Police taser man in diabetic shock

[KAG]

I attended a company meeting concerning similar event at Borek during crew change season a few years back. Long story short, police were called upon landing at YEG for a person who looked, acted, smelled drunk and was combative. Police arrived, tased him a few times (If I remember correctly it was 7 times!) before they realised something might be wrong other then being drunk. Opps he was in diabetic shock.
Funny that one didn't make the news.

[Nark]

I'm sorry CPL_ATC, this isn't a foreseeable incident, hence the response by police.

During my short "career" with the RCMP 95% of all calls were alcohol related. Keep this in mind, when you pull over someone, who is acting intoxicated. Not obeying what the police instruct you to do, is resisting. Can you see where I'm going with this?


Had this man not receive any treatment, would be a police bashing / news worthy event.

Mistakes happen, thankfully this man does not have bruises or cuts for the next several weeks from an ASP or baton. Imagine this same event happening in the days before Tasers?

[Wilbur]

Why were the cops called rather than an ambulance for the guy in diabetic shock on the Borek flight?

[C-GGGQ]

They didn't know he was in shock till after. As KAG said he looked drunk, smelled drunk, and was combative. Thats a police call not an ambulance call

[Wilbur]

Shouldn't the Borek people have been goddamned sure what they were dealing with before calling the cops on a sick customer? What sort of cold hearted people are employed in aviation, or were they just too stupid to recognize someone in medical distress? Tell us Cpl, what would you have done?

[flyinggreasemonkey]

Yes, please cpl, enlighten us.

Would you have patted him on the back asking if he was going to be OK? Diabetic shock and drunkeness both look the same initially to an officer. If I was the officer, I'm not going to risk getting attacked in order to get close enough to see the subtle differences.
And what is stopping a drunk guy from lying and telling the officer he or she is in physical distress to get out of a ticket or arrest? Next thing you know, an officer is trying to survey the person to see the subtle differences between intoxication and diabetic shock and the person pulls a knife or gun on the officer. What would you do then, cpl?

[niss]

What would you do then, cpl?

He would have given them the care bear stare.



But if 10% of the stares have 50% more love in them then they are supposed to he will request an investigation.

[Whisky 1]

If you have never been in a situation where you wished that a taser were an option then I suppose it's a free country. I'm happy you have an opinion

I'm sure that the officer regrets the use of the taser on a person in diabetic shock but he isn’t a Doctor and he was put in a situation where he had to make a decision just like pilots. Not every decision is the right one except there isn’t a public audience in the cockpit.

Tips on how to avoid the taser:

Behave, be a parent, ask for help, be productive think ahead, be an adult, try to avoid bad situations, control your temper, stay off of drugs, take care of yourself, ask your government to begin funding Mental Health Programs again, don't be combative or assaultive, if you are traveling with health problems don't travel alone, know your international destination expect delays and expect the culture and language to be different from where you came from. Be cool. Or don't call police they might have a taser. Just handle the situation your self and see how that goes.

Some taser / police related comments that should be brought to the publics attention:

Of course this is my opinion. You can be your own person I don't have a problem with that but be educated. Getting your facts from the media and accepting it at face value is weak

1. The voltage does not kill people the Amperage does so the test results are a media smoke show.

2. The media has made it sound as if all cops have a taser. Not true, only a hand full.

3. People have adverse reactions from pepper spray, and hitting someone with a baton could also result in death yet they remain out of the spot light.

4. Cops are not trained to disarm people only some self defense.

5. All situations are unique, if your not there you shouldn’t comment.

6. Cops want to go home to their families without injury.

7. Officers are trained to make quick decisions in dynamic situations with a huge amount of responsibility. (Kind of like flying passengers) and believe me it is in a cop’s best interest to cause as little injury to a person as possible. The results of crashing a cruiser, chasing a suspect until someone gets hurt or an investigation into a persons death is the last thing a cop wants for both them selves and their family. No cop wants someone to die. The tasers use is not the main reason for a person’s death in any of the cases. I would agree it might be a catalyst.

8. The Taser is not meant to be an alternative to the pistol. However if an officer is in a situation where they believe that serious bodily harm or death is possible a bullet is the option. The use of force is based on an officer’s perception of the situation. There are many situations where a taser is extremely effective. If you could just ask every person to display his or her current drug binge, medical history current mental and health condition it would be so much easier.

9. If the police are called to a situation because of someone’s behavior then this is outside of the societies "norm" and you can never predict the outcome. Sometimes it doesn't go as planned no matter how much training a person has.

10. Excited delirium - Existed long before tasers - Look it up, make your own opinion, I know you will anyway.

And if you are sick of the Aviation roller coaster, broke and staring at a hotel room wall wondering how your family is doing, police forces are hiring across the country. You can even get tasered for fun!

[flyinggreasemonkey]

Very nice post, Whisky.

cpl, print that out and put it on your wall by your computer. Read it twice next time you want to accuse police of stepping over their boundaries.

And if you still disagree, give the RCMP a call and prove to us all that you can do better.

[Check Pilot]

cpl_atc

I'll put it bluntly; if anyone here on this thread is "fucked" as you put it, it's you.

Your remarks indicate that you obviously have some anger issues that you should consider dealing with, especially if you are an ATC person working our skies.

Are your intense and vitriolic attacks on the police and enforcement an indicator that you may have had some past dealings that did not turn out very well for you? Would you be willing to share those times with us, or are you unwilling to truly be unable to explain your absolute disdain for the conduct of the police based solely on a couple of unfortunate incidents that a lot of cops undergo on a daily basis across the country anyways? Or are you susceptible to the usual CBC crap that hates anything cop or "law and order" (or conservative) anyways? If so, you might want to consider some help for an issue that folks would like to see you as becoming a normal person in your community.

How else can anyone here not think that you may have done something that had negative consequences for you that might have made you so bitter towards the cops.

[C23flyer]

First, I do think Whiskey 1 makes a valid and constructive point around how to stay out of trouble. Unfortunately this does not address the poor bastard with a good history of health, and for the first time suffers a diabetic seizure, happening to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps this raises a question about changing the approach to anyone with symptoms of alcohol use. Would EMS be any better if they were first on the scene? Drunkenness is as much a medical problem as it is a public nuisance.

Second, I think cpl_atc is not out of line in his criticism of the police, especially our national force. As a structure, it is in need of some SERIOUS changes, top to bottom. The mismanagement of the taser situations is only one element of a much larger issue. The attacks are not leveled at the officer on the beat. Many of Canada's finest, if not in Afghanistan as soldiers, are here in police uniform. But they're also on the bench, in the hospitals, and behind the wheel of a bus. We're all responsible for the welfare of even our neediest and out of control members of society, and if we are complacent enough to allow the police to manage that for us, without being critical, it won't be long before the powers of the police begin to bump up against the very soft limits that conceptually are in place for them. You can imagine the rest.

[...]

I sometimes find it..."challenging" to agree with some of cpl_atc's views on different topics...but this one we both agree on and agree strongly.


-------break break----------------

Mistakes happen, thankfully this man does not have bruises or cuts for the next several weeks from an ASP or baton. Imagine this same event happening in the days before Tasers?

Hey Nark, let me ask you how you would react to this letter if it were sent to your home around this time of year @ Christmas;

Dearest Mr. and Mrs. Nark,

Due to an incedent/accident where a snow plow recieved instructions to NOT cross onto an active runway....but did, is the reason why your son is now dead. Sorry, mistakes happen.

Do you think you would not be looking for those responsible? If a lowly plow driver can be held responsible...then you better believe a professionally trained police officer(s) that acted in complete unprofessional flagrant miscarriage of police duties will be brought up to the public's attention.

It's one thing to 'zap' a guy once...it's very different to zap them 7 times and still get the same result after every zap. It kinda proves that there ARE idiots everywhere...no matter which end of the Taser gun they are at.


"Policemen so cherish their status as keepers of the peace and protectors of the public that they have occasionally been known to beat to death those citizens or groups who question that status.”
~David Mamet (American Playwright, b.1947)

[Cat Driver]

There can be no better proof of the RCMP being corrupted at the top than the example Canada got when their top people outright lied about what happened at Vancouver Airport, the citizen who produced the video should be given a medal for his contribution to this fellow citizens.

[C-GGGQ]

Would EMS be any better if they were first on the scene? Drunkenness is as much a medical problem as it is a public nuisance

However you don't call an ambulance to get rid of an aggressive/ violent drunk (see Borek post). Drunkenness can only realy be called a true medical emergency (which is why you call an ambulance) if it has gone to the point of alcohol poisoning. Drunk and alcohol poisoning are quite different.

[Nark]

Birddog:

http://www.dictionary.com -> "context"


Momma Nark would probably be pretty upset if I died at the hands of a snow plow. However comparing my untimely death to a man mistakenly tasered because he presented all the signs of an intoxicated person is just a smidgen different.



From your forum demeanor, I am assuming you are a pilot and can appreciate that as a pilot you will have to make a decision. That decision will either keep alive or kill you and perhaps others. As a pilot I have only made that type of decision only once in my flying career. I can only hope you have had less.

Now, I'm only a part time pilot as you may know, and my other full time job requires me to make these types of decisions on a more frequent basis. I have had other peoples lives in my hands and my decision(s) have kept those people alive.

In all these decisions I have made, time was not a luxury. Google "decision making" and a plethora of philosophies will pop-up for you to disseminate.

I have also been in the shoes of a police officer as an Auxiliary Constable during my time in Thompson, MB and to a smaller extent in Stony Rapids, SK. I also have a degree in Criminal Justice, so my opinion (ever so arrogant at times) on RCMP and police practices come from experience.

I can immediately tell by your writing style that you don't understand how escalation of force works.

This is the approved method I would use in combat:

Shout - "Stop" "Kiff" (arabic)
Show - point my weapon at the threat
Shove - If they are close enough I would use my weapon to push them back
Shoot - If it called for it I would apply 4.6 lbs of pressure to my trigger and would continue until the threat is dead.

I am not required to go through each step before shooting to kill, it is a decision (that word again!) I had to make on the spot.

Police departments put "shock" after "Show" and before "Shove" because the whole idea of the taser is to avoid a fight or a dead suspect.

[Old fella]

It only appears as a cause of death where police are involved in restraining agitated individuals. The term has no formal medical recognition and is not recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. There may also be a controversial link between "excited delirium" deaths and the use of Tasers to subdue agitated people.

CPL-ATC has a point and is correct. This term(excited delirium) has no medical references and it has been noted this term only comes up in relation to taser use/misuse not through any medical diagnostic procedure(s)