IFR minimum aircraft equipment

[xqs-me]

Hey guys, got this student who wants to do IFR trainning on his own a/c, he's only got one operating VOR, what else does he need (in terms of working instruments) to be able to do the trainning in this a/c? ADF? DME?
Only serious responses please.
Thanks

[square]

Ask the CARs. You need more than a VOR though's for sure, you have to have enough nav equipment to be able to shoot an approach to an airport within range if anyone of your nav aids goes offline.

[Hedley]

CAR 605.18 applies:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#605_18

Read this slowly. Over and over again, until you understand it.

Power-driven Aircraft - IFR

605.18 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of IFR flight unless it is equipped with

(a) when it is operated by day, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (h);

(b) when it is operated by night, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (k);

(c) an attitude indicator;

(d) a vertical speed indicator;

(e) an outside air temperature gauge;

(f) a means of preventing malfunction caused by icing for each airspeed indicating system;

(g) a power failure warning device or vacuum indicator that shows the power available to gyroscopic instruments from each power source;

(h) an alternative source of static pressure for the altimeter, airspeed indicator and vertical speed indicator;

(i) sufficient radiocommunication equipment to permit the pilot to conduct two-way communications on the appropriate frequency; and

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

Now, with a single VOR, if it failed, could you still meet the requirements of (i) and (ii) above?

[xqs-me]

Well thanks guys, the student is thinking about adding some extra instruments, I just was not sure about him needing things like a DME, he's getting the ADF fixed and probably Nav 2 fixed, in that case do we need a DME?

Thanks for suggesting to read things a few times, sorry, still working on my understanding skills, but are you being sarcastic? .......if so PFO!!! , if not.......thanks for the advice. Love you all.

[Strega]

we need a DME?

See above post from hedley.

[x-wind]

Maybe you shouldn't be his instructor? If thats what your planing. IFR teaching isn't something you can throw together.. Just saying, might save you some serious grief. Consider this carefully!

Does he have a Glide slope indicator?

And the best bang for you buck would be a GPS that's IFR certified.

[Hedley]

It's important to remember that sarcasm isn't
just an art form, it's a way of life

In my daytime engineering job, I frequently get
customers, phoning me up, and essentially asking
me to do their job. I have no problem with this,
as long as they remember to send me their
paycheque, too - that's the other part of their
job.

P.S. Re-read CAR 605.18(j) again - it is the
concise, definitive answer to your question.

[xqs-me]

Ok, thanks guys

[Spokes]

Hey guys, got this student who wants to do IFR trainning on his own a/c, he's only got one operating VOR, what else does he need (in terms of working instruments) to be able to do the trainning in this a/c? ADF? DME?
Only serious responses please.
Thanks

It seems to me that if you do not know this, and are seeking the answer on an internet forum, you have to ask yourself, "Am I the right person to teach IFR to this person".

I think you should refer this pilot to a proffesional training establishment.

[Strega]

It seems to me that if you do not know this, and are seeking the answer on an internet forum, you have to ask yourself, "Am I the right person to teach IFR to this person".

I think you should refer this pilot to a proffesional training establishment

It seems we have another person on the forum that "gets it"

[xqs-me]

You guys just like to give your opinion and sometimes you don't even know who you're talking to, I have almost 30 years of experience in the airline industry, don't have much experience on trainning though and I admit that, just trying to help a friend of mine who just purchased his first a/c with his IFR rating, I think that in all those years I must have learned a thing or two (maybe, maybe not). But thanks for all your responses. Maybe I'll change my glasses to improve my reading skills. Thanks to all.

[Strega]

How's flying over 500nm to get to a point which is 310nm away from my starting point cheating

Serving coffee doesnt count.

If you are up to proper IFR standards, you should have no troubles know what equipment is required.

[just curious]

Is this aircraft Single or Multi-engined? Most singles seem to cheap out on things like alternate static, and pitot heat. True, he could just break the glass on the rate of climb indicator, but most IFTE's don't like to hear that.

Doing the training on that particular machine may be okay in VFR conditions, using the VOR, and conducting localizer or VOR approaches. That having been said, if the ADF and second navcom are repaired for the ride, I don't see huge issues with the aircraft. That second navcom, is the com working or U/S?

An IFR GPS would be nice once he's actually flying IFR, but the unit if it isn't STCed on that make and model would be a pain to complete in the time it takes him to complete the training.

[xqs-me]

Is this aircraft Single or Multi-engined? Most singles seem to cheap out on things like alternate static, and pitot heat. True, he could just break the glass on the rate of climb indicator, but most IFTE's don't like to hear that.

Doing the training on that particular machine may be okay in VFR conditions, using the VOR, and conducting localizer or VOR approaches. That having been said, if the ADF and second navcom are repaired for the ride, I don't see huge issues with the aircraft. That second navcom, is the com working or U/S?

An IFR GPS would be nice once he's actually flying IFR, but the unit if it isn't STCed on that make and model would be a pain to complete in the time it takes him to complete the training.

Thank you "just curious" for your response, the a/c is a single engine PA-28-161. Nav II will be fixed so we'll have dual VOR's one of them with glide slope. The ADF's working so we well be good to go. No GPS or at least not an IFR one.
I appreciate you taking the time to give a proper response unlike some of the "jerks" who decided to be totally disrespectful and sarcastic towards an "old" skipper like me, maybe it's because of my name "xqs-me", you see I am using my nephew's account since I did not want to create one of my own. I've ran into people like that many times before and to tell you the truth I just feel sorry for them.
Happy flying to all.
Keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down.

[Hedley]

No GPS or at least not an IFR one

Even though it may not have much prestige or legal
status, you would be foolish to fly IFR without at least
a portable VFR GPS, esp if your only equipment is a
bare VOR/ADF.

The thing that puzzles me is that if you're really a grizzled,
greybeard know-it-all as you claim, why are you asking
questions here?

[xqs-me]

No GPS or at least not an IFR one

Even though it may not have much prestige or legal
status, you would be foolish to fly IFR without at least
a portable VFR GPS, esp if your only equipment is a
bare VOR/ADF.

The thing that puzzles me is that if you're really a grizzled,
greybeard know-it-all as you claim, why are you asking
questions here?

If I knew-it all, I would not be asking questions. You see son, in life you never stop learning unless you're an "engineer" cause in that case you "do" know it all. cheers

[just curious]

The thing that puzzles me is that if you're really a grizzled,
greybeard know-it-all as you claim, why are you asking
questions here?

Well, that'd be me, I just ask different questions.

[skybaron]

From my understanding you need 2 pieces of nav equipment and can be a combo of either:
VOR
ADF
GPS (IFR Certified only)

If operating in uncontrolled then you must have at least 1 ADF

[Hedley]

No.

Re-read CAR 605.18 again

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

It's only THREE frikken sentences, people. Do you fall asleep part-way through?

[skybaron]

Okay then....(equipped with 2 pieces of Nav equip VOR)

Let's say your intial arrival requires a VOR approach and you're selected alternate also has a VOR.

On you're approach, the VOR goes unserviceable, or, better yet - one of the two VOR's in the cockpit fails.

Can you still go to the alternate with the other functioning VOR?

(Scenerio would be similar if your alternate had only an NDB approach - which in this case you would require 1 VOR, obviously for your destination, and 1 ADF = 2)

I believe this would satisfy the CARS requirements. But again, if you decide to operate IFR in uncontrolled airspace (G) then the a/c must also be equipped with one ADF regardless of any other nav equipment installed (GPS, VOR/ILS, DME etc)

[Hedley]

if you decide to operate IFR in uncontrolled airspace (G) then the a/c must also be equipped with one ADF

CARs reference for this, please.

[BTD]

Hedley has provided the Car reference for the minimum nav equipment. It really is that simple.

In theory, you might only require 2 ADFs, depending on where you are flying.

[Hedley]

Now that we've beaten this subject to death (or
so you think), let's advance it a bit.

Let's say a file IFR with ONE VOR in severe clear,
and my route takes me along some pretty obvious
geographic references, like a lakeshore.

If the (single) VOR fails, if I can still navigate and
comply with my clearance by following the lakeshore,
no CAR is contravened.

Take it to the next step. I could even legally file
IFR in severe clear in the above circumstance
with NO nav radios at all. No CAR would be
contravened, as long as I avoid IMC, and
I "somehow" manage to comply with the
routing in my clearance.

Can you see now, why I'm at the Tribunal
all the time?

[skybaron]

Hedley - you're right.

I searched high and low for the CARS reference requiring one ADF while operating IFR in uncontrolled airspace, and, after many naps in between, all I could muster up is that it's mentioned in PRO's ground school manual - exam primer. Not to single them out, because the manual is well done, but I've heard quite a few pilots out east mention the same thing.

Now I'm all sixes and sevens.

[Hedley]

Stuff like this often takes on a life of it's own. Everyone
does something - because someone else told them they
had do - and years, even decades later, no one can quite
figure out why.

Ice bridging. Flicker vertigo. Logbook signatures. Ad nauseum.

However. These days, the CARs are online. Anyone with
a computer with internet access can search them (albeit
painfully and slowly).

And unless something is prohibited by the CARs (or
by Tribunal/Federal Court precedent), it is therefore
permitted, modulo CAR 602.01.