Current Role of Unions in Aviation - Thoughts & Experiences

[Audi]

Good Morning,

I need to write a short discussion paper on the current role of unions in aviation.

The Instructor has asked that I address the following points:

1) Do unions help or hinder companies?

2) Are unions better or worse for employees/employee groups?

3) Do unions make a company more efficient or inefficient?

4) If you were an employee would you want or not want a union and why?

I am looking for all relevant thoughts & experiences with regards to the above points.

PMs are welcomed for those that prefer not to comment in an open forum.

Thank You Kindly, Audi.

[mattedfred]

Good Morning,

I need to write a short discussion paper on the current role of unions in aviation.

The Instructor has asked that I address the following points:

1) Do unions help or hinder companies?

2) Are unions better or worse for employees/employee groups?

3) Do unions make a company more efficient or inefficient?

4) If you were an employee would you want or not want a union and why?

I am looking for all relevant thoughts & experiences with regards to the above points.

PMs are welcomed for those that prefer not to comment in an open forum.

Thank You Kindly, Audi.

1) i would say that unions would hinder a company when looking at it from the company perspective as their goal is to enforce the collective agreement that both sides agreed to as well as the CLC. companies without a union have a much easier time of operating in contravention of the CLC and employee agreements.
2) unions are better for employees in my opinion.
3) unions make a company less efficient for the reasons stated in point 1.
4) i am glad to be a member of a union as it fights t maintain a high level of safety and job security.

[Audi]

Thank You for the response!

I was wondering if you (& others) could provide some personal experiences to elaborate further.

1) i would say that unions would hinder a company when looking at it from the company perspective as their goal is to enforce the collective agreement that both sides agreed to as well as the CLC. companies without a union have a much easier time of operating in contravention of the CLC and employee agreements.

Can you give me a situation from your experience, when a companies profitability, or overall success, was hindered as a result of the union?

2) unions are better for employees in my opinion.

Can you tell me a specific example that you found yourself at an advantage (or benefit) over a non-union counterpart?

3) unions make a company less efficient for the reasons stated in point 1.

Can you provide an example of how a company you have worked for was crippled in efficiency as a result of the union agreement?

What I am trying to do with this discussion paper is get a feel for current experiences (current can mean within one's career).

Thanks again, Audi.

[codfish]

alpa.org

i'm happy to be a unionized pilot.

cod

[duckfoot]

The only thing I don't like about unions is the protection sub-par pilots get in some situations. I've heard of guys getting totally liquored up and failing sim rides and the union protects them. Or complete disregard of SOP with no action against them after several complaints. I also don't like it when guys get an upgrade just because their number is up. Some people just aren't meant to lead and you give them the power of being a captain and it is abused.

I do like that pilots have the protection. It makes it a lot easier to turn down a trip or an airplane when you know you have the support of a union. Some people will say that there should be no excuse for feeling pressured but the reality is that most of us if not all of us feel some sort of pressure to "make it work"

[Four1oh]

You get the 'opportunity' to upgrade when your seniority number comes up. There's no guarantee you'll make it, and not everyone does.

[Rockie]

In most industries labour laws protect the workers from flagrant excesses on the part of an employer. Unions ensure that labour laws are followed because the government does not, and they also fight for greater benefits and increased standard of living.

In the airline business, the air regulations or "labour laws" if you want to call them that do not protect the employee. They are a never ending series of tiger traps that we must negotiate. It is up to us to protect ourselves even in the largest of companies. That is why unions are essential in the airline business. Westjet has no union, but they have an organization that their management listens to. Why management listens to them is open to speculation. Some will say they care, others will say it's because if they don't things will rapidly deteriorate and their happy owner commercials won't be quite as truthful. Whatever...the pilots have a voice there too.

[CCR]

I'm happy to be a non-unionized pilot. As an ex-QK/ALPA pilot I found the environment to be poisonous. A "us vs. them" mentality which translated at times in attempts to harm the company's attempt to maintain profitability. Our leadership was the union leadership instead of management. Unions are a business. Plain and simple. They need "brothers and sisters" to fund their bottom line. I paid 1.95% of my salary for what? A sub-standard wage? For the senior guys to get what they wanted at the expense of the juniors? A contract that required a lawyer to interpret? Do we have a "perfect" system at WJA? No. Do we always see eye to eye with the Leadership? Nope. Do we have the ability to engage in two way communication in a cordial and at many times friendly manner? Yep. Do I see my goals aligned with the Leadership's? Yes. Do I come to work stressed that my management, my union, or another pilot group is trying to screw me? Nope. Are unions bad? No not necessarily. A union can do good things i.e. ALPA Flight Safety and Legal. Are unions needed? I'm sure if the there is no dialogue between the employee group and the company and/or the company constantly engages in unsafe/unfair practices. Yes, that would be a case for a union.

[GTFA]

I'm happy to be a non-unionized pilot. As an ex-QK/ALPA pilot I found the environment to be poisonous. A "us vs. them" mentality which translated at times in attempts to harm the company's attempt to maintain profitability. Our leadership was the union leadership instead of management. Unions are a business. Plain and simple. They need "brothers and sisters" to fund their bottom line. I paid 1.95% of my salary for what? A sub-standard wage? For the senior guys to get what they wanted at the expense of the juniors? A contract that required a lawyer to interpret? Do we have a "perfect" system at WJA? No. Do we always see eye to eye with the Leadership? Nope. Do we have the ability to engage in two way communication in a cordial and at many times friendly manner? Yep. Do I see my goals aligned with the Leadership's? Yes. Do I come to work stressed that my management, my union, or another pilot group is trying to screw me? Nope. Are unions bad? No not necessarily. A union can do good things i.e. ALPA Flight Safety and Legal. Are unions needed? I'm sure if the there is no dialogue between the employee group and the company and/or the company constantly engages in unsafe/unfair practices. Yes, that would be a case for a union.

Dear CCR. It frustrates me to no end to hear your impression based on your experience with ALPA. At Jazz there are many different airline cultures that make up their now vast operation. One of the cultures was confrontational and vindictive. That is a small part of what makes up the pilot group at Jazz. The attitude that you complain about is your own. If people around you were behaving in a manner you did not feel was appropriate then it is up to you to influence them in a positive way. With 1500+ pilots there are bound to be dissagreements and ALPA always seeks a positive outcome for the pilot group as a whole, not just the indivdual. That way no one gets Screwed. If you ever truly thought that anyone was out to "screw" you then you didn't look deep enough at a) the process or b) your expectations. You cannot possibly identify your dissapointment in the contract with the ALPA reps or the organization as a whole. ALPA/Jazz came out of CCAA smellin' like a rose in terms of bargaining integrity and accomplishment. What on earth did you think was going on? To say that juniors finance the seniors is an age-old, never-to-be-resolved argument. To compare WJ with Jazz is mind boggling! You can say you prefer to be at one Vs the other but to compare union/non-union is unfair. The only thing that the two companies have in common is that they have airplanes. WJ's idea of sharing the ownership was a high risk proposition at the time.
WJ would be well served by ALPA provided that no power hungry dilusionary maniac was elected to represent. That's the beauty of it, each group represents themselves and elects their own executives and bargaining committees etc. If you don't like your representation it's your own fault. Just like now, right?

YOU were ALPA

[mattedfred]

CCR,

i truly believe that every company gets the union they deserve. obviously jazz has the union they deserve while westjet doesn't deserve one at this time. comparing the employee/manager relationship at jazz to westjet is like comparing an apple to an orange. westjet's culture is only 13 years old while jazz's culture has a history that dates back to the 60s in some cases. westjet management have a keen interest in appeasing the pilot group as they have a keen sense of the rights that a trade union has. the westjet pilot group continues to benefit from this and should continue to capitalize on this fact. you should not make the mistake of assuming that your situation is different because your pilot group possesses a special quality that is non-existent elsewhere in aviation or did not exist in the past. don't organize unless you feel you have to but stop blaming ALPA for everything that you feel is wrong with unions. every union is different and every Local is different. unions are run by the members and union reps are chosen by the members so if the union isn't working then the membership is the one with the problem. i don't feel that every company that doesn't have a union is taking advantage of their employees or is unsafe and you shouldn't think that every company that has a union is unable to effectively communicate and resolve conflicts.

[GTFA]

Matfred,

Not every union is ruled by the membership. That may have been the original intent but things have changed over the years. Lust for power has, I beieve, corrupted many union structures. The membership does not always have the ability to adjust to the moving target of labour relations and often is blinded by an agenda of influence rather than seeking solutions. Also in the case where a pilot group joins a union other than a union like ALPA who is dedicated to represent a specific employee group. The agenda of the overiding politic will always take precedence over the specific group. This is B.A.D. and has resulted in much of the ill feelings towards unions. I am not generally accepting of unions in the workplace for this reason. Be careful what you wish for if all you want is power over your company, it gives you the power to put the last nail in their corporate coffin.

GTFA

[mattedfred]

Be careful what you wish for if all you want is power over your company, it gives you the power to put the last nail in their corporate coffin.

interesting comment. how many unionized airlines or air services have 'gone under' in canada in the last 20 years?

[CCR]

GTFA,

sorry to hit your sore spot. I guess where there's smoke there's fire. To point it back on me deflects the reality of that particular environment. One of the airlines was vindictive? Wasn't QK. Out of the 5 that now make up Jazz, my opinion was that QK had the best employee/management relationship. In saying that, the us vs. them mentality still existed and only became more entrenched toward the end of my tenure in summer of 2003. Did ALPA do something different during CCAA? Yes, and I'm pretty pretty proud of the group for doing so. I'm not naive enough to think that ALPA is fully at fault. However, a union, whether it be ALPA etc, begins to be a business unto itself. Its business interests do not always align with the company's nor the employees. I trust you have been with ALPA long enough to know this. Has ALPA always looked after your best interest? Have senior guys always run the union in the best interest of the most senior to the most junior guy? Has ALPA national and ALPA International always supported it's local membership at the Jazz level?

I left that environment on my own free will and came to WJA. I'm pretty happy with that choice. In fact, I have never doubted that choice. I'm proud to have worked for QK (Jazz not so much) and been a part of a pretty great group of people (many who felt the same and came here or Emirates). However, I don't miss the union politics, the pilot vs pilot group politics, and a management group that showed 0 leadership.

GTFA, glad you stuck it out. I'm sure it has been worth it for you and yours!

Cheers,
CCR

[GTFA]

[quote="CCR"]GTFA,

sorry to hit your sore spot. Apology accepted but it is not my sore spot.

I guess where there's smoke there's fire.I don't understand.

To point it back on me deflects the reality of that particular environment. One of the airlines was vindictive? Wasn't QK. Out of the 5 that now make up Jazz, my opinion was that QK had the best employee/management relationship. In saying that, the us vs. them mentality still existed and only became more entrenched toward the end of my tenure in summer of 2003.You must have been hanging around the wrong people

Did ALPA do something different during CCAA? Yes, and I'm pretty pretty proud of the group for doing so. I'm not naive enough to think that ALPA is fully at fault. However, a union, whether it be ALPA etc, begins to be a business unto itself. Its business interests do not always align with the company's nor the employees. The MEC has but one objective and that is to pursue the safety and success of each pilot indiviually and collectively within their airline environment. This is what ALPA National supports.

I trust you have been with ALPA long enough to know this. Has ALPA always looked after your best interest?Yes.
Have senior guys always run the union in the best interest of the most senior to the most junior guy?The senior guys do not run the union. The elected representatives do. You get who you vote for. It is a very basic and transparent democracy

Has ALPA national and ALPA International always supported it's local membership at the Jazz level?Yes. Though some may disagree on possibly two counts, they have stood behind us in our darkest hours. More than you apparently know.

I left that environment on my own free will and came to WJA. I'm pretty happy with that choice. In fact, I have never doubted that choice. I'm proud to have worked for QK (Jazz not so much) and been a part of a pretty great group of people (many who felt the same and came here or Emirates). However, I don't miss the union politics, the pilot vs pilot group politics, and a management group that showed 0 leadership.

Unfortunately any bitter union politics has been individuals bringing their own personal agenda to an issue that has broad implications. Very sad. It happens. Watch for it at a theater near you soon.

The ALPA JazzMEC is continually challenging the "leadership" at Jazz. Change sometimes comes slowly but it always comes. I hope it's for the better.

GTFA, glad you stuck it out. I'm sure it has been worth it for you and yours!

Thank you. I hope to see an improvement in the company that will benefit all with the cajones to get involved and make a difference. Those who stay, just because, will benefit as well. This is the stuff that makes up a good effective and respected union. WJ pilots are there now, though not officially a union, they are still a unified group of likeminded individuals sharing a common goal. You are fortunate to have a corporation who "Gets it."

Cheers back atcha

[GTFA]

Be careful what you wish for if all you want is power over your company, it gives you the power to put the last nail in their corporate coffin.

interesting comment. how many unionized airlines or air services have 'gone under' in canada in the last 20 years?

com-pla-cen-cy   Pronunciation [kuhm-pley-suhn-see]

–noun, plural -cies. 1. a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation, condition, etc.

I did not neccessarily mean in aviation but it does happen.

[MUSKEG]

mattedfred. Regarding unionized companies. How many times has the public been taxed to to prop up Aircanada. That should be classified as a "gone under"

[mattedfred]

muskeg,

respectfully your opinion of what 'going under' is, is just that, an opinion

public companies are entitled to the CCAA process in canada and any company can lobby any government for public funds

your opinion assumes that the union was to blame for CCAA or public funds being used to assist AC

i can assure you that the ALPA pilots at ACJ have attempted to be part of the solution for years and that we have attempted to enlighten ACJ management at every opportunity

perhaps the question should be how many non-unionized companies 'go under' in canada compared to unionized companies but there are way too many variables to consider

and remember that not all unions are created equal. comparing ALPA to ACPA to CAW to Teamsters to CUPE to OPSEU etc is unrealistic. the membership makes the union.

[MUSKEG]

If aircanada had been a private company 10 years ago it would have "gone under" no ifs and's or buts. I never said unionized employees caused the inefficiencies but one only needs to let your mind wander back 6 weeks and one realizes very quickly who has and who doesn't have a service mentality. Unions protect those that are unmotivated, incompitent and the many many cronic complainers. Unions have their place but union boses should make exactly average the wage they negotiate with owners. The mentality of "I'll tell you to strike, it's for the best" is crap at best. OK I'll strike but then union boses to can live on 100 bucks a week.

[mattedfred]

private or public, the canadian federal government would not have let air canada 'go under' 10 years ago. 10 years from now it could be very different.

laziness and greed are not a traits that unions have a monopoly on. i have found many managers to be greedy and lazy but it is always easier to blame the unionized worker then face the real problem.

[GTFA]

So I wonder how Audi did on his paper? Did he write sympathetically or critically of unions in aviation? Is it any different in aviation than other industries transportation or not?

Audi?

[culver10]

delete

[mattedfred]

the head office must remain in YUL as per the air canada participation act

are there any other canadian public companies that have this type of legislation?

WJ can have their head office anywhere. WJ can also have a MTC base anywhere. WJ also does not have to operate under the same french language legislation.

abolish the air canada act and level the playing field we can talk about government bailouts

[yyz monkey]

If aircanada had been a private company 10 years ago it would have "gone under" no ifs and's or buts.

Air Canada has been a private company for 21 years - privatized in 1988.

[MUSKEG]

It is not a private company where someone stepped up to the plate and put their money where their mouth is. Not hard to run an airline when assets are transferred. I'm not sure how the ownership thing works in this case, but I imagine it is still has government ties. If not OK, who's the owner then? Time sure passes fast, Has it been 21 years? wow. Now if only we could make CBC disappear.

[GTFA]

Air Canada is not a private company. It is a publicly traded company whereby you too can become an owner.