This forum is for non aviation related topics, political debate, random thoughts, and everything else that just doesn't seem to fit in the normal forums. ALL FORUM RULES STILL APPLY.
I bet if you asked an israeli if they thought it was legitimate to try a 82 year old member of the SS as a war criminal they would probably say yes.
So, what is your point?
The point is that there is a big difference between a trial and lobbing rockets at someone...
I'm fairly certain he's referring to the membership of person in the SS many decades ago, then drawing a parallel to Israeli ex-soldiers. Besides, at 23 killed in 8yrs, I think Israelis should be more worried about traffic accidents than some incredibly ineffective rockets.
Boosted has made his point about three times over, you seem to be missing it for one reason or another.
Besides, at 23 killed in 8yrs, I think Israelis should be more worried about traffic accidents than some incredibly ineffective rockets.
Just because the Israelis are better at detecting the oncoming attacks and have an organized civil defense strategy and a network of shelters, and are just better at defending themselves it does not absolve the other side from attempting murder.
And don't for a minute think that if Hamas had better weapons they wouldn't use them. That is one of the reasons of the locked down border. To prevent Hamas from having better weapons.
This a bit like asking for clemency by a convicted murderer, of his parents, because he is an orphan.
Dushan wrote:
Just because the Israelis are better at detecting the oncoming attacks and have an organized civil defense strategy and a network of shelters, and are just better at defending themselves it does not absolve the other side from attempting murder.
And don't for a minute think that if Hamas had better weapons they wouldn't use them.
The Israeli defenses have nothing to do with "defending" against short range totally unguided, low-yield ordinance, in this case the Hamas rockets. Recently they have acquired slightly longer range rockets, but still 100% unguided.
As to your second point - of course they would. So would I were I in that position. So would the Israelis... Er, wait, they are.
The Israeli defenses have nothing to do with "defending" against short range totally unguided, low-yield ordinance, in this case the Hamas rockets. Recently they have acquired slightly longer range rockets, but still 100% unguided.
Just because they are unguided, doesn't mean they cannot be defended against. The sirens alert of their arrival, the people hide in shelters.
As to your second point - of course they would. So would I were I in that position. So would the Israelis... Er, wait, they are.
But the Israelis are bad for doing so while you and the Hamas would be good????
Dushan wrote:
The sirens alert of their arrival, the people hide in shelters.
But the Israelis are bad for doing so while you and the Hamas would be good????
Mmm, yes. Lets give Hamas artillery, gunships, and drones... see how effective your sirens are. It's not even worth comparing the two.
In case you hadn't noticed, the situation between the Palestinians and the Israelis is just a little different... One is occupied, oppressed, marginalized, and in some areas, colonized. The other, not so much.
Anyway, enjoy your weekend, I've got a dinner to go to.
I do not and would say that not all palestinians are responsible for the acts of hamas in the same way that all of the citizens of israel are responsible for the acts of their government, therefore civilians in gaza are not legitimate targets and those in israel are.
I don't think that we can have an intelligent conversation if one party to it considers civilians of one country a legitimate target of a terrorist organization belonging to another.
It is undeniable that Hamas purposely hides in populated areas, schools, and hospitals shielding themselves with civilians, hoping, in fact, to provoke civilian casualties. Because the Israelis are better at detecting the attacks and have an organized civil defense strategy they suffer less casualties in body count, but the population still suffers having to be on the lookout for air sirens, spending time in shelters. How is that legitimate? If a 50 year old woman is killed by a Hamas rocket is it justified because 30 years ago she wore an IDF uniform for 2 years?
Apologists!
Dushan wrote:
If you .. here this .. r
I think you mean "hear"?
I bet if you asked an israeli if they thought it was legitimate to try a 82 year old member of the SS as a war criminal they would probably say yes.
So, what is your point?
The point is that there is a big difference between a trial and lobbing rockets at someone...
===========================
The point is that there is a big difference between a trial and lobbing rockets at someone...
...
I don't think that we can have an intelligent conversation if one party to it considers civilians of one country a legitimate target of a terrorist organization belonging to another.
I agree with you-we should switch to ancient aramic to discuss this (:
You raise an interesting philosophic point, though....
Though many tools are available for political purposes, the threat or use of violence attracts those of a more proactive disposition as the simplest way to resolve any conflict or achieve any ends, because its strategies are well-known and weapons easily obtained. When asked to identify alternative nonviolent techniques, people find it difficult to visualise effective methods; moreover, sceptics can quickly raise moral and practical dilemmas to complicate any set of choices until violence appears the easiest option.
Thus, this topic is relevant across a spectrum of causes from those who disagree about social or commercial practices within their local community, to those unhappy with the political regime in their own country, to those who believe that another country is a threat.
Nevertheless, a person or group wishing to use violence as a strategy must overcome objections from both prospective supporters and the other interested parties. No cause will prosper until the majority agrees with the justifications offered for the decision to use force, because all who adopt aggressive strategies require emotional and logistical support from the local community for success.
Hence, the aestheticization process is used to direct the audience's interpretation of events by shifting the values of the lexical words used to minimise consideration of the moral, ethical or other costs. In Nineteen Eighty-Four, George Orwell proposed that the means to achieve complete control of people's minds or their ability to think rationally about the issues at stake is to invent a new language, more primitive and less articulate than current "oldspeak". That is the intention of aestheticization. It seeks to subvert the rationality of the current paradigms through doublespeak and goodthink, and to persuade the majority that the use of violence in the particular context is not merely necessary or expedient, but just and glorious in the prosecution of higher ideals.
Whether the use of violence is or is not justifiable is irrelevant for these purposes. The sole interest lies in the mechanism for the transfer of the particular use from the paradigm of unacceptable into the paradigm of acceptable..
How many tons of ordinance were expended in "shock and awe"? What were the targets? What was the civilian death ratio per ton of ordinance?
If you develop a hand grenade that kills only one civilian per five asshats, does technical superiority lead to a higher morale superiority if your previous hand grenade killed five civilians per five asshats? Are you are not "intentionally targeting civilians" if you deny doing so, but launch ordinance into an urban area with a known probability of five civilian deaths per ton of ordinance ? Four? two?
Can you escape the moral result if you say " I didn't intend to kill civilians, having technically lowered the probability of the number killed- while knowing that that a certain reduced number will be 'collateral damage' nonetheless?
Can you escape the moral result if you say " I didn't intend to kill civilians, having technically lowered the probability of the number killed- while knowing that that a certain reduced number will be 'collateral damage' nonetheless?
So by the same logic since the Palestinians elected their Hamas regime and all seem to stand by and support Hamas they are all parts of the Hamas militancy and their for legitimate targets?
There is a flaw in the parallel here. In israel MILITARY service is mandatory whereas in gaza there is a obvious split between the palestinian authority and hamas,and there is a degree of doubt in the legitimacy of hamas as the elected government. So much so that hamas is not internationally recognized as a political party and the palestinian authority is.
As to the legitimacy of civilians as targets I could go either way and I do have a hard time making the distinction myself. For me it comes down to a few factors.
Firstly, looking at israel where military service is mandatory under whicever government has been elected versus the silent consent the populace of gaza affords hamas.
Looking at those issues I come to the conclusion that there is no mandated support for the warlike activities of hamas, whereas the population of israel is legally bound to support their countries war efforts through conscription. So, I make the distinction that those who live in palestine might be held hostage to hamas' actions however they seem to have the freedom to choose whether or not they take a direct role in the violence, put against those in israel who are indentured to the IDF.
Then I take public opinion and support into my equation. In the beginning of the storm we are in now hamas did enjoy wide support from the palestinian population however there was a recognized group (even before the 'war') that did break and side with the palestinian authority in hopes of a negotiated truce/settlement. I put that against the healthy majority of the israeli state who sided with the idea of an armed solution. Now I see that there are more converts to the way of hamas and the support for the mission in israel which started with a majority of support is growing to near universal acceptance
Finally I take the palestinians inability to either politically or militarily defang hamas. Because of the rift between the supporters of the authority and hamas I have questions whether or not they are terrorized into fearing hamas retribution or whether they silently support the stance of hamas, but there is room for doubt there, much more room than the doubt I have regarding the majority of israels demographic support.
So my conclusion is that on one hand you have a once divided state subservient to the wishes of the minority with arms and on the other side you have a state which has a majority support for an armed conflict coupled with a conscript army of which every citizen is mandated to serve.
Therefore I would have to say that by the criteria I have given myself to logically decide whether I agree with this
So by the same logic since the Palestinians elected their Hamas regime and all seem to stand by and support Hamas they are all parts of the Hamas militancy and their for legitimate targets?
I do not and would say that not all palestinians are responsible for the acts of hamas in the same way that all of the citizens of israel are responsible for the acts of their government, therefore civilians in gaza are not legitimate targets and those in israel are.
And what of the people just under 18 who are not in the military?
You argue that because people once served in the IDF means they are legitimate targets? What about the people in Gaza who used to be militants or Hamas and arent any more? Are they legitimate targets?
How about all the women who took their babies to the top of the buildings to defend a targeted militant? Are these people now legitimate targets? They are defending a militant/weapons etc. What about the children who are undergoing weapons training in Gaza to eventually be militants? Are they legitimate targets as they will be militants?
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She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
Meshaal Intervenes to Stop Hamas-Gaza from Succumbing to a Ceasefire
Saturday, Jan. 10, Day 15 of Israel's Gaza Strip offensive against Hamas, top Palestinian leaders gathered in Cairo for ceasefire talks with Egyptian officials.
DEBKAfile's military sources report that Jemal Abu Hashem, who rarely appears on public, Salah Bardaweel, leader of Hamas parliament faction, and Heiman Ta'a, member of the military wing's command, were allowed to exit Gaza Friday after signaling their willingness for the first time to discuss an unconditional ceasefire.
After traveling to El Arish in northern Sinai Friday, they were flown to Cairo by an Egyptian military plane.
Saturday, they were joined by two colleagues from Damascus, Hamas' senior operations chief Imad al Alami and politburo member Muhammad Nasser. Separately Mahmoud Abbas, Palestinian Authority chairman and head of the rival Fatah also arrived in Cairo.
The Hamas delegates were preparing for their talks on Egypt's ceasefire proposals to begin Sunday with intelligence minister Gen. Omar Suleiman, when their Damascus leader, Khaled Meshaal, dropped his bombshell.
Speaking over Damascus TV, he declared Hamas must fight on until Israel ends its military offensive, withdraws from the Gaza Strip and opens the enclave's crossings. Egypt too must open the Rafah gate. Hamas would never accept any restrictions on its armament – a hint at Israel-Egyptian plans to block the Philadelphi route – and would treat international monitors as an "occupation" force.
Meshaal demanded an immediate Arab summmit which Egypt and Saudi Arabia have firmly refused. Israeli losses were much higher than admitted, he said, adding that Saturday, Hamas rockets had hit Israel's Palmachim missile and satellite base more than 50 miles away.
DEBKAfile's sources report that the Hamas leader's emotional tirade raised suspicions in Jerusalem that he may have obtained pledges from Tehran and Hizballah for a last-ditch operation to save Hamas from collapse. They also noted the widening rift between Hamas-Damascus and Hamas-Gaza, which is paying dearly for Palestinian "resistance."
The Hamas leaders' resort to Egypt's good offices three days after rejecting its proposals came after the failure of the UN Security Council resolution of Friday night, which stressed the urgency of a ceasefire and called on member-states to help "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition and to ensure the sustained reopening of the crossing points…"
Hamas also turned down the UN motion, while Israel said it was "unworkable" as long the rockets kept coming.
Our military sources report that Hamas was preparing to haggle over ceasefire terms, chiefly the opening of the crossing points, to save face, but had come closer than ever before to accepting a pause, any pause, without counter-demands – until Meshaal intervened.
Six developments brought Hamas near to breaking point, our military sources disclose:
1. Desertions are spreading among the 18,000 rank and file and police officers, who were left out in the open to shoot missiles and rockets and fight off Israeli attacks, while Hamas leaders and commanders stayed under cover in bunkers.
Seeing the fading resistance, Hamas' Grad rocket specialist, Ami Mansi, emerged from hiding Saturday and took over a mortar position against Israel troops. Quickly identified, he was killed by an Israeli helicopter missile with two aides. That night, Al Qaeda's Gaza commander, Ghassen Maqdad, was killed in Khan Younes in the south.
2. The Hamas hard core of fighters, estimated at 3,500 before the war, has suffered painful losses - at least 550 men, including high profile operatives. Israeli forces continued to press forward Saturday, disabling Hamas' bunker hideouts, booby-trapped tunnels and buried passages designed to serve as escape hatches and the abduction of Israeli soldiers. Their missile production workshops have been destroyed but Hamas is not finished yet, say Israeli military sources.
Saturday, 12 Israeli soldiers suffered minor injuries.
3. Signaling an intense push ahead, Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets over the Gaza Strip Saturday with this warning: "The IDF will soon raise the level of attacks on tunnels, weapons caches and terrorists. For your own safety and that of your families, keep your distance from places where terrorists are hiding, active and store weapons."
4. The commander of Hamas' military wing, Muhammad Jabry, has lost his credibility after failing to follow through on his vow that Israeli troops would never set foot in Gaza City. Our military sources disclose that as of Saturday, the Gazan capital is virtually defenseless after desertions left Hamas bunkers, defensive tunnels and anti-tank positions unmanned.
Hamas tacticians have decided to deploy their dwindling manpower to maintain the missile and rocket-fire, which began dipping from 40 Thursday, to 30 Friday and 20 Saturday.
5. The southern town of Rafah is in the same dire straits as Gaza City.
6. Gaza's population is increasingly estranged from its invisible Hamas rulers, accusing them of fighting their battles to the last civilian. Hamas has planted booby-traps, weapons caches and firing positions in private homes, so that civilians take the brunt of explosions and counter-attacks.
DEBKAfile's military sources report senior IDF commanders are anxious to build on Hamas' weakness at this moment to step up the tempo of their offensive and finally push Hamas to the wall. Israel will then be placed in position for attaining its targets – an end to Hamas' eight-year missile assault on the South and its ability to rearm as well as the release of the captive Israeli soldier Gilead Shalit.
When the Palestinians were fleeing the Israeli advance towards the Egyptians, guess what they were met with..... Egyptian machine gun fire.... yet no one is protesting or criticizing that, are they?
Thought I would share with you a link that was sent to me from an Arab friend in the Persian Gulf. He's a senior guy with one of the airlines down there. Thought I would show you what the locals are sharing via email in the region.
This will go a long way to promoting good will towards Israel.
I hope what's her face wins the election. 898 dead and 3695 injured seems like an appropriate price to pay.
Let's get back to killing them sand monkees. It's what God wants.
niss wrote:What about the children who are undergoing weapons training in Gaza to eventually be militants? Are they legitimate targets as they will be militants?
You out of anyone is talking? You posted pictures of yourself parading weapons while 'vacationing', or was it a terrorist training camp? Maybe we should forward those pictures and your file to CSIS. After all, you are in aviation.
Anyways, you posted pictures of yourself in israel carrying weapons, and now you're talking about palestinian kids holding weapons????? Dude, you keep on digging yourself lower and lower.
Those are your israeli kids being trained.
Howbout israeli settlers now. The ones that get parachuted from all over the world, into palestinian lands, and they are ALL armed by the american tax payer. Here are some pictures of israeli 'civilians'.
Don't he look like he belongs in al qaeda?
Here is how these settlers treat their palestinian hosts.
A still image from a videotape shot by a Palestinian woman on a recorder given out by the Betselem human rights group in Israel on 17 June 2008 shows club-wielding Jewish settlers as they attack a Palestinian farmer in the area of Susiya outside of Hebron in the West Bank on 08 June 2007.
Two Jewish settlers were arrested for attacking the Palestinian farmers. A Palestinian woman in her late 50s was badly wounded in the attack, and her husband and another relative were also battered. EPA/BETSELEM
Howbout those apples? or as you would say, tapu׳ax eitz.
You've all seen these pictures from the 2006 Lebanon operation, these bombs that were being signed by israeli kids were being sent to kill Lebanese children.
What business do kids have to sign bombs? Pure hatred. They teach their kids at a young age to hate anyone and everyone who is not jewish, sorry, God's chosen people.
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Last edited by bob sacamano on Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
niss wrote:What about the children who are undergoing weapons training in Gaza to eventually be militants? Are they legitimate targets as they will be militants?
You out of anyone is talking? You posted pictures of yourself parading weapons while 'vacationing', or was it a terrorist training camp? Maybe we should forward those pictures and your file to CSIS. After all, you are in aviation.
Anyways, you posted pictures of yourself in israel carrying weapons, and now you're talking about palestinian kids holding weapons????? Dude, you keep on digging yourself lower and lower.
Those are your israeli kids being trained.
Howbout israeli settlers now. The ones that get parachuted from all over the world, into palestinian lands, and they are ALL armed by the american tax payer. Here are some pictures of israeli 'civilians'.
Don't he look like he belongs in al qaeda?
Here is how these settlers treat their palestinian hosts.
A still image from a videotape shot by a Palestinian woman on a recorder given out by the Betselem human rights group in Israel on 17 June 2008 shows club-wielding Jewish settlers as they attack a Palestinian farmer in the area of Susiya outside of Hebron in the West Bank on 08 June 2007.
Two Jewish settlers were arrested for attacking the Palestinian farmers. A Palestinian woman in her late 50s was badly wounded in the attack, and her husband and another relative were also battered. EPA/BETSELEM
Howbout those apples? or as you would say, tapu׳ax eitz.
You've all seen these pictures from the 2006 Lebanon operation, these bombs that were being signed by israeli kids were being sent to kill Lebanese children.
What business do kids have to sign bombs? Pure hatred. They teach their kids at a young age to hate anyone and everyone who is not jewish, sorry, God's chosen people.
Read the bombs, you know the ones that say to Nazrallah. Those kids were upset with the leader of hizbollah but of course that would not serve your purpose.
I have no sympathy for the settlers, but you should probably clarify to the people who risk believing your bullshit: those weapons are private, purchased by the settlers.
For the record that pic was of me at the war museum. Are you going to tell me that all the kids who go to airshows or museums here and take pictures of them posing with static displays are legitimate targets? But keep putting your spin on everything. God knows that Pallywood is thriving and needs more PR.
niss wrote:Read the bombs, you know the ones that say to Nazrallah. Those kids were upset with the leader of hizbollah but of course that would not serve your purpose.
I have no sympathy for the settlers, but you should probably clarify to the people who risk believing your bullshit: those weapons are private, purchased by the settlers.
For the record that pic was of me at the war museum. Are you going to tell me that all the kids who go to airshows or museums here and take pictures of them posing with static displays are legitimate targets? But keep putting your spin on everything. God knows that Pallywood is thriving and needs more PR.
As I told you before, I don't debate with extremists such as yourself, so I won't be going there. Just showing pictures to balance your post.
The archived pictures of yours show you parading weapons while lounging on couches inside a home, so NO, they were NOT at a musuem. Unless the musuem has bedrooms were you lounge in. Don't voluntarily post pictures of yourself parading weapons in occupied Palestine, then come and lie about it.
niss wrote:I was only countering Boosted's point, you genuinely seem to think that all Israelis deserve to die.
These are reasons why you are an extremists. If you don't understand or want to understand anyone else's idea, you call them names and accuse them of wanting israelis dead. Grow the fcuk up. I won't even ask you to prove your accusation, since we all know it's a lie.
p.s. you don't have to quote my whole post with all the pictures, a line or two does the job and keeps the board cleaner.
bob sacamano wrote:
These are reasons why you are an extremists. If you don't understand or want to understand anyone else's idea, you call them names and accuse them of wanting israelis dead. Grow the fcuk up. I won't even ask you to prove your accusation, since we all know it's a lie.
p.s. you don't have to quote my whole post with all the pictures, a line or two does the job and keeps the board cleaner.
Interesting,
You have the audacity to call me an extremist. You have constantly taken my quotes out of context and have in the past fabricated quotes labeling me as a racist, yet you are calling me the extremist.
You want to talk about someone who needs to grow the @#$! up? 'Maybe we should show those pictures to CSIS. After all you are in aviation'.
I know it is a lot to think that you are capable of an intelligent conversation, but where would a statement like that fall in one?
You are the only one in 13 pages who decided to get personal. Maybe it is you who needs to grow up.
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She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
1) You had in the past posted pictures of yourself in israel parading military weapons.
2) A couple of posts above, you posted pictures of palestinian kids with weapons.
3) I posted pictures of israeli kids and settlers with weapons (to prove you're a hypocrite since you know israeli kids are trained to use weapons as well).
4) I call you a hypocrite for posting pictures of palestinian kids with weapons, while you, had posted pictures of yourselfwith weapons there.
You got personal, when like a bafoon, you posted pictures of yourself parading military weapons in the middle east, on an aviation forum.
(IsraelNN.com) President Shimon Peres gave a shot of encouragement on Monday morning to 600 soldiers preparing to enter Gaza.
Peres arrived in the Tze’elim army base west of Be’er Sheva, and met with Paratroopers Brigades reservists who are about to enter Gaza to take part in the ground offensive.
“I don’t think we have ever had an army as well-trained, organized and sophisticated as you,” the president said. “For me, your generation is an amazing revelation. Instead of giving you compliments, we can just look at the results: In 16 days, the IDF has done what other countries have not done in 16 years.”
“The results of a war are determined by the impression that is left,” Peres said. “The Palestinians present every downfall of theirs as a victory, and Israel verbally turns its victories into defeats – this time, the IDF is achieving genuine and amazing results, in terms of its caution and activity in Gaza, and we have to make sure that this is the real impression that lasts.”
“I would like to thank you in the name of the Nation of Israel on what the IDF has achieved so far,” Peres said, “and I wish you great success during the continued fighting. Israel set off for war after its home front absorbed rockets and a million people were unable to conduct their lives routinely and were forced into shelters.”
