't know why this comes as a surprise to anyone... it's been going on for years. It's a foot in the door for a young pilot. I certainly don't think it's a good idea to put some 200 dude in the right seat of one of Joe's planes without even having him work for a bit.... or is it? Someone from Seneca perhaps... I'm sure he'd fit right in and would get along great with everybody. HA.. not a chance.

I suppose no one should have to work the dock for a summer either.

One season on the dock or 6 months on the ramp I don't think is a big deal... two or three years is stupid however, but if you've been at Buffalo for three years and haven't been checked out, it's cause they don't want to check you out and you probably already know that and should have moved on long ago.

[alti2d]

okay doc

[scopiton]

I talked with who, after 1 year on the ramp, had logged 50ish hrs on a dc3 and was not checked yet.
captains there choose the F/O they want to work with: you'd better have hope

[Doc Driver]

Heh. That job ad caught my eye too. I was thinking 'What about all those poor guys on the ramp'. Then I read the fine print.

[Doc Driver]

captains there choose the F/O they want to work with: you'd better have hope

Or don't be a total slack ass. Kind of like that idea....

[AJV]

Well I had an "experience" with Mr Joe and let me tell you I would not work there EVER! As a matter of fact I would rather instruct for a few years then work for him.

[Just another canuck]

Well I had an "experience" with Mr Joe and let me tell you I would not work there EVER! As a matter of fact I would rather instruct for a few years then work for him.

And I'd rather fly with someone with DC-3 or 4 time or C-46 time than an instructor.

[Doc]

[quote="Just another canuck"]I don't know why this comes as a surprise to anyone... it's been going on for years. It's a foot in the door for a young pilot. I certainly don't think it's a good idea to put some 200 dude in the right seat of one of Joe's planes without even having him work for a bit.... or is it?

You're full of crap. "having him work a bit......." Would make him a better pilot??? Keep smoking that dope there sport.
A couple of Grade "A" assholes I've known worked the ramp/dock. Nothing but "I know everything...." attitude.
Just supplies Joe with cheap (slave) labour.

[Just another canuck]

You're full of crap. "having him work a bit......." Would make him a better pilot??? Keep smoking that dope there sport.

First of all, I'm way past smoking dope... nothing but the needle for this guy.

A couple of Grade "A" assholes I've known worked the ramp/dock. Nothing but "I know everything...." attitude.
Just supplies Joe with cheap (slave) labour.

Ok, I think you've just proved my point. If you had an asshole on the ramp, at least the company found that out before they invest in a PPC for the guy. I know it's a rough system and some guys get burnt on this. I did myself. But for a company like Buffalo where it's pretty hard-nosed and hard-assed, the guys there wanna make sure the 200 hour pilot isn't a lazy idiot. Buffalo is an old company as you know and they choose not to get with times... that's Joe's choice, not mine.

Furthermore, just so you know... I would never have ramped for Joe. Too many horror stories and I don't like getting treated like shit, like I know a lot of them do.

And what about the dock, how the hell does a 200 hour guy get started for a single piston float operator... just let him/her go flying with their 7 hour float rating... no, you work the dock and swamp as much as you can for the summer... then next season, if you did alright you get a 185.

[AJV]

Well I had an "experience" with Mr Joe and let me tell you I would not work there EVER! As a matter of fact I would rather instruct for a few years then work for him.

And I'd rather fly with someone with DC-3 or 4 time or C-46 time than an instructor.

That was obvious by your first post. Some people think it is ok to be in that kind of environment working for that kind of person, which it looks like you are. And for others it is not, so just a heads up to the "others", in my opinion work where you are appreciated so that you will not lose your passion for flying because someone has taken advantage of you.
And like I said, just my opinion not here to hurt your feelings JAC.

[Rubberbiscuit]

My take on it is this: So you're fresh out of flying school, you mailed out a thousand resumes, made a bazillion phone calls and even a cross country road trip knocking on doors looking for the big break.... but with no luck! What is then wrong with accepting a ramp job somewhere (not only talking Buffalo here) while you vigorously keep pursuing other opportunities? If you can't find a flying job, and the best you are going to do is an $10-12 general labourer job somewhere anyway, you might as well take a ramp job. You wil at least be in the aviation field, meet frinds and might even learn a thing or two. If you do work hard and have good attitude people will remember....trust me! I worked the ramp somewhere after flying school and a lengthy job search, when nobody was hiring and you needed 5000hrs to be a king air captain. I did find a flying job elsewhere and left after a few months on the ramp. However, the friends and connections I made while working that ramp has helped me out more than once over the years. Don't accept a ramp job and throw in the towel on everything else... you might just get screwed. But if the choice is between working the ramp somewhere loading airplanes, fuelling etc and working at Wal-Mart.... I say work the ramp

[C-GGGQ]

You most likely don't have to move to the opposite side of the country to work at walmart though. Moving costs a lot. If you are going to take a ramp job just to keep looking don't move for it.

[bob sacamano]

No to slavery.

[Carrier]

Quote: “........just let him/her go flying with their 7 hour float rating... no, you work the dock and swamp as much as you can for the summer... then next season,.....”

That just proves the poor quality of so many operators. Everyone involved in flying SHOULD know that skills and knowledge decay if unused. The logical time to put a pilot to work flying is right after they have just obtained or renewed a float rating, instrument rating, PPC or whatever. Their skills and knowledge will be pretty sharp and form a good base to build real experience on. Instead so many thoughtless operators use a new “pilot” as a cleaner or navvy for months and then wonder why the person makes a mess of it when eventually put into a plane.



Quote: “But if the choice is between working the ramp somewhere loading airplanes, fuelling etc and working at Wal-Mart....”

Anyone whose work skills, attitude and capabilities are suited only to jobs of the Wal-Mart level would be a menace in a cockpit!

[Rubberbiscuit]

You most likely don't have to move to the opposite side of the country to work at walmart though. Moving costs a lot. If you are going to take a ramp job just to keep looking don't move for it.

I can only speak for myself, but I was 23 single and could fit all my belongings in my vehilcle so moving was a non issue. Would I recommend someone sell their house and move their wife and 3 kids to work the ramp on the other side of Canada? Absolutely not!

Quote: “But if the choice is between working the ramp somewhere loading airplanes, fuelling etc and working at Wal-Mart....”

Anyone whose work skills, attitude and capabilities are suited only to jobs of the Wal-Mart level would be a menace in a cockpit!

What kind of a statement is that? tell that to all the laid off or out of job pilots from AC, C3 etc that over the years were forced to drive taxi cabs or work at home depot while waiting for the industry to pick up. I guess they didn't deserve to be driving those A320/330/340's in the first place! Let me clarify for you. Wal-mart was just a randomly picked job that requires no education. So please enlighten me then.... what kind of lucrative positions would someone with a high school diploma and a commercial pilots license or an ATPL in their pocket be entitled to have??

[raven54]

According to me, and other dudes I work with (senior skippers from BA), Joe is a dick and Buffalo is a joke....Stay away(unless you get on the water bombing action ). I know know other dudes will disagree but I know of too many peeps getting fucked from this operation.

[phillyfan]

If companies in the north brought 200hr kids up to the NWT in the heart of winter and put them to work right seat on a DC-3, 9 out of 10 would quit in the first month and the company would go bankrupt training new people. Bring guys up and either bond them or make them prove they can handle it. Thats the way it is and should be. Don't like it don't do it. Stay home and keep living in mom and dads basement. But in 6 months when the shitty economy sends aviation into another tailspin your gonna wish you had a foot in the door somewhere. In the past week a few companies up north have started the layoffs already. If you are a 200hr pilot and can find a place that will put up the cash to hire and train you sight unseen. Go for it. I would'nt hold my breath though.

[Just another canuck]

Everyone involved in flying SHOULD know that skills and knowledge decay if unused. The logical time to put a pilot to work flying is right after they have just obtained or renewed a float rating, instrument rating, PPC or whatever.

A 50 hour float course... maybe. But a 7 hour float rating. I don't think they really have any skills at this point. They have some very basic knowledge on float flying... that's it. They need to spend time swamping. If they prove they're cut out for they job, they can fly the following season.

If companies in the north brought 200hr kids up to the NWT in the heart of winter and put them to work right seat on a DC-3, 9 out of 10 would quit in the first month and the company would go bankrupt training new people. Bring guys up and either bond them or make them prove they can handle it. Thats the way it is and should be. Don't like it don't do it. Stay home and keep living in mom and dads basement. But in 6 months when the shitty economy sends aviation into another tailspin your gonna wish you had a foot in the door somewhere. In the past week a few companies up north have started the layoffs already. If you are a 200hr pilot and can find a place that will put up the cash to hire and train you sight unseen. Go for it. I would'nt hold my breath though.

Exactly...

According to me, and other dudes I work with (senior skippers from BA), Joe is a dick and Buffalo is a joke....Stay away(unless you get on the water bombing action ). I know know other dudes will disagree but I know of too many peeps getting fucked from this operation.

Getting fucked by this operation... why, because they don't like working hard or they don't like the cold or they have to get to the plane at 5 am... I happen to know a few guys that got "fucked" by this operation. One truly was a good guy and would have got checked out but chose the company down the road, so I guess he didn't get fucked. But the other two were snotty, lazy, whiny shits. They got out and bitched about how much a dick Joe was and the rest of the crew there. They didn't like getting dirty and busting their ass.

Anyone who knows how to work a computer can figure the Buffalo atmosphere out before they go there. A person should know if they can hack it or not... it's an old-fashioned hard ass place. It's not somewhere to cruise by until you can get something else. Don't like hard work... don't work for Joe. Simple.

[C-GGGQ]

A 50 hour float course... maybe. But a 7 hour float rating. I don't think they really have any skills at this point. They have some very basic knowledge on float flying... that's it. They need to spend time swamping. If they prove they're cut out for they job, they can fly the following season.

explain how swamping improves your flying skills

[Just another canuck]

A 50 hour float course... maybe. But a 7 hour float rating. I don't think they really have any skills at this point. They have some very basic knowledge on float flying... that's it. They need to spend time swamping. If they prove they're cut out for they job, they can fly the following season.

explain how swamping improves your flying skills

Well... first you observe, then they let the PIC lets you fly. Maybe a circuit or two here and there when able.

But never mind, just give the 7 hour float guy the 185. Actually, that's not fair, give him the Otter.

And Joe should implement a new Seneca grad program, where all his FO's are straight outta Seneca College. But they should do their PPC in Toronto and Joe should also let them rotate.


Whatever, I don't care... I don't want the dock job or ramp job.

[young grasshopper]

explain how swamping improves your flying skills

I suppose one could ask how being an FO improves your flying skills as well. Some of the best "tricks of the trade" I learned were by swamping for some old crusty guy on a turbo otter, sitting right seat to a guy with a ton of time under their belt, or watching a guy dock a caravan/twin otter/turbo otter/185 with a stong wind outta any direction...I'm in the left seat now, and I'm still learning a lot by watching other guys fly. Pay attention while you're swamping and you might get the odd non-rev trip outta him/her...that'll improve your flying skills I'd imagine!

[Doc]

My point is really simple. If you need a pilot, hire a pilot. If you need a loader, Hire a loader. And pay the union rates. That's fair. That way, the loader will load without bitching about not being a pilot, and the pilot will learn more, faster, by actually flying. What a concept.

['effin hippie]

Blah Blah Blah.

Doc. You know who is taking your message here to heart? All the 'dumbed-down' youngsters with an over-developed sense of entitlement that you are complaining about in another thread. I would venture to say that the vast majority of new pilots out there have no idea how to operate a Herman, or properly care for and operate any kind of machinery; they just don't come from that kind of back-ground, as is pointed out in the 'dumbing down'.
The fact is that ramping etc, is a well-established way for a new entry to gain the confidence of an operator. I'm not trying to defend the Buffaloes out there. There should be an agreed upon time frame for advancement, and the pay should be decent. And anyone with two neurons to rub together should be willing to drop the ramp job if someone offers them a seat.

But ramping is not 'slave labour' or 'indentured servitude' or immoral or wrong or whatever other pejorative appellation you can come with. It is an unpleasant but legitimate route of entry; there are lots more new CPL's than there are jobs out there, what would all you anti-rampies suggest employers do to select the best candidate? Best interview performance? Maybe the guy with most friends already working there? Russian roulette? I know: the guy who bought his PPC already - there's a good one.
What's wrong with giving someone the chance to stand out on the merits of their work ethic and attitude?

This debate lights off every few months on here, and I can never resist, its true. But we live in a world of compromises, like it or not, and I think you guys who are trying to suggest ramping is an absolute aviation sin, along side cash-up-front bonds and buying your own PPC and doing the trip the other guy just cancelled for weather are just muddying the waters to no effect. I suggest to you that you do have significant influence over the culture of our industry, at least as opinion-makers, and you remind yourselves of the qualities that are desirable in the youngsters entering our profession. I for one, will take the guy willing to get his hands dirty and swallow his pride for a little while.

ef