T.C shuts part of Skyward down

TROWL · Post by **TROWL** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:54 am

No problem, Localizer. I was getting bored of it. There is no challange in engaging in a battle of wits with someone as poorly armed as yourself. Besides, the gelatinous ooze seeping from your brain through to my keyboard was getting messy

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:28 pm

SOME ONE SHOULD, CONSIDER THIS. THE AERONAUTICS ACT AMONG OTHER THINGS STATES THAT THE MINISTER [b]SHALL[/b] GRANT THE OPERATING CERTIFICATE PROVIDED THE APPLICANT CAN DEMONSTRATE THEY CAN COMPLY WITH THE THE REGULATIONS AND STANDARDS.

TRANPORT CANADA TAKES VERY SERIOUSLY PULLING AN O.C.
AND IS WELL AWARE OF THE ECONOMIC CONSQUENCES. however it's
mandate is to ensure the safety of the paying passenger.

WHEN AN AUDIT IS DONE THEY HAVE FINDINGS (IF ANY ) AND NOTIFICATION IS SENT GIVING SUFFICIENT TIME TO COMPLY IN MOST CASES.

THEN ANOTHER LETTER IS SENT IF YOU IGNORED THE LAST ONE
( NOT A BRIGHT IDEA! ) DEMANDING THE ATTENSION OF THE OWNER AND HIS DELEGATE ( MAINTENANCE DIRECTOR ETC ) TO NOTIFY TC THAT STEPS HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO RECTIFY THE DEFICIENCIES

IF YOU ARE LAME ENOUGH TO IGNORE THIS LETTER YOU DESERVE THE OC BEING PULLED.

FINALLY IN FAIRNESS TO THE OPS MGR OR DIR OF MAINTENANCE
THEY COLLECT A SALARY JUST LIKE THE GUY /GAL FLYING THE LINE
AND IF THE OWNER IS OLD SCHOOL AND COWBOY MENTALITY
YOU CAN ONLY PUSH A SNOWBALL UP A MOUTAIN SO FAR AND THEN ARE LEFT WITH THE SAME CHOICES WE ALL ARE FACED WITH
1/ QUIT AND LEAVE THE HEADACHE TO THE NEXT DUM'SUM BIT...
2/ STAND UP AND FIGTH TO MAKE IT BETTER AND GET CANNED IN THE PROCESS. REMEMBER PEOPLE THE CAR'S STATE THAT THE OWNER IS RESPONSIBLE AND THAT WHEN YOU APPLY FOR AN O.C. YOU ARE ENTERING INTO A LEGAL AGREEMENT TO OPERATE ACCORDING TO THE RULES AND BY THE TERMS OF THE OPS MANUAL.

SO HOPE THAT PUTS AN END TO ALL THE BASHING AND BRINGS A LITTLE FOCUSED LIGHT ON THE THE REAL PROBLEM . THE OWNER THOUGHT HE COULD IGNORE TRANSPORT AND DO IT ANY DAMN WAY HE WANTS AND FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY- NO YA CAN'T

snag · Post by **snag** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:28 pm

Hey Localizer and TROWL, try using that little "pm" icon. Save the rest of us the inconvenience of a pre-pubescent cat fight.

Sounds like there is a consulting team at work with Skyward, and goals of reinstatement of the OC by early next week. Good news for 1900, 208, 100, 441 drivers only. E110, 402, 206, 207, 414, 421, 310 drivers may be out of work for a while. Best of luck guys.

S.

Captain Crunch · Post by **Captain Crunch** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:24 pm

YOU CAN ONLY PUSH A SNOWBALL UP A MOUTAIN SO FAR AND THEN ARE LEFT WITH THE SAME CHOICES WE ALL ARE FACED WITH
1/ QUIT AND LEAVE THE HEADACHE TO THE NEXT DUM'SUM BIT...
2/ STAND UP AND FIGTH TO MAKE IT BETTER AND GET CANNED IN THE PROCESS.

It's too bad more people didn't choose option 2, only a few had the balls to, maybe if more did this whole mess could have been avoided!

Mario · Post by **Mario** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:16 pm

Ummm.... I'd just carry the snowball up the mountain if I really needed it up there, or I'd make a new one once I got there.
And what in the heck do either of those options have to do with the price of tea in China.
I would just like to say I hope Skyward gets things together and regardless of how operations were in the past, makes things work this time around. Condolences for the people involved.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:26 pm

Mario wrote:Ummm.... I'd just carry the snowball up the mountain if I really needed it up there, or I'd make a new one once I got there.
And what in the heck do either of those options have to do with the price of tea in China.

Well under the snowball situation, you're pretty much stuck making your tea in the northern and/or mountainous regions of China. Since it would take several snowballs to give you enough water to make tea and given the previously mentioned geographic conditions; labour and transportation costs would make the tea in China fairly expensive, despite the low wages of the average Chinese itinerant worker.

LH · Post by LH » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:15 am

There's another item to keep in mind here before some of us get "wired" over this whole deal. This has happened before Skyward ever existed in Manitoba......and it will continue to happen with them being replaced as the offender by some other company. This time it's their turn in the "shi*tter" and 6 months from now it'll be someone else's. They existed in good times and bad for the industry and no matter where wages go or anything else, they will still exist. As long as there is money to be made, SOME people are always "pushing the envelope" to squeeze out a little more.......and we all know how far down the ladder they usually start that "squeezing", The ones they work on are the less experienced first because the experienced don't have to and got a lesser tolerance for "crap". They have more options, but those options are more limited the farther down the "pecking order" you go. Ergo, the operators surround themselves with as many of those that they can "push" as they can and keep the overhead down at the same time. In certain segments of the business world that's called good business.

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:32 am

Heard that mtc was contracted out to gillam air. Maybe something will finally get done.

Seriously. Why in the hell are they shut down when other companies are still operating around the area that should've had everything pulled, except for their shlorts, years ago??????

Coors Original. The closest thing to a real beer is talkin'.

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:44 am

Our new friend oldncold although seemingly incapable of turning off his cap lock.. still has a good point. Everyone has their own opinion about Skyward and I sincerely hope they get things cleaned up and the boys (and girls) get back in the air asap. That said, what oldncold said is correct when it comes to audits and TC. I have been through 4 audits in a 4 year period. The company I was working for had 2 charter, 1 school and 1 Maintenance audit in the almost 4 years I was there. Each audit, I was given about 2-3 weeks advance notice of their intent to perform said audits. In otherwords, make sure your sh*t is together because we are on our way. Then, once there of course there were "findings". My first audit was VERY stressful, but after 11 findings (9 of which were clerical in nature) they discussed each one with myself and the CP. They suggested ways to improve on what they found to be deficient. They used it as a training session (in their words) and seemed to even care to some degree. We had coffee and a couple donuts and then they left the building after usually 3 days.

About 10 days later, the first notice arrived with simple copies of what they had already left us to correct. We were given 30 days to respond with a short term, then long term corrective action plan. Once this was completed on our part, we sent the action plans back to TC and the next letter I got was "Thank you for your cooperation and we (TC) have now closed the file. That was it. The following 3 audits went in similiar fashion.
This is why I say there is some truth to what oldncold is saying.

TC doesnt just walk in and close a place down without some sort of just cause. Espically if the suspension of the AOC is a direct result of a pre-announced audit.

I have NO idea to be honest if this suspension was a direct result of findings during an audit, or if they walked in and went SURPRISE we are here now open the books? Theres a BIG diffrence. If they had their AOC suspended after failing to provide TC (in the ample time they allow to solve a problem) with proper short and long term resolutions, then sadly, management must have dropped the ball somewhere along the line.
People can blame TC for many things and do, but if the audit was pre announced and TC came after 2-3 weeks of notice.. then really who is to blame?

This all said, I have dealt with the CP at Skyward and know MANY people that have came and went. The CP is a good guy who honestly gives his best. I never remember even during my time in MB, anyone saying much negative about Skyward other then the owner was a religious "freak" and thats not all bad either. So, all this speculation is giving me a headache.
I just wanted to point out, having been there myself, that TC does indeed give you plenty of time to find a solution.. (Key part of this post here)...
Unless they had such serious and immediate safety issues that would warrant their suspension to be so immediate. If this was a pre-announced audit and they still yanked the AOC, chances are there is/was truly some rather "indepth" safety concerns at very least.

I wish Skyward the best and hope they get back in the air very soon. Too many good people up in Thompson bustin their butts for this company. All the best to each one of you.
Fly safe all, Cheers

mister mofo · Post by **mister mofo** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:54 am

Skyward had the OC pulled because they deserved it. It is illogical to say"other companies are a greater risk, so why shut down Skyward?" Regardless of how bad other companies are, when TC does an audit, if you don't pass you get shut down. There is no sliding scale of safety. It's a pass or a fail. In my own opinion, from speaking with their pilots, they have been bending, breaking and ignoring rules for years. They do medivacs in non medivac certified planes. Their planes fly broken becuase pilots fear to snag them, mostly because there are no parts to fix them. I've recently heard rumors about lapses in training, more than just a paperwork oversight. Anyone in management at Perimeter will tell you that Skyward's been above the law for a very long time now, and that's bad for business becuase the rules wern't being applied.

I like that there is competition, I think it's good for the industry at all levels. You need to have a Skyward for every Perimeter. However, I'm overjoyed that Skyward got shut down for being unsafe. They were, and they got what they deserved. Now, there is a level playing field, and that will improve safety at other Manitoba operators too. Skyward didn't get picked on by Transport, they got caught breaking the rules, and they don't deserve to make a cent in this business untill they fix their operation.

Leerboy · Post by **Leerboy** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:25 am

Funny, the CGAA thread got shut down far earlier than this. I wonder why?

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:01 pm

Leerboy wrote:Funny, the CGAA thread got shut down far earlier than this. I wonder why?

Why should this one be shut down? There has been no slander, no lies, no untruths, no raging arguments, no personal attacks and no BS.

I am actually surprised at the level of maturity this thread has maintained.

LH · Post by LH » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:21 pm

mister mofo ------the DoT/MoT file on Perimeter has got to come half-way up to your knees after 35+ years of infractions, fines and suspension. Please don't use their opinion of Skyward as a reccomendation for or against Skyward.....for it carries no creedance. Based on their own history, they would do well to remain very, very quiet on this subject. Any pilot who has flown in Manitoba or lived in Winnipeg over the last 35+ years can attest to that.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:17 pm

....we need more facts...

Have there been any facts mentioned in this thread?! .. Thats what i'd like to know ..

LH · Post by LH » Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:00 pm

csj -------sir, there's no jealousy involved in my statement at all nor is any inferred....that's your interpretation. What I spoke to is a matter of recorded record and goes back to before the Gold Bullion robbery at the Winnipeg International Airport in 1966. Skyward Aviation has quite some way to go before they equal the "exploits" of one Perimiter Airlines....and that's based on recorded DoT/Mot FACT. I've never worked for them, wanted to work for them, nor has the company nor any of it's employees done me any misdeed since Mr. W commenced operations.

I don't wish to detour this topic, but those companies that voice an opinion or "throw stones" should first see how much glass they have in their own homes. To everyone else, my apologies for detouring the topic for a moment. If I see the name Perimiter again, I'll resist the urge to reply and simply go "clicK" with my mouse. 'Nuff said.

Corporate Pilot · Post by **Corporate Pilot** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:54 am

sprucemonkey wrote:Heard that mtc was contracted out to gillam air.

I don't believe that is possible unless you're just talking about the little stuff.

I believe Perimeter and Flightcraft are the only Manitoba AMOs rated to work on the 1900s!

mister mofo · Post by **mister mofo** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:07 am

LH - Don't get me wrong. I have no illusions of Perimeter. To quote CSJ, they "surf the tip of the law", just like every company has to do in this teir of the industry. Skyward had some serious problems in their airline structure, everyone knows in this business it is impossible to operate with a lot of different types of aircraft. The 1900 is hard aircraft to operate in the black. Perimeter has one type of a/c. They have never, in my knowledge, been shut down, and they've been around for like 30 plus years! To my knowledge they've never even laid off an pilot. What other airline in Canada can say that? They have a market niche, and thats why they operate safer - they can afford it. In the long run, I think it will show that Skyward had to cut corners to compete, and that's why they are shut down. I remember when I was working at the "green machine" Skyward and Perimeter didn't even compete with each other. Skyward pretty much took the province from YTH northwards, Perimeter took the south. Skyward started scheds into Island Lake, and all of a sudden the competition began. That's when Perimeter started to do medivacs, it was all a grab at Skyward's cash cow. That's why I use their management as a source. They studied Skyward to compete effectively.

Saying "Perimeter's has no valid opinion about Skyward" is like saying Coke knows nothing about Pepsi, or the U.S. didn't know anything about USSR. Of course they do - each is the others best, most informed critic.

Once the money got skinny from competing, Skyward started to cut corners. Until then they were a pretty good comapny... To summarize:

mo' money = mo' safety.

Jr.wrench · Post by **Jr.wrench** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:23 am

the green machine doing mtc on skyward aircraft?? and who's flightcraft?? do you mean kelowna flightcraft??

Corporate Pilot · Post by **Corporate Pilot** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:32 pm

Jr.wrench wrote:the green machine doing mtc on skyward aircraft?? and who's flightcraft?? do you mean kelowna flightcraft??

You're a Jr. Wrench and you don't know on of the most diversified AMOs in your area??!! That's sad.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/ActivePage ... p?x_lang=E

AMO #: 80-97
Flightcraft Maintenance Services Ltd.
5 Allen Dyne Rd.
Winnipeg MB R3H0Z9

Phone: 204 783-2754
Fax: 204 783-2848

Category - Rating - Scope of Work

Aircraft - BAe Jetstream series -All non-specialized work
Aircraft - Beech 1900 series - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - Beech King Air series - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - Bell 206 series helicopters - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - Cessna Citation 500 series - As specified company manual
Aircraft - Cessna single turbopropeller - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - DeHavilland DHC-6 series - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - DeHavilland DHC-8 series - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - Fokker F28 series - As specified company manual
Aircraft - Hawker Siddeley HS 748 series - All non-specialized work
Aircraft - Piston powered aeroplanes with a MTOW of 5700 kg. and below
- As specified in company manual
Structures - Sheet Metal Structures - As specified in company manual

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:47 pm

So according to their website, skyward should be back up and running tomorrow.

Corporate Pilot · Post by **Corporate Pilot** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:48 pm

Has anyone heard about Wasaya involvement? They're all setup for most of what Skyward was running.

What's going on out there in Manitoba?? The media and this thread are untypically quiet.

HARLEYD67 · Post by **HARLEYD67** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:01 am

SKYWARD.....We hope to see you flying again soon...your service and are aircraft are premier....Also, your pilots and staff provide the best customer service I have seen yet

snag · Post by **snag** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:18 am

Well, today was the day that stuff was supposed to get going again. Does not sound like it'll happen quite yet.

http://www.skyward.mb.ca/cust_notice3.htm

How far are we into the 30 day deadline for recertification?

S.

Jr.wrench · Post by **Jr.wrench** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:29 am

today was and is the day! little birdy "we have our OC back" sounds good, but where are the aircraft?? i heard they are all parked out side, except two 1900"s. what's up??

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:37 pm

Well, notice #3 doesn't sound very good. They aren't even guessing at a date anymore.

T.C shuts part of Skyward down

TC AND SKYWARD.

Re: TC AND SKYWARD.

Skyward and safety

Perimeter Vs. Skyward