System after system after system...

[Just another canuck]

... do we grab what we can... hasten mankind's demise.... because "what the hell.... it is all going to end badly, anyway"....

Short answer... yes.

All this talk about preserving the planet for future generations... meh. Like who, my great (x20) grand child.... whatever. Actually, I don't think I'll have children anyway and my bloodline will die with me.

I believe in recycling and litterbugs piss me right off but seriously... I'm not about to not warm up my car in Canadian winters and I like long, hot showers. I like these simple pleasures.

[Rockie]

If it is man made how come they can't quantify how much of our actions are causing which percentage of change

Because they're still learning.

If it is man made how come they can't tell us exactly how much longer we have before we pass the point of no return

Because they're still learning.

The fact 'they' can't answer these questions to any degree of accuracy tells me that they are basing their findings on a correlation, correlation does not equal causation.

Based on the weight of evidence they passed the correlation stage a long time ago. We aren't causing all of it but they have concluded man made CO2 is causing a part of it. Back to your first point, they are still learning how much.

Correlation usually comes into play when you first decide where you want the evidence to take you then find the evidence which supports your conclusions.

That might be how you operate. You can't say that about anyone else.

Good for you environmental scientists. Pin a medal on your shoulder and keep on whining. What I don't hear from those scientists is some form of workable solution.

They are "environmental" scientists. That means they study the environment. Solutions have to come from chemical engineers, electrical engineers, physicists and other people who invent things. Driven of course by political will and economic and environmental necessity.

What I want to hear from the algoreans is a timetable. How much time do we have left, and what and how do we make the changes necessary to stop this global catastrophe, can you even prove that we have not passed the point of no return?

You won't accept it then either, but they're working on it.

.You guys need to get your ducks in a row, you've only solved half the problem, and it isn't even the important half.

Recognizing the problem and the necessity for addressing it is by far the most important part, and the most difficult if some of the attitudes expressed here are any indication. Finding solutions once the world puts their efforts to it will come naturally.

[Four1oh]

"Based on the weight of evidence they passed the correlation stage a long time ago. We aren't causing all of it but they have concluded man made CO2 is causing a part of it. Back to your first point, they are still learning how much."

Buuut, what do you say to guys like Birddog who says 'game over'? If humans are only a part of the causal effect, and unknown part, what are you supposed to say to the end-earthers? How do you talk sense into them that the world isn't about to end in the next 100 years, and neither is humanity?

[Rockie]

There are two ends of the spectrum wrt the global warming debate. One end spells armageddon at the hand of humans and the other utterly denies humans have anything to do with it. As with most everything else the truth probably falls somewhere in between the two extremes. There is no credible doubt remaining that we are contributing though, and if we are going to become extinct due to global warming it seem a tad counter-productive to cause it ourselves.

Besides, like I've said many times here eliminating man made greenhouse gasses will have unbelievable economic and social advantages as well. We're going to have to eventually find a replacement for fossil fuels, and it's far better to do it now than when the gun is literally to our head. This is a huge opportunity for industry and they should be embracing it rather than fighting it.

[Four1oh]

I agree, so why isn't the government stepping up and doing things that actually matter, like helping people use less energy in whatever form? Why can't I have some fucking help with the expense of polluting less, in whatever form? I can't believe it took 6 pages to get to this point. Maybe you now understand why there's so many of us who don't appreciate Gore's and Suzuki's gun to our heads. As for your statement that: " eliminating man made greenhouse gasses will have unbelievable economic and social advantages"... Perhaps in a century from now that might be true, but not now. The technology needs to be developed, the hybrids(from whatever industry) need to be produced. People seem to think we need to have the answer now(which won't happen) instead of evolving to the answer. We need to use proven technology to reduce our energy use regardless of the form, rather than a solution for everything now, which, in my opinion, is currently technologically and financially impossible right now.

Is the Prius the answer? no, but it's a start. Is the Honda Civic a better idea than the Prius? you bet your bippy it is... The world still needs trucks too, so what's the answer? Aviation? How about a hybrid fuel instead of instantly going for the gold with an alternative fuel? Evolve people! Change doesn't happen overnight, no matter how much the Algoreans and Suzukanites wish.

[Four1oh]

xsbank I'll quote myself:

except we can't provide the hydrogen for the less energy cost than it takes to get it to your car/plane, not unlike ethanol that the farm lobbyists were so keen to promote.

note that I said 'get it to your car/plane' for costs. To get it to your pump will including production and distribution will be abhorrently expensive. The North American Consumer won't change how they live for costs like that. There's got to be a better way than that.

[Rockie]

I agree, so why isn't the government stepping up and doing things that actually matter, like helping people use less energy in whatever form? Why can't I have some fucking help with the expense of polluting less, in whatever form? I can't believe it took 6 pages to get to this point. Maybe you now understand why there's so many of us who don't appreciate Gore's and Suzuki's gun to our heads. As for your statement that: " eliminating man made greenhouse gasses will have unbelievable economic and social advantages"... Perhaps in a century from now that might be true, but not now. The technology needs to be developed, the hybrids(from whatever industry) need to be produced. People seem to think we need to have the answer now(which won't happen) instead of evolving to the answer. We need to use proven technology to reduce our energy use regardless of the form, rather than a solution for everything now, which, in my opinion, is currently technologically and financially impossible right now.

Is the Prius the answer? no, but it's a start. Is the Honda Civic a better idea than the Prius? you bet your bippy it is... The world still needs trucks too, so what's the answer? Aviation? How about a hybrid fuel instead of instantly going for the gold with an alternative fuel? Evolve people! Change doesn't happen overnight, no matter how much the Algoreans and Suzukanites wish.

You have little understanding of how or why change happens. First and foremost there has to be a will to change, and that is what the people you hate so much have been creating whether or not you agree. Gore and Suzuki have been doing an admirable job raising public awareness. If industry had a shred of forethought they would be developing these technologies as fast as they could because the first ones out of the starting blocks with it is going to make more money than they'll know what to do with. But since industry is apparently blind to the potential and is instead so focused on the quick easy money, it falls on the government to create the incentive. Governments won't do that unless it's what the populace wants. I'd say the tide is turning in that regard.

Early government efforts are inept though I'll give you that. Kyoto was a total waste of time and effort because not a single country could hope to live up to it even if they wanted to, which none of them did. Carbon credits are a flailing, useless embarrassment and the product of minds totally bereft of any real ideas. But nothing is perfect in the beginning, and our society's transition to sustainable, environmentally friendly alternatives to fossil fuels is still in the infant stage.

By the way, in what possible fashion are Gore and Suzuki holding a gun to anybody's head?

[Four1oh]

You have little understanding of how or why change happens. First and foremost there has to be a will to change, and that is what the people you hate so much have been creating whether or not you agree.

I understand exactly how change happens. On one side you have extremists barking for change, and on the other side you have extremists fighting change. What happens in the middle is usually the result. Your buddy Gore and Suzuki are filling in that side of extremeness, which I understand. After all, Greenpeace and their followers couldn't possibly keep the pace they had in years past...

Gore and Suzuki have been doing an admirable job raising public awareness.

Hard to argue that. He/she who screams the loudest usually gets heard, regardless of the message.

If industry had a shred of forethought they would be developing these technologies as fast as they could because the first ones out of the starting blocks with it is going to make more money than they'll know what to do with. But since industry is apparently blind to the potential and is instead so focused on the quick easy money, it falls on the government to create the incentive. Governments won't do that unless it's what the populace wants. I'd say the tide is turning in that regard.

Industry is not as blind as you think. I'll submit to you that industry is far more adept at reading and reacting to public pressure than any government ever could. Money talks, bullshit walks as they say.

Early government efforts are inept though I'll give you that. Kyoto was a total waste of time and effort because not a single country could hope to live up to it even if they wanted to, which none of them did. Carbon credits are a flailing, useless embarrassment and the product of minds totally bereft of any real ideas.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Hey! We agree on something! I'm glad you see Carbon Credits for the frigging joke they are, I have hope for you!

But nothing is perfect in the beginning, and our society's transition to sustainable, environmentally friendly alternatives to fossil fuels is still in the infant stage.

Unless, of course, we're totally off course to begin with... just throwing that one out there. To go off course exponentially from the proper start is one thing, but to go exponentially off course from the wrong position is even worse. The IRS system comes to mind.

By the way, in what possible fashion are Gore and Suzuki holding a gun to anybody's head?

I'll keep it simple like I like to do: The world isn't going to end(that's the gun) Suzuki and Gore are spouting that very message(therefore they're holding that thar gun). I submit the gun isn't loaded, so pull the trigger, and I'll call their bluff. Hey maybe they at least loaded blanks, so it'll hurt, but at least it won't kill me.

[Four1oh]

Oh yeah, give it up already with your accusations of being a 'hater'. Just because I have zero respect for Gore, and consider him a massive hypocrite, doesn't mean I hate him, so fucking well give it up already. As for Suzuki, I used to worship the ground he walked on, until he decided to go activist instead of scientist. I lost respect for him to, but it's never too late for him.

[Rockie]

I have little respect for Gore myself because his documentary was as much about promoting himself as it was environmental issues. Plus a lot of what he said is pretty extreme. But his underlying message is sound and he's doing a great job of raising awareness, so he's also doing an extremely valuable service. David Suzuki is a bonafide scientist who also happens to be a public persona. He knows how to get his point across and make the message heard which to me is a good thing.

As for industry, Toyota at least gets it and is proving yet again why they have been eating Detroit's lunch for the past 30 years and will likely continue to do so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_ ... lar_toyota

As the article says it will take years for this car to reach the market, but so what? This technology and others like it is going to take time to develop and refine, but it has to be done and it isn't going to get done all by itself. The "me first I want it right now" generation is just going to have to be patient.