Summit Air

[jspitfire]

Great to hear that everyone is alright.

Yes, FYEV was their newest Dornier. Here's a picture of it shortly after they got it in the summer:

[stuckmike]

for those of us that choose to fly in the north I gotta say I'm quite offended

Well, roger, sorry if I offended you. It seems a guy can't post anything in this forum without offending/enraging/making sad/slandering/slighting someone....as I only recieved one semi-flame, I think that's pretty good odds.

I also choose to fly in the north, for the same reasons you stated, it is challenging and can be ruggedly beautiful. It can also be quite unforgiving.

You must agree, for the majority of pilots out there, the North is for the experience only. So let's all try to pass along good habits, decision making and promote IFR approaches at night especially into the dreaded "black-hole" environment.

On another note, I know a few guys who drive the Knob, they all seem to enjoy it...... except the lack of an autopilot.

[Cat Driver]

decision making and promote IFR approaches at night especially into the dreaded "black-hole" environment.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch calling it " dreaded " or does that kind of flying require some super human kind of driver?

[fogghorn]

I dont know what the big deal is, its a night vfr approach, does it take a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to figure out how to fly a 3 degree glide slope? Lets see now , a mile from the tdz we should be at about 300' agl, I wonder what we need to be at 1.5 How's ole tator tot doin these days.

[godsrcrazy]

So when did VFR regulations change from 3 miles to 1 mile in blowing snow being called legal VFR ??????

[Redneck_pilot86]

When every company operating up here has the ops spec to make it legal.

[Cat Driver]

I remember some interesting approaches into Cambridge in the 3's and 6's when there was only an NDB for the approach.

The weird thing about it though is we managed to always either land or miss even without " ops spec's ".

[Just another canuck]

When every company operating up here has the ops spec to make it legal.

Can you explain how this would apply? Cambridge has weather and approaches... this doesn't make sense to me. I flew there, not for long, but never heard this before. If the weather was below VFR minimums, we still had to get a special or we filed IFR.

[Liquid Charlie]

I can't say that this is the case here but looking at loads I'm sure I'm not too far off. Throughout the years of poking around that area we were always coming in contact with guys flying IMC at altitudes plus 500 -- I asked several guys why -- reply was we are VFR -- ok - now I interpret that as meaning we are unable to carry IFR fuel so we plan VFR flights and there you have the underlying problem - stooging around the Arctic on VFR fuel because that's the only way you can legally carry the load - YRB to YCB -- 500 miles of FA - no place to go and relying that cambay will hold -- not in my wildest psychedelic flash backs --

Carriers have to accept this and stop forcing guys into this kind of crap and we as pilots have the responsibility to say "no" and leave part of the load that gets you to destination with IFR reserves.

The big relief here is that everyone survived and unless I am completely off the mark there are a couple of guys now that have accumulated several thousand hours experience in just a few minutes.

Oh ya -- wonder if there was a RAD ALT in that airplane

[frozen solid]

[/quote]

The weird thing about it though is we managed to always either land or miss even without " ops spec's ".

Not everyone, all the time, Cat. I believe you did, 'cause you're still here. But there's lots of scrap mixed into the gravel on the lead-in to those runways up north. Sometimes you can see the trail of junk still pointing towards the NDB and sometimes it gets broken up and mixed with the fill when the runway gets extended but there's lots of it.

[Cat Driver]

Oh ya -- wonder if there was a RAD ALT in that airplane

I was wondering the same thing L.C.

Is the accident rate less now than in the past frozen solid?

I know a lot of drivers from that era who managed to fly a long time and never busted one up due to missing the airport on touch down.

One would hope that with all the modern aids for navigation and the modern turbine airplanes the accident rate would be way less than thirty or forty years ago...but is it?

[godsrcrazy]

When every company operating up here has the ops spec to make it legal.

WOW i guess i have been out of the north to long. Never thought i would see the day that an ops spec could over ride an MOT rule like 3 miles and 1,000 feet to 1 mile and 200 overcast being legal night VFR.

I have never heard of this i would tend to agree more with liquid charlie. Thank god they didn't kill anyone doing this.

[Just another canuck]

ops spec could over ride an MOT rule like 3 miles and 1,000 feet to 1 mile and 200 overcast being legal night VFR.

This is what I was getting at.

When every company operating up here has the ops spec to make it legal.

Could you explain that a little better.

And to answer your question LC and Cat, all the other Knobs had Rad Alt's in them... can't say for sure about this new one though.

[Canuck]

Aside from the details here which none of us may be able to confirm,

I have a lot of respect for all flying in the north. For some reason though, it seems to be the only place where some feel they can blatantly go against limitations and regulations. Certain people seem to push this and ruin it for others in that it can become some type of a standard. Sure you'll probably be alright for a while but by continuing to operate in that type of envelope and exposing everyone to risk, its a matter of time until something happens.

Not sure who some think they could be helping or impressing by breaking manufacturers proven limitations or air regulations, considering they are all there clearly for our own protection.

Cheers to the guys who stand up and do things properly, respect the rules, their crew members and passengers, not trying to act like test pilots everywhere they go.

Other than this, I have heard nothing but great things about the company.

Thank god everyone was alright.

[polar one]

fogghorn

I dont know what the big deal is, its a night vfr approach, does it take a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to figure out how to fly a 3 degree glide slope? Lets see now , a mile from the tdz we should be at about 300' agl, I wonder what we need to be at 1.5 How's ole tator tot doin these day

wow...you are one impressive pilot...bouncing around in the black, black blackness, wind drift. blowing snow..middle of the night..and you, can figure out a "3 degree glide slope", .....but maybe its not as hard to do it on flight sim as it is to do it in real life, particularily if you have a real strong wind and decide on a little different decent angle

done the approach in to cambridge many times in the past and into lots of other places up there.. in similar condtions it got my undivided attention, and I dont think there are to many out there who have actually done it that are as blase about it as you...guess we are just not the superior aviator and mathmeticial genius you are.

I dont expect this crew is feeling all that good about some of their flying or decisions that night, so how bout we cut them a little slack for now.

All one has to do is read some cadors about CFIT to recognize how really easy it is to become distracted and forget to fly the plane. In a two crew airplane only one, BUT one, should always be flying the plane.









c

[Unknown]

edited two times due to the fact I have more class than to assume anything that happened on that night. Maybe give it some time before all you arm chair pilot hero's decide what went wrong that night.

[Cat Driver]

edited two times due to the fact I have more class than to assume anything that happened on that night.

Assuming and wondering what went wrong are two different things.

Maybe give it some time before all you arm chair pilot hero's decide what went wrong that night.

Of course you realize you yourself might be guilty of " assuming " we are all arm chair pilot hero's.

[ftp]

godsrcrazy:

WOW i guess i have been out of the north to long. Never thought i would see the day that an ops spec could over ride an MOT rule like 3 miles and 1,000 feet to 1 mile and 200 overcast being legal night VFR.

"SPECI CYCB 130837Z 30014KT 1SM -SN DRSN OVC020 RMK SN1SC7 VIS VRB 3/4-1
1/4"

Well, I read that as 2000' overcast. Anyways, I agree I don't know of an ops spec that can get your night vis minimums that low for VFR.

But, how many times have we all operated into an airport and canceled IFR for a more efficient VFR arrival when they were calling a 1000' ceiling but the airport was clearly visible from 10,000'? Or how may times (for us who don't fly in the north) have we seen an airport from 4 miles back but the vis was below the approach ban, so we reported the field (and actually had the required vis) and continued?

My point is, we weren't there, so while we can speculate on what we think are safe practices and our own methods of staying safe, it's not right for us to make judgments on the crew with such little info.

[KAFUFO]

Glad to see you'll let these guy's get roasted but no one can say anything about JAZZ

[grimey]

people (including mods) said plenty negative about the jazz flight, moron. It got locked by jc when the whole thread turned into nothing but a bitchfest between Doc, Cat, and a few others over who was an idiot because they hadn't had a gear up landing yet.

Of course, you'd have to understand English to know that.

[Brown Bear]

While I may well not be the brightest in the forest. Spend more time fishing than flying. But after reading this story twice, it would appear to me that this airplane landed way too early. Perhaps they were both looking out the window? Not much to see.

[FL020]

whoever wrote about approach bans........think north of 60...???? no bans?

[Brantford Beech Boy]

whoever wrote about approach bans........think north of 60...???? no bans?

sure there is. The only difference north of 60 is that ground viz does not impose an approach ban. RVR and Runwy viz are still governing north of 60.

BBB

[Doc]

My only memory of Cambridge Bay was my co-pilot eating hot mushroom soup out of a barf bag while we taxied out, the morning after demolishing more alcohol than we should have. The FA stuck her head in the door, witnessed the guy drinking the warm soup from the bag, and promptly lost her breakfast. I was laughing so hard I couldn't taxi, and had to stop! You had to be there.

[countryhick]

Now thats funny!!