Was reading COPA this evening and found a couple of Enforcement fines against Ag. Pilots in the Prairie and Northern Region.
One pilot was fined for drinking alcohol within 8 hours of flying and not getting eight hours of rest. Fined. $4,250.00
The other pilot was just fined for drinking within eight hours of flying. Fined $1,000.00.
The second guy did not get fined for not getting eight hours of rest, so did he do the drinking while resting?
I wonder how TC managed to get proof of these guys doing this?
Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
freakonature
- Rank 5
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
TC was out at the bowling alley with them the night before?
...that night was awkward.
...that night was awkward.
no sig because apparently quoting people in context is offensive to them.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
What struck me as unusual was both these pilots were Ag pilots and I don't recall any being caught drinking and flying, especially two in the same region.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
How do they access fines?
One pilot gets a $2,500.00 fine for drinking within eight hours of flying and the other one is only fined $1000.00.
Was the fine based on how soon they flew after drinking or did the guy that only paid $1000.00 prove he was well rested before he got in the airplane impaired?
One pilot gets a $2,500.00 fine for drinking within eight hours of flying and the other one is only fined $1000.00.
Was the fine based on how soon they flew after drinking or did the guy that only paid $1000.00 prove he was well rested before he got in the airplane impaired?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Prairie Chicken
- Rank 7
- Posts: 727
- Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:12 pm
- Location: Gone sailing...
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
Cat, TC has a table of recommended sanctions for each offence under the CARS. The more serious the offence, the greater the recommended sanction, up to legislated maximums. Also, sanctions increase in severity if an offender has one or more previous contraventions. Plus, managers have discretion to adjust the penalties if there are aggravating or mitigating circumstances. Also, the table differentiates between individuals and corporations. Sanctions for corporations are much higher.
With regard to your second pilot, I believe the recommended sanction for CAR 602.03 (consuming alchohol within 8 hours) for a pilot with no priors would be $1000 where there were no aggravating or mitigating circumstances. Likely there was no contravention of the duty day regs; therefore no penalty pertaining to CAR 700.
The recommended fine for a contravention of 602.03 when an individual did have one prior conviction would be about $2500, so your first pilot may have had priors. Add to that the sanction for 700.16, and apply any aggravating or mitigating circumstances and that should explain why your first pilot had a penalty of $4200 while the 2nd only had a penalty of $1000.
Clear as mud?
With regard to your second pilot, I believe the recommended sanction for CAR 602.03 (consuming alchohol within 8 hours) for a pilot with no priors would be $1000 where there were no aggravating or mitigating circumstances. Likely there was no contravention of the duty day regs; therefore no penalty pertaining to CAR 700.
The recommended fine for a contravention of 602.03 when an individual did have one prior conviction would be about $2500, so your first pilot may have had priors. Add to that the sanction for 700.16, and apply any aggravating or mitigating circumstances and that should explain why your first pilot had a penalty of $4200 while the 2nd only had a penalty of $1000.
Clear as mud?
Prairie Chicken
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
Thanks for the info. Prairie Chick, that was what I was trolling for, some explanation on how these fines are arrived at.
Your suggestions are about what I was thinking.
The other side of this issue is if a person is fined or in some other way sanctioned by TCCA there is a avenue to appeal the findings by going to the tribunal, however having been through the tribunal process myself on several occasions I am just a bit uncomfortable with their structure as they are not all as impartial as they claim to be...sort of like TCCA's " Quality Assurance " department where subjectivity is taken to a new height.
Anyhow thanks for the info Prairie Chick the bottom line is don't put yourself in a situation where you can be charged and you are less apt to get penalized.
Your suggestions are about what I was thinking.
The other side of this issue is if a person is fined or in some other way sanctioned by TCCA there is a avenue to appeal the findings by going to the tribunal, however having been through the tribunal process myself on several occasions I am just a bit uncomfortable with their structure as they are not all as impartial as they claim to be...sort of like TCCA's " Quality Assurance " department where subjectivity is taken to a new height.
Anyhow thanks for the info Prairie Chick the bottom line is don't put yourself in a situation where you can be charged and you are less apt to get penalized.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
"FLY THE AIRPLANE"!
http://www.youtube.com/hazatude
http://www.youtube.com/hazatude
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
Quote: “Plus, managers have discretion to adjust the penalties if there are aggravating or mitigating circumstances.”
As in paid/not paid a bribe? That one is wide open to abuse, particularly in view of the allegations made publicly against TC management; allegations that Transport Canada management apparently accepts are true.
With the level of service and amount of abuse provided by TC (just look at all the complaints) it is quite clear that most TC “managers” are not fit to have any discretionary powers whatsoever. When TC is able to provide the level of competence, honesty, consistency and timeliness that is normal in the successful parts of the competitive private sector and even in some government operations then it will be fair to consider giving TC managers some discretionary power. With the present situation at TC it is obvious that the average TC manager is unfit for any position or decision making powers involving trust, competence, justice, honesty, authority or leadership or which in any way impacts TC’s captive customers.
Apart from the above, it is an insult to natural justice to have the same entity operate as investigator, prosecutor, jury, judge and enforcer. What the hell has Canada descended to? Is Merlin Mugabe now running the zoo?
If somebody does not like the above comments please do not waste time “shooting the messenger”. The answer is to push for the problems at TC to be investigated and remedied. If the problems are solved and TC is seen to be operating in a fair, impartial, timely and cost-effective manner then the complaints will cease. What is so difficult to understand about that?
As in paid/not paid a bribe? That one is wide open to abuse, particularly in view of the allegations made publicly against TC management; allegations that Transport Canada management apparently accepts are true.
With the level of service and amount of abuse provided by TC (just look at all the complaints) it is quite clear that most TC “managers” are not fit to have any discretionary powers whatsoever. When TC is able to provide the level of competence, honesty, consistency and timeliness that is normal in the successful parts of the competitive private sector and even in some government operations then it will be fair to consider giving TC managers some discretionary power. With the present situation at TC it is obvious that the average TC manager is unfit for any position or decision making powers involving trust, competence, justice, honesty, authority or leadership or which in any way impacts TC’s captive customers.
Apart from the above, it is an insult to natural justice to have the same entity operate as investigator, prosecutor, jury, judge and enforcer. What the hell has Canada descended to? Is Merlin Mugabe now running the zoo?
If somebody does not like the above comments please do not waste time “shooting the messenger”. The answer is to push for the problems at TC to be investigated and remedied. If the problems are solved and TC is seen to be operating in a fair, impartial, timely and cost-effective manner then the complaints will cease. What is so difficult to understand about that?
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
In any country that understands the concept of " natural justice " some of these TC managers would be locked up in prison where they could get acquainted with what KY lube is good for.What is so difficult to understand about that?
Unfortunately Carrier " justice " is a word that TCCA uses at their own discretion depending on who they are dealing with at the moment.
The biggest reason that Preuss and his ilk get away with making a mockery of the rule of law is they are given permission to do so by the fact that in Canada ignorance rules and no one really cares.
For sure if you become a target for these thugs they can and do use their power to prevent you from working in aviation in Canada.
Maybe the reason they get away with it, is because they keep their clients in line through fear, like they do their Inspectors?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
The Old Fogducker
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1784
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:13 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
.:
I was sure that in the last few days, I had read a posting by you where you stated the only way that an operator manages to obtain or hold an AOC in Pacific Region was by bribing TC inspectors or Departmental Managers. I tried to find your post to show to a young friend of mine today.
That's pretty interesting stuff, where did it go?
I ask because he's a bright young guy in his mid-30's that has been thinking of joining Transport Canada as an Inspector, and he asked my opinion. He's been an Instructor, bush line pilot on singles and twins VFR and IFR on floats wheels and skiis, company training pilot on Singles & multis, Chief Pilot of a 10 airplane operation, and is now an Ops Mgr that still line flies or check rides about 30 hours a month and also has some Approved Check Pilot experience. That's the lowdown on his background. He's pretty fed up with being laid off several times, worked for 2 companies that went "tits up" and left him broke and in the middle of nowhere, has been threatened with his job for not wanting to dispatch airplanes into below limits destinations, scrimp on maintenance and/or training to keep company operating costs down, etc ... in other words, he's lived the "real life" of a small 703 air carrier with a low profit margins for the better part of 15 years.
When I gave him my answer about his wanting to perhaps apply to Transport and seriously looking at the job, your post came to mind and I thought it would be good for him to read the information so he'd know what he's up against in the way of perception of the job by a small segment of the industry.
By the by, I recommended that he apply, and take the whole process up to the point where he receives the job offer, then sit down & have a serious talk with himself and his wife about what he wants to do for employment and future benefits. That way, the decision is his, and not someone else's.
Fog
I was sure that in the last few days, I had read a posting by you where you stated the only way that an operator manages to obtain or hold an AOC in Pacific Region was by bribing TC inspectors or Departmental Managers. I tried to find your post to show to a young friend of mine today.
That's pretty interesting stuff, where did it go?
I ask because he's a bright young guy in his mid-30's that has been thinking of joining Transport Canada as an Inspector, and he asked my opinion. He's been an Instructor, bush line pilot on singles and twins VFR and IFR on floats wheels and skiis, company training pilot on Singles & multis, Chief Pilot of a 10 airplane operation, and is now an Ops Mgr that still line flies or check rides about 30 hours a month and also has some Approved Check Pilot experience. That's the lowdown on his background. He's pretty fed up with being laid off several times, worked for 2 companies that went "tits up" and left him broke and in the middle of nowhere, has been threatened with his job for not wanting to dispatch airplanes into below limits destinations, scrimp on maintenance and/or training to keep company operating costs down, etc ... in other words, he's lived the "real life" of a small 703 air carrier with a low profit margins for the better part of 15 years.
When I gave him my answer about his wanting to perhaps apply to Transport and seriously looking at the job, your post came to mind and I thought it would be good for him to read the information so he'd know what he's up against in the way of perception of the job by a small segment of the industry.
By the by, I recommended that he apply, and take the whole process up to the point where he receives the job offer, then sit down & have a serious talk with himself and his wife about what he wants to do for employment and future benefits. That way, the decision is his, and not someone else's.
Fog
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Interesting TC Enforcement actions.
Fog, I doubt very much that I would have made such a direct charge..:
I was sure that in the last few days, I had read a posting by you where you stated the only way that an operator manages to obtain or hold an AOC in Pacific Region was by bribing TC inspectors or Departmental Managers. I tried to find your post to show to a young friend of mine today.
That's pretty interesting stuff, where did it go?
I am also sure that somewhere in these many, many posts that I make about TCCA...especially the Pacific Region I have suggested that based on the morals or rather lack thereof of " some" of TCCA's top management I would not be in the least surprised if there was not a " quid pro quo " of some sort which could include money between " some " TCCA managers and " some " companies.
I stand by that opinion.
I can well understand your young friends frustration with trying to work in the aviation industry and remain within the bounds of the rules and his own integrity and morals......been there many times, done that many times and was unemployed many times.
Until there is a polar shift within the top management of TCCA which gets rid of the corrupt managers at the top the industry will continue to suffer from uneven oversight and companies that operate outside the rules and intimidate their employees to do so or face unemployment.
I can not give advice to your friend as to weather or not he should apply for a job as a TCCA inspector, especially in the Pacific Region under its present management.
What I can do is offer to talk to him and outline the evidence of wrongdoing within the top management level of TCCA that I have bullet proof documentation of.
To protect everyone's legal rights he can record every word I utter or better yet bring his M.P. with him as a witness, that way there would be a record for them to go home and decide who to bring in front of a legal venue....certain TCCA top management including the present Director Civil Aviation Pacific Region for abuse of power to start with, or me for liable.
So as not to ramble on here have him read the part from the Bonita Smith Report where she clearly states the following.
Then he can sit at home and wonder if there were any " between closed doors meetings " between say Sonic Blue and TCCA's top management...maybe he will wonder about it.* the predominent perception that a customer complaint is handled one- sidedly and that management " dictates how inspectors are to act " has laid the foundation for mistrust and paranonia.
Examples given include:
* Behind closed doors meetings between managers and companies.
I trust that explains my position Fog?
By the way I can not believe we are having this discussion because employment at TCCA should be the most sought after job in aviation...if it was not so corrupt at the top it would be.....in my opinion of course.
I'm easy to find.
.@..org
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
