The best airplane for tail wheel training?

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Hedley
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Hedley »

a Beech 18
Heh. That would be an interesting choice for a trainer -
for quite an eccentric individual!

btw thanks for your tips on flying the Beech 18! How
I land it (on wheels and pavement) is to keep the tail
up as long as possible, then gently lower the tail at the
slowest possible groundspeed - you're really just taxiing
by then.

What I didn't expect - but is obvious in retrospect -
was the yaw for the right ditch, when the tail came
down. But of course, those big metal props create
gyrosopic precession ... lowering the tail is equivalent
to pushing on the bottom of both prop discs when
viewed from behind, and with the clockwise rotation
of the R-985 (again, viewed from behind) the gyroscopic
90 degree lag is equivalent to pushing on the left side
of the prop discs (again, from behind) which creates
the yaw to the right.

Obviously, you can reduce the effect if you lower
the tail slowly, with minimal RPM.

It's the exact opposite of what happens on takeoff,
when you raise the tail - you need to feed in the left
engine, to oppose the yaw to the left.

Interesting aircraft!

I do aerobatics with exactly the same engine and HUGE
metal prop on the 450hp Stearman. You wouldn't believe
how much forward stick it needs, during a hammerhead!
For obvious reasons, maneuvers involving high rates
of yaw and pitch change are NOT a good idea with
the 450hp Stearman - no snap rolls, no tailslides, no
torque rolls, etc. I was told of a fellow who didn't
observe such precautions, and when the crankshaft
finally (but not unexpectedly) broke, the props blades
came down into the cockpit - I presume he was yawing
left at the time - and decapitated him, which I guess is
one way of the machinery telling you that it's pissed at
you overstressing it.
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Last edited by Hedley on Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

But of course, those big metal props create
gyrosopic precession ... lowering the tail is equivalent
Bingo, nice to chat with someone who understands how airplanes behave. :mrgreen:

While I'm here may I comment on the subject of visual clues V/S book learning.

Flying helicopters is a very good example of the behaviour of a spinning device.

Pilots who fly these things and control same by using visual clues to control unwanted yaw will be far quicker to adapt to helicopters that have the rotor spinning in the opposite direction to the ones they have been previously flying.

Book learnin is important but having a brain that is connected to your eyes is even more important.
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Hedley
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Hedley »

P.S. I should mention the Beech 18 I fly has been
converted to the metal 3-blade props, which might
or might not create more gyroscopic precession
than the metal 2-blade props, depending upon
the blade chord (and resulting weight) and length.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

Hedley, the two bladed Beech sounds real airplane like...the three bladed ones sound to " girly like".

By the way are you light enough so the two of us could fly the clipped wing Cub and still get the thing to aerobat a bit? :mrgreen:
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Hedley
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Hedley »

Naw, I'm a porker - over 6 feet tall, 200 lbs in my eighties
tighty-whities. I think the only legal way we could do aerobatics
in it was if someone towed us up to 10,000 feet over the airport
with the fuel tank empty and the prop stopped, released us, and
we did dead stick aerobatics all the way back down again :wink:
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

Great, I will bring it over to your place and we will get your kid to keep towing us up to 10,000 feet with the Beech 18. :mrgreen:
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by MichaelP »

Have you flown a clipped wing cub Michael?
Not yet.
There's a nice Clipped wing Cub at Tango Squadron in Chiang Mai. Maybe I'll get a go in it sometime.
Reading the thread on cold weather ops encourages me more in spending my winters in north Thailand.
It will be horrible, the temperature down to +15C at night sometimes, the smiling friendly girls, warm hospitable people and no snow to be seen anywhere...
Tango has a Chipmunk they fly once a year, a Tiger Moth and a couple of Cubs.
Then Nok has a Tiger Moth as well:

Image

It was fun flying the RV6 and teaching on it...
The Condor was an excellent trainer too with sensitive controls, a proper stall and spin.
Not a full stall landing attitude though so an intermediate level of skill required, the landing being similar to the RV6. I had three Condors at one time.

I found this picture online:

Image
The Condor G AWEI was the second one I bought and I painted it in the red/white/blue scheme you see here.
G BIZN was my second T67A as well, the wooden 'Firefly' with a 118hp O-235 was a good basic aerobatic trainer.
G AFDO was "Butter Cub"... I spent a few hours in the J3, and of course you would with a cruise speed up to 75knots!
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

MichaelP, when ( or if. ) I get the Clipped wing Cub finished do you want to fly it?

We can do it somewhere where TC will never know you were associated with me. :mrgreen:
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by MichaelP »

TC might think I was having a good influence on you :D
Of course I want to fly it!
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

O.K no problem it is the type of a flying device you would love at first flight.

If you run into J.D. tell him I would love for him to ramp check me. :mrgreen:

He might not like it though. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Single-Engine IFR »

Hedley wrote:
a Beech 18

It's the exact opposite of what happens on takeoff,
when you raise the tail - you need to feed in the left
engine, to oppose the yaw to the left.

Interesting aircraft!
I know what you're talking about.
There is also the opportunity for the pilot to over-control in this scenario. You're proceeding down the runway under full power with the tail on the ground with lots of assymetric thrust. You've got a whole boot load of right rudder in to keep it straight. When you raise the tail you apply more right rudder to compensate for the gyroscopic force. Now all of a sudden your airplane is level with no longer any assymetric thrust and it is also not pitching down anymore so there is no longer any gyroscopic force but your right rudder pedal is almost to the floor and you're heading for the runway edge markers; so you put full rudder in the opposite direction, (which makes it just a little bit more interesting)

This happened to me once many years ago; Fortunately nothing was broken except my ego. People were diving for cover.

Regards,


SEI
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by HS-748 2A »

How about the Short Stirling?
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

Well seeing as this thread has been resurrected and we are opining on the relative handling characteristics of different airplanes we might as well each give our own opinions of which we found to be the more difficult to handle on take off and landing.

First off the beech 18 has had a bad reputation only because of pilots hangar flying who either never flew one or they were poor pilots to start with.

So I'll start with three that fit the relatively difficult to handle list for rudder ineffectiveness or weird barking on the runway....( note I prefeer to use the description " Rudder ineffectiveness " rather than " Rudder Authority" because I am anti authority.)

(1) The Grumman Turbo Goose.

(2) The Anson Mk5.....due to weird brakes, only the British could design such an abortion.

(3) The R4D-8.

So lets see how many more we can think of that are more difficult than the B18...a relative Pussy Cat on the runway.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Single-Engine IFR »

I have never flown one myself, but a friend who has, attests that the twin-engine conversion Seabee is almost uncontrollable during the ground operations.

Cheers,


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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by HS-748 2A »

Cat Driver wrote:
(3) The R4D-8.
Is the R4D harder than a DC-3; with the old bag and shoe type brakes?

How about C-46; lots of rudder but you're sure high up there. I would think it must be a handfull.

*To do a solo takeoff & lndg in the Short Stirling was a rite of passage in the RAF, back in the day. Never had the privelage but I can't imagine they come much worse than that. British- abortion.

'48
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »


Is the R4D harder than a DC-3; with the old bag and shoe type brakes?
Yes it is due to the design of the vertical fin and rudder. For some reason Douglas did not give the rudder enough movement to be really effective.

My first cross wind landing in the R4D was a true surprise as I just expected it to fly like a DC3, however it is far more difficult to handle in a X/wind than the DC3..then again a DC3 is so easy even a TC Flight Training Inspector might be taught to land one.

Note:

This is the flight training forum so I am using that comparison so the flight instructors can grasp how easy a DC3 is to land.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by HS-748 2A »

This is the flight training forum so I am using that comparison so the flight instructors can grasp how easy a DC3 is to land.
I like the cut of your jib C.D.

'48
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »


I like the cut of your jib C.D.
Comes from a life time of dealing with that mindset.

Of all the positions in aviation I would challenge anyone to find one more suited to the lowest common denominator aviator wise than what you can find in TCCA's flight training department....sure there must be some good ones there but they are rare from my experience with them.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by HS-748 2A »

Cat Driver wrote:

I like the cut of your jib C.D.
Comes from a life time of dealing with that mindset.
....sure there must be some good ones there but they are rare from my experience with them
Dave Hiltchie - He always treated us fair and we could work with him. No back stabbing - no bs. He should come back as a consultant.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

Dave Hiltchie - He always treated us fair and we could work with him. No back stabbing - no bs. He should come back as a consultant
Yes they do have some good ones, but they also have some who are a disgrace to the industry.

The problem is once they get in they are almost impossible to get rid of and they can really leave a path of destruction behind them.

We have one here in the Pacific Region who is hated and feared by a lot of people in the industry, but the prick knows I don't fear him.

Some day I would like to have him try and check me at an airport but like all bullies he is smart enough to know who not to pick on.

P.M. me if you want his name.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Cat Driver »

Well seeing as this thread has been resurrected and we are opining on the relative handling characteristics of different airplanes we might as well each give our own opinions of which we found to be the more difficult to handle on take off and landing.

First off the beech 18 has had a bad reputation only because of pilots hangar flying who either never flew one or they were poor pilots to start with.

So I'll start with three that fit the relatively difficult to handle list for rudder ineffectiveness or weird barking on the runway....( note I prefeer to use the description " Rudder ineffectiveness " rather than " Rudder Authority" because I am anti authority.)

(1) The Grumman Turbo Goose.

(2) The Anson Mk5.....due to weird brakes, only the British could design such an abortion.

(3) The R4D-8.

So lets see how many more we can think of that are more difficult than the B18...a relative Pussy Cat on the runway.
Come on people what better forum to discuss the relative handling problems with various airplanes than the training forum?

I must confess to having a personal wish to keep this subject going because I want to come back into the training business and would love to have people give me advice on how to control yaw.

mcrit has outlined my short comings as an instructor in this kind note he wrote to me in another forum, so any help I can get would be really appreciated to upgrade my knowledge and skills so I can get back into teaching pilots how to fly better.

...Cat....is that all you've got? We've been over that, guys with a lot more time than you on hotter a/c than a PBY saw not trouble with that method. The fact that you don't want to show your students how power changes cause yaw just makes me gald that you are out of the industry. FWIW I wouldn't hire you for any job, aviation or otherwise because you are just to pigheaded to be any use to anyone.
With a proper understanding of this subject of how to teach flying it will help me over come my being so pig headed.

Come on gang, please help me.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I see Cat Driver is out trolling for Instructors to flame again, sigh....
Too bad as I have been impressed at the high level of practical info shared on the flight training forum and the generally civil and constructive tone posters are using. I hope others join me in not wishing to see this forum return to the bad old days where almost every thread deteriorated into a rude personal flaming match...and will post accordingly.
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by mcrit »

Hey BPF....good to see you back. What have you been up to?
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by StudentPilot »

biohazzard wrote:Hello all,
I am new to flying and would like to buy a taildragger. There is some conflicting info on the net about the C-150/152. I absolutely mean no offense and could use some guidance before spending the money.
Conversions: The TexasTaildragger seems to be narrower and higher than the CustomAircraft conversion. Could someone elaborate on the pros/cons of this. Angle of attack as it applies to taildragger landings?
Rudder: I have read that the swept tail 150/152 doesn't have enough rudder authority for tail wheel ops. However, Cat Pilot converted one and seemed to like it. So, do I need a straight tail, or will a swept tail work?
The planes I have found are:
65' 150E (straight tail) with Custom Aircraft conversion
81' 152II (swept tail) with Texas Taildragger conversion
The 152 is a better looking plane. But for now I am looking for function over appearance.
Keep in mind, I am very low time (C-172) and want a plane that handles reasonably well.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
Any chance you (or anyone else) could comment on the questions that brought the thread back to life Cat?
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Re: The best airplane for tail wheel training?

Post by MichaelP »

Comments:

1. It is usually better to buy a tailwheel aeroplane rather than convert a Land-O-Matic one.
Buying a Cessna 150/152 and converting it yourself might cost more than buying a C120/C140, but you do get a higher TOW and useful load I suppose.

2. The flat plate main gear is supposedly better than the tubular round section gear.
The Cessna 152 (and later C150) tailwheel conversion was regarded by many as being 'wonky' on it's round gear legs. The geometry of the wheels, toe in and out etc varied according to the loads on each side.
The older flat gear legs were more rigid.
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