Accidents are NOT Okay!

[Doc]

Here we go again. Heaven forbid we should blame the crews. At least until the "facts" come out. All tidy and sanitized. Reports full of warm and fuzzy buzz words so popular in the industry. Reports that come out a year or more after the fact.

But, don't blame the crews. It's not the fault of the crew the aircraft landed a mile of more from the runway. It's not the fault of the crew that nobody was flying when the aircraft landed in a wooded area just after takeoff. It's not the fault of the crew that the airplane entered IMC and rolled itself into a ball on a rocky hillside. It's the fault of the crew that the aircraft failed to stop within the confines of the runway, even if it is long enough for a B52.

It's never the fault of the crew. As their cohorts hasten to point out, these are really nice guys. It just isn't their fault.

At least, not until all the facts are in. Not until the official report is out. The politically correct report. The report written by some person, somewhere, who, knows little or nothing about what happened. Then, and only then, can it be the crew's fault. It usually is.

But, as long as nobody was seriously hurt, it seems to be Okay. I'd just like to know. Who is it Okay with? It's not Okay with the companies that are out the business. It's not Okay with the pilots being laid off as a result. It's not Okay with the insurance companies who have to write the big cheques. It's not Okay with the passengers. Or their families. It's not Okay with me. Why is it Okay with YOU??

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

Doc

Are you mad in your dreams? When you think to yourself is it a yelling voice you hear? At least you're mildly entertaining.

Happy New Year Homes

[phillyfan]

I want what he's having!. Happy New Year!!

[No Conflict]

Drinking and posting leads to a AWESOME night!!!


Happy New Years Doc.

[HS-748 2A]

don't blame the crews. It's not the fault of the crew the aircraft landed a mile of more from the runway. It's not the fault of the crew that nobody was flying when the aircraft landed in a wooded area just after takeoff. It's not the fault of the crew that the airplane entered IMC and rolled itself into a ball on a rocky hillside. It's the fault of the crew that the aircraft failed to stop within the confines of the runway, even if it is long enough for a B52.

Doc, its never the pilot's fault. The examples you have cited are all cases of the aircraft failing to live up to the pilot's expectations.

[Doc]

Just hoping for a safe new year for everyone! Be careful out there.
Happy New Year!!!

[flying4dollars]

I want what he's having!. Happy New Year!!

puff puff pass

[Changes in Latitudes]

Frank, the airing of grievances is a not a post-festivus activity. You were pinned, Festivus is over, save it for next year.

[Unknown]

Here we go again. Heaven forbid we should blame the crews. At least until the "facts" come out. All tidy and sanitized. Reports full of warm and fuzzy buzz words so popular in the industry. Reports that come out a year or more after the fact.

But, don't blame the crews. It's not the fault of the crew the aircraft landed a mile of more from the runway. It's not the fault of the crew that nobody was flying when the aircraft landed in a wooded area just after takeoff. It's not the fault of the crew that the airplane entered IMC and rolled itself into a ball on a rocky hillside. It's the fault of the crew that the aircraft failed to stop within the confines of the runway, even if it is long enough for a B52.

It's never the fault of the crew. As their cohorts hasten to point out, these are really nice guys. It just isn't their fault.

At least, not until all the facts are in. Not until the official report is out. The politically correct report. The report written by some person, somewhere, who, knows little or nothing about what happened. Then, and only then, can it be the crew's fault. It usually is.

But, as long as nobody was seriously hurt, it seems to be Okay. I'd just like to know. Who is it Okay with? It's not Okay with the companies that are out the business. It's not Okay with the pilots being laid off as a result. It's not Okay with the insurance companies who have to write the big cheques. It's not Okay with the passengers. Or their families. It's not Okay with me. Why is it Okay with YOU??

you are one angry little man

[b1ngnx33]

I know who is to blame.

The trees failed to get out of the way.

The runway failed to get under the plane.

The runway failed to grow 1000 ft/second to accommodate the plane's flexible landing system.

The plane failed to ignore the crew's input at the controls/computers.

The weather failed to give the crew absolutely perfect weather.

The crew is perfect. Its the world that is imperfect. Damn world!

[Brown Bear]

you are one angry little man

Are you the same "unknown" who thinks pilots are not to blame for lay offs before Christmas at a certain northern operation on another thread? Sure you are. Just who do you think is to blame? It's Okay to crash airplanes? I'm on the side that it is not Okay. You should be as well.

[Tim]

the good folks at canadian club and i thank you for making me not have to work tomorrow

doc, i'll blame em, but i wanna hear all the details first

[FamilyGuy]

Rationalizing is a very slippery slope.

No one got hurt....this time.

Nothing got bent...this time.

My 2nd instructor always told me to report anything I saw that was in violation. (non-flying instructor). His logic was you never know how many times that guy has gotten away with a close call - and you may prevent the time his luck finally runs out.

Ultimately if YOU turn a blind eye - YOU contribute to any outcome.

I agree 100% with that logic as well as Doc's statements. There are some true accidents - but unfortunatley most are human error of some sort - not always the pilot, but human error none the less.

Those who choose to only look at the outcome choose to roll the dice for the "next time". It's an immature response in my books...maybe a result of a general lack of leadership in the industry.

Like the FSC says, learn from the mistakes of others, you'll not live long enough to make them all yourselves. That also applies to the big picture about what we consider acceptable in the industry - as tough as it may be to say.

True self regulating "professional" organizations have no sympathy for those who operate outside the norms - regardless of outcome. If aviation wants to continue to enjoy it's present freedoms, it had better figure out what it will defend and what is unacceptable. 10 thousand feet..................................................................................

[Donald]

Where's the "Oh well, shit happens" crowd??

[E-Flyer]

Where's cat driver ? he always makes the posts entertaining to watch

[Just another canuck]

Shit happens!!!

[sky's the limit]

you are one angry little man

Actually,

I hear he's hung like a horse....

[Brown Bear]

Heaven forbid we should blame the crews.

What do you mean heaven for bid...? When my best friend in the whole wide world died in a plane crash about 6 months ago the first thought that came into my mind was "OH MAN WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG"

In some way, even if there is a a serious mechanical issue or other issue the pilots and crew all play a part, any accident is a chain of events, the pilot and crew are just one link of that chain, very very rarely are they the only link...

Doc your Rant was not very Doctor like, heck it was not even intern like. It was more infantile (self serving and one sided) but on that note we all have days or moments like those.

So then, you must feel that accidents are Okay? Even playing the "link in the chain" for a moment, isn't the pilot the last "link" in your chain? There are no other links that cause an aircraft to land somewhere near a runway, rather than on it. The only "link" that can prevent a CFIT accident is the pilot. Only the pilot can descend below the surrounding terrain. Only the pilot can push the weather. Only the pilot can run the airplane off the runway. Only the pilot can neglect to fly the airplane.
I know the politically correct terminology that is supposed to deflect blame from the pilot. But (except for catastrophic mechanical failures, which happen, but are really rare, and you know it) it's usually the pilot who is the failed link here.
So, instead of making it personal thing between you and the Doc, why not come up with an alternative answer. If not the crews.....then who?

[black hole]

So: Lets put it this way. When is it "OK" to crash an airpane?

BH

[sky's the limit]

So: Lets put it this way. When is it "OK" to crash an airpane?

BH

Er.... when you've had too much to drink?

[Just another canuck]

So: Lets put it this way. When is it "OK" to crash an airpane?

BH

If you're a terrorist??

[Flying Nutcracker]

So much for that new years resolution...

I'd crash an airplane when it is on fire in the interest of making a positive out of a negative situation, to be read as because it was the lesser of several evils!!!

That would be a pilot induced crash, yes, I'd be to blame, yes, but it wasn't the TRUE cause of the crash! In this case (my example) it would be something mechanical that induced my decision to crash. So is it my fault??? Yes! But if I didn't crash the airplane, the plane would selfdestruct and I would've had a clean name, dead or alive!

But you guys would'nt know this until next year, because the details will not emerge until the final TSB report comes out!

In the mean time you all can speculate as much as you want about wether or not I did the right thing, and, when the answer key to the crossword puzzle comes out, you can all be happy about how many rights you got!

But until then you won't really know, now will you!?!?!?! There's always that ONE word that's questionable isn't it!?!?!?! The ONE word that can screw your whole puzzle!

Ahhh... the excitement!!!

[Just another canuck]

I'd crash an airplane when it is on fire

Didn't a guy in do that in a Navajo years back in Northern Ontario somewhere. Fire in the cockpit... They figured he just drove it straight into the ground just to end the situation ASAP. Guess the flames were too much to bear so he just said "@#$! it!!"

[Doc]

Heaven forbid we should blame the crews.

What do you mean heaven for bid...? When my best friend in the whole wide world died in a plane crash about 6 months ago the first thought that came into my mind was "OH MAN WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG"

In some way, even if there is a a serious mechanical issue or other issue the pilots and crew all play a part, any accident is a chain of events, the pilot and crew are just one link of that chain, very very rarely are they the only link...

Doc your Rant was not very Doctor like, heck it was not even intern like. It was more infantile (self serving and one sided) but on that note we all have days or moments like those.

Sorry to hear about your friend. Was there a serious mechanical issue?

I'm a bit confused how this would make me "self serving" and "one sided". I think pilots are getting really sloppy. Looking forward to a safer 2009. If we all pay better attention, as a group that is, we can have a safer year.

[mattedfred]

Here we go again. Heaven forbid we should blame the crews. At least until the "facts" come out. All tidy and sanitized. Reports full of warm and fuzzy buzz words so popular in the industry. Reports that come out a year or more after the fact.

But, don't blame the crews. It's not the fault of the crew the aircraft landed a mile of more from the runway. It's not the fault of the crew that nobody was flying when the aircraft landed in a wooded area just after takeoff. It's not the fault of the crew that the airplane entered IMC and rolled itself into a ball on a rocky hillside. It's the fault of the crew that the aircraft failed to stop within the confines of the runway, even if it is long enough for a B52.

It's never the fault of the crew. As their cohorts hasten to point out, these are really nice guys. It just isn't their fault.

At least, not until all the facts are in. Not until the official report is out. The politically correct report. The report written by some person, somewhere, who, knows little or nothing about what happened. Then, and only then, can it be the crew's fault. It usually is.

But, as long as nobody was seriously hurt, it seems to be Okay. I'd just like to know. Who is it Okay with? It's not Okay with the companies that are out the business. It's not Okay with the pilots being laid off as a result. It's not Okay with the insurance companies who have to write the big cheques. It's not Okay with the passengers. Or their families. It's not Okay with me. Why is it Okay with YOU??

is this a rhetorical question doc, or are you asking anyone in particular? is the accident in question hypothetical or are you trying to bring back the YYB thread once again?

accidents aren't OK with me if you're asking

the more important question is why did it happen and not whom is to blame