Float Pilots Needed - 500 Hrs + on Water

[floatman]

Now that I have your attention, you're actually only needed to read this for the sake of your livelyhood.

The thread about the "$7000/mnth" job in Alaska got me thinking about what we get paid as bush pilots here in Canada.
I figure the average guy driving a Beaver is around $4000/mnth for 220-240 hours worked.(Basically $16/hr straight up, with no benefits and a season of 5-8 months).{ Feel free to reply with other wages/hours worked.}
I decided to compare my wage with some of my friends and family who work in other occupations.
Some examples: Forklift Driver @ a union shop gets $23/hr with time and a half over 44 with double time on sundays. (not to mention FULL benefit pakage) 60 hour week would gross about $6600 for the month.
Then there is the guy working at the Shipping Department @ a union shop who works 48 hours a week for a gross of about $5000 for the month with 192 hours worked.(plus, of course the FULL benefit pakage and the year-round employment)
It should be noted here that I have another friend who owns a Landscaping company who pays his unskilled labourers $15/hr.

So it begs to be asked, considering the level of responsibility involved with the respective jobs, Are we being under-paid, or are they being over-paid? and can you even compare them?
I mean after all, these guys got their Gr. 12 education. They are responsible for some equiptment. If they have a REALLY BAD DAY, well some bread may get shipped to the wrong depot or some car parts may get bent.
And I too have a Gr. 12 education, and am also responsible for some equiptment. And if I have a REALLY BAD DAY, 6 people could lose their lives or a million dollar machine could be turned into recycling, or both.

I think a poll is in order to see what we think collectively, as Bush Pilots. (and remember back to what you thought when you read what the guy in Alaska was making, I'm not suggesting we are all worth $8500 CDN/mnth mind you)

I realize that there are all types of pilots reading this thread, but I would appreciate it if only the guys flying floats would repond to this particular poll. ( you other guys are welcome to reply,but before you start slagging on us because we make more in a month than some, remember we work 50-60 hours a week, every week for months on end.)
It is of interest to me to see what the results are. Thanks.

[Northern Skies]

hmmm....... not to bash your point but:

my current job: $1700/month x 12 months = $20400 (40h/wk, unionized, no benefits)

your beaver job quote: $4000/month x 5 months = $20000

Again I dont mean to contradict you, it's a very valid point and as a professional career it deserves better, but hearing people on this forum say that I would make more at Macdonald's sort of makes one expect worse. I was under the impression that I am making more now not flying than I will be for a long time after I start flying as a job (this summer).

[floatman]

Thanks for the reply N.S.

If you are making $10.50 per hour in a union facility, I would have to say that you either have very poor representation or a REALLY unskilled position.

The fact is, being a Bush Pilot, is a profession that requires skill and experience. You start off small, doing relatively "safe" flights on nice days in good weather, then when you get to the point of being a "journeyman" pilot, you are expected to do every flight on not-so-nice days in poor weather, safely.

So how is my position as a journeyman bush pilot different from that of the machineist who makes $26/ hour or the pipe fitter who makes $30/hour or the drywall taper who makes $32/ hour, without , I might add, the responsibility for people's lives?

IMHO, there needs to be an hourly wage standard set. We are blue collar professionals, making wages equivilant to that of mere labourers. (and in many cases, we ARE labourers) If bossman wants me to be available for 12 hours a day, he should be paying me, as a pilot, more than he would have to pay the guy to dig his gardens or clean his pool.

[Northern Skies]

To reply briefly (wings over canada is on soon):

1. Unskilled position? yes. Overqualified? yes. Poor representation? yes. Poor management? yes. "Right job?" no. "Job right now?" yes. Wish I could get it over with and start bush flying? hell yeah.

2. Your entire post above is exactly what I meant by "as a professional career it deserves better." I'm just trying to take an aside and make an observation that this forum usually makes it out to be much worse. When I was training I almost had to live in a tent at the float base, and that is the lifestyle that molded my current point of view. When someone says "it's horrible", a young buck like myself will tend to think much worse than what s/he intended to convey. If the conditions are bad I'll just suck it up and keep at it, so perhaps I've been planning for worse than I have to. So in essence, thank you for putting numbers to the statements. (and, what do you think a prospective dockhand/cessna driver can plan for?)

anyway, gotta go, can't keep John Lovelace waiting.

[floatman]

To my recollection, the dockhands were being paid $2000/ month. Don't know about a Cessna driver...would have to assume $2500-$3000 ??

[compilot]

A union would have to start as soon as a prospective commercial pilot is handed his ticket. Because after investing tens of thousands of dollars these guys are willing to do anything for a seat (including working for free). It is almost impossible to get a raise, because you are disposible. There are a hundred and one guys qualified just like you, waiting to do your job.

Why wait until future pilots get their commercial licenses, why not regulate how many students per year can even attempt a commercial license.

[floatman]

I understand what you are saying compilot. It would require a lot of co-operation amongst the fellowship, however, this union would not be for the hundreds of guys who have a CPL and a float rating, rather for those who have spent some time in the trenches and were marketable as "Bush Pilots", the one's that get to the top half of the resume pile on chief pilot X's desk. That's not to say that the low-time guys would be excluded, quite the opposite. They would be encouraged to join in a junior capacity until which point they had achieved a certain level of competancy...maybe 250 hours on floats (one season)? Then beyond that, they would be categorized into groups... 500-1000 hours...1000-2000hrs...Radial time...Turbine time...and paid according to experience. The union could also be instrumental in securing decent positions for up-and-comers to cut their teeth and enter into the profession.
As far as limiting the number of entries into the CPL system, well, just wouldn't be fair. BUT, making the rating much more comprehensive, with a flight test and written (much like the IFR ticket) might serve to separate the serious guys from the wannabes. And as for the guys who would work for free, well, they won't be around long. I think it's a karma thing.

[DEL]

I believe that much of the problem is that we all don't know what we are worth and we have no way to gauge ourselves. I would suggest that we have some way to know what the going wage for a dockhand, flying a Super Cub, C-185, C-206, Beaver, Otter , Beech 18, Norseman aircraft and any other aircraft used. What is the high, low, what is the average pay and this way we have know where we rate. I will suggest to AvCanada forum owners that we somehow gather this information and post it. Of coarse it would be without names of the persons giving it.
Please comment on this, if it is good idea and how to do it.

[floatman]

There is a "salary" section on this board already. There was some input from DHC-2 drivers.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=5179

Maybe a good idea for everyone concerned to reply with your

1. Wage - type of a/c flown
2. #of hours WORKED per week (not just flying)
3. years of experience (hours on floats)

[DEL]

Just saw this section and it is good. Only suggest that it have a section with break down per plane, with high, low and average pay.

[Beaver Driver]

Just think for a minute what that would mean to the rates the companies would have to charge to pay those kind of wages.

Pilot wage is probly the smallest expense in opperating an airplane.

Assuming:

wage - $3400/month for 5 months flying a Beaver
hours flown - 350 per season

This equals $48.57 per flight hour.

Now go ahead and double the wage to $6800 per month. Most operators claim a Beaver flies 105 miles per hour, so we are talking an increase of $0.46 per mile. In 2001 (the year I'm getting these numbers from) the main trip I did was 220 miles round trip. This works out to $101.20 extra per trip, split this between 4 passengers and your looking at a price increase of about $25 per person. They were already paying $2000 US to go on their fishing trip.

I don't know about you guys, but I think this is affordable

the responsibility for people's lives?

And if I have a REALLY BAD DAY, 6 people could lose their lives

I always figure I'm only responsible for one life. My own. If I'm safe then my passengers are protected by default

[CLguy]

Floatman, I certainly understand your frustration but it is nothing compared the what you would face trying to bring a union into the bush. My career is about half unionized and half non-unionized. Believe me there are pros and cons with both. I started in the bush in the 70's and we talked many a beer away about starting a union and how to stop the flow of losers coming in the door everyday wanting to do our jobs for free. It was happening then, just like it is happening now and just like it will continue to happen.

There are lots of so called pilots running around who have no self worth that think they can fast track the system by selling their dignity. The one option we had was to sit at the driveway and break the knees of anyone who even looked like a pilot.

A couple of things you have to realize is, it would never be enforcable because guys would lie about their pay just to fly a particular aircraft and secondly even if you did find someone who was working for less, what could you do about it, kick him out of the union. Companies would only hire drivers who were not part of the union and that would be another whole can of warms. Would every pilot be required to pay union dues and how much? Who would collect them and how would the money be used? How would the union fight a grievance for a pilot in B.C. when it is based in Ontario or vice versa.

I certainly don't want to rain on your parade and I certainly don't have the answers because we couldn't solve it in the 70's and 80's either.

[floatman]

I'd love to make the big bucks but it is dependent on what the customer is willing and abel to pay. It's tough in today's world of discount travel.

Thanks for your reply medby, and Yes, the world of big commercial aviation is trying to go discount for sure. However, the price of fishing and hunting trips is continuing to go up each year, as is the price per seat flying from point A to B on the west coast.

You say you'd like to make "the big bucks", how about "the fair bucks". Are you worth less per hour than a carpenter?, a mechanic?, a machine operator at a factory? It's not about getting a huge wage for doing a little work...it's about getting compensated fairly for TIME SPENT ON THE JOB.

I see that there are votes coming in on the poll which is cool.
For those that don't believe in unions, would you care to elaborate?
As for myself, I didn't see the need for unions in past years, and may have taken the same point of view.
I think if I had have suggested the " Canadian Commercial Bush Pilot Association", it may have recieved more favorable reponse??

And CL, thanks for the Word from the Wise, I'm sure it's been an ongoing battle, but it's one worth at least talking about.
You make some very good points in your post. It would be a real tough one to manage, especially considering that some guys have no dignity (I think the dignity factor is directly related to the number of hours in the logbook)
Guys are hungry to say the least when they are just starting out, and after a few years in the business, figure out that the numbers just don't pan out as far as hours worked for compensation recieved.

[water wings]

hmmmm. kinda caught in the middle. i agee with various points that everyone made.
I'll just say my stuff then.
1- i made 1500 a month on a C-185 for my first season.
2- 300 taken off for rent (!)
3- 80 - 130 flight hours a months, about 200 - 380 duty time
4- mid range that equals about 4 bucks an hour (1200/ 300)
5- dispatchers made 3000.00 a month, no rent, no taxes, no hard labour, no lives at stake.

Same job on the Beaver, the most made was 2500. a month...
i have been a member of a Union before and run properly with reasonable people at the Helm, work great. Within a descent company, a happy medium can be reached easily...however, unions came to be because of bad companies exploiting their workers...and employees letting it happen.

Let it be known that i never went over my 703 duty times ( really! ) and that despite the pay, it was a good safe place to be.
This season, i plan on askng - and getting- a whole lot more.

If a float pilot's union does come in, i'll sign up and even be on the social committee.

[Intentional Left Bank]

Oddly enough, I think these higher insurance minimums are going to only drive up wages. I see pilots complaining all the time that there are too many pilots and not enough jobs thus driving down wages, but when operators start having to require 250 or more hours on floats, the pool will shrink quickly. At that point, pilots will have only themselves to blame if they accept any but a premium wage.

I know some of the better float operators in Canada are currently paying some excellent wages to their higher times guys, even when calculated based on duty time. Enough to make even many jet jobs a step down the salary scale.

[joebloggs]

Try working for $1000/month ramp. Then once you get flying the pay is still $1000/month with mileage on top, but it still sucks. So annual pay is somewhere in the neighborhood of $22,000/year (first year). I know beaver pilots personally that can make anywhere from $30,000 to $40,000 in a season. If I were you I wouldn't complain too much. Be happy with what you have now, yes it could be better, but it could also be a lot worse.

[floatman]

With 18 votes in, we are almost 2 to 1 in favor of the belief that an organized association of professional bush pilots would be a good idea. The only question is whether or not it could be organized.
I'm quite sure that Wilbur and Orville had their fair share of skeptics as well.
And as for the 6 votes against, not one was of the viewpoint that it "is not necessary", rather a vote against the notion of unions altogether.

As I have stated previously, the idea of unions has not always been popular with me, as I have gotten the impression that they were protecting mediocre workmanship and poor work ehtic in the name of fairness and equlity.
In this case however, I would venture to say that as a group, professional bush pilots are being underpaid for their services and are in need of a set standard as to what is acceptable for time spent on the job.

If you do the math as Beaver Driver did, $48 / hour seems like a good wage, but what is lost is the fact that in the course of flying 350 hours for the season, the average guy is actually working about 1200 hours which, in the end brings his hourly wage down to about $14.50 per hour. (In my opinion, about half of what is acceptable for a skilled pilot) and about what the average guy would make digging gardens or carrying bundles of shingles.

Should we be undercut because we like our jobs and would, on most days do it for nothing?, I think not. ILB made a good point that the insurance companies are requiring more experience these days and it theoretically should drive wages up, but to wait for owners to up the wages I think is naive.
As CLGuy and medby stated, it's an ongoing debate with differing sides and no easy or quick solution, but without a healthy debate and a consensus of opinion, nothing will ever get resolved.

And BTW joebloggs, I am sorry that you find yourself in the position of being the equivilant to a crack whore with a pilot's licence, but you have no-one to blame but yourself. It's guys who take the jobs for $1000/ month plus mileage who are keeping the wages for pilots in the sewer. Get some dignity and go tell your boss that you feel you are being underepaid and would like to review your situation. And...you are not me and you don't know what dues I've paid to this point so save your advice for your fellow rampies who need it. Yes, it will get better, and it no it could not be worse because I refuse to be a whore.

P.S. Please forward the names of the companies paying $6000-$8000 per month so that I can put my CV in. That would stop my complaining for sure.

[Blakey]

Firstly, let me agree with you that anyone who works his (or her) way up through the ranks of the dock hands and the "new guy" jobs in a bush operation, has earned all the money they'll get and more. However...

Secondly, I am reminded of the last time I went to renew my mortgage. I had my pay stubs, a copy of my bank account balance and a list of my RRSPs all contained in one package that I took to the loans officer at the bank. She looked it all over and told me how much they would lend me based on my assets and my income and we signed some papers. Afterwards, she confided in me that she had never done business with a pilot before and that she was amazed at how little I made for a job with such large responsibilities. She summed up by telling me that her husband was an accountant in town and that "he wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for this little money". I thanked her and left but, as I walked back to the car, I thought "yeah, but when I get out of bed in the morning, I'm not an accountant"!

Just imagine what the guy who graduated at the top of your school class is doing at work tomorrow morning. Sometimes it's amazing that they pay us at all!

[Darkhorse]

[floatman]

We make an excuse like that in order to earn very little.
We constantly argue that we will work for nothing because the view is great

These things are true, and what compounds the problem is the lack of any sort of reference with regards to what a pilot is worth at a given stage of his career.
These two links provide some information, but are very broad and don't account for the huge discrepancies between the various types of flying.
http://www.workfutures.bc.ca/profiles/p ... ic&noc=227

http://www.alis.gov.ab.ca/wageinfo/Cont ... 0&NOC=2271

"he wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for this little money".

So do we hold it against the accountant for realizing that he is worth X amout of money and sticking to it.
We can't hold it against him because he is being paid what every other accountant is being paid because there is a set standard and people know what is expected.

....this would be nation wide so that none of these cheap outfits take advantage of those desparate wannabe pilots at their door

This is what I'm talking about people... get over the union word. It's about setting a standard and maintaining a quality of life deserving of ourselves and those who come after us. We are aircraft pilots, and I know each and every one of you is proud to say it.
In here, a "pilot" is nothing special, because we are all "pilots", but everytime you meet somebody and the conversation winds up about work and you divulge what your occupation is, they all say something to the effect of " cool" or "wow" or "don't you get scared?" or " I always wanted to do that" and "so you must make pretty good money ?"

Well, yes, it is cool... and sometimes I say "wow" myself...., and yes, somtimes I do get scared and....lots of people "always wanted to do that"
and you know what I did, and by the way, would you like to hear about how I made $21,000 last year before taxes. But of course you leave the last bit out beacause we are proud and don't want to ruin the gleem in the other person's eye. Meanwhile, he's a real estate agent and made $68K last year and will probabbly back his brand new Tahoe into my 89 honda on his way out and not think anything of it.
I better take a breath... this is a borderline "rant".

[floatman]

So it's a banner year for the Bush Pilot. Jobs abound and they are still screaming for qualified drivers. And what say all of us... are we still gonna tolerate this ... "Salary: TBA" which really means " as little as we can pay cause we need to retire soon." Well I say F.U. I need to retire one day, and I'm not going to be able to do it on 22K per year plus pogy. There is a fact of life and it goes like this.. THERE IS NO FLY-IN FISHING INDUSTRY WITHOUT QUALIFIED FLOAT PILOTS. Now I'm not saying that it's time to give it to "the man" and break his bank.. I'm saying it's time to realize that we are the butter on his bread.
This industry can be compared to a professional sport where the coaches are paid millions and the players make thousands. Yes the coaches have knowledge and conections and invested time and monies.. but they ain't got SHIT without a bunch of highly skilled players. Why not invest in some loyalty from your team and pay them something decent. Why not try keeping your industry going by keeping he backbone of your business paid the same as a factory worker. Will the American tourist stop come fishing beacause his rates went up $10 per head into the pilot's pocket.. I think not.. call it "included gratuity" or whatever the fu** you want.. but pay me a decent wage for my fu**ing skills.

All this ranting is making me thirsty...

[floatman]

Just realized that I ranted in two consecutive posts.. but in my own defense, they are 5 months apart... that's only two-point something rants per year.. not bad by my standards.

[simon]

I quit my job running heavy equipment to work on a ramp. I spent 4 years running a backhoe with only a grade 12 education and on the job experience. After 3 years there I was making $21/hour plus benefits. They were a great company. Now I work in avaition on the ramp, working for another great company, nice people, nice envionment, and almost exactly half the pay as my old job. I don't like unions, never have, but once I start flying I would like to make a fair wage, and I believe that that fair wage should be equal to if not more that what I made as a machine operator. If joining a bush pilot's union meant I could make a decent living, and perhaps make $30/hr like my father the carpenter does, I would join it. Is the whole industry complicated? Yes. Will it be hard to set up a union? Definitely. But it is not too much to ask to be paid fairly, and at some point someone has to stand up and try to make a difference like this gentleman is. I would stand behind him wholeheartedly.

[floatman]

Thanks Simon.. your sentiments are appreciated. It takes a lot of guts to pursue a passion and give up that kind of money.

I will state again for the record, that I have never been a "union man" throughout my life. I have had debates with freinds and family and was always of the opinion that the union was just protecting inflated wages ie. $40+ / hr to drive a towmotor on a sunday, and protecting guys with way-less-than-acceptable performance/attendance records.

The union as designed "...is a continuous association of wage earners for the purpose of maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment." (Webb)
...sounds pretty straightforward to me, but a union of 1 doesn't work and 6 wouldn't have much pull.. if there was to be a difference made, it would have to be a wide-spread, UNITED effort, not for the sake of sayin "yeah.. that's right, we're Bush Pilot's and we're gonna stick it to these owners" more along the lines of " we are professional pilots with speciallized skills, who WON'T be paid less than a guy pushing a broom at GM "

[CLguy]

Simon why won't you say you will stand beside Floatman instead of behind him. There will be no shortage of people willing to stand behind him, but it is the ones standing beside you that really count.

Now this is experience talking because I've been there and done that!!!