1300 People Killed, 5400 Injured in Occupied Palestine

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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by niss »

I am Birddog wrote:Spokes & Niss...since you don't know me and what I stand for I'll just say this;

Don't try to sell me a bag of sand by calling it dimonds. I know every single fucking detail of the 5000 year old hatred you have for each other out there in the sand piles.

"A good deal of tyranny goes by the name of protection."
~Crystal Eastman


Congratulations on protecting your ideals. You must be very proud. And if the reverse were happening...I'd be saying the same to the other side.
And that is why very few of us can have an intelligent conversation on this forum. You assume because I thoroughly disagree with many of you here, and am against the Palestinian militants, I do not hate the Palestinians or Arabs in general.

And while many here would choose to misconstrue my words, or even go as far as to completely make up quotes on my behalf, not once did I type that I hate Palestinians.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Blue Side Down »

Not really going to join the conversation here due to lack of insight into the mess, but I'm curious-

Do the news reports stating to the effect of: "13 Israelis and more than 1200 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict..." cause a head scratching moment for anyone else? 100 to 1 ratio? Did I miss something?
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by sky's the limit »

Blue Side Down wrote:100 to 1 ratio? Did I miss something?

Nope.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Guido »

niss wrote: And that is why very few of us can have an intelligent conversation on this forum. You assume because I thoroughly disagree with many of you here, and am against the Palestinian militants, I do not hate the Palestinians or Arabs in general.

And while many here would choose to misconstrue my words, or even go as far as to completely make up quotes on my behalf, not once did I type that I hate Palestinians.
You did say that you care about Israeli lives more than Palestinians, however. That's fairly easily construed as determining a worth of one group of people over another... for most people that'd be called racism, but I'd hate to be called an anti-semite... so I'll leave that thought to blow in the breeze ;)
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Blue Side Down »

I am Birddog wrote:Don't try to sell me a bag of sand by calling it dimonds. I know every single fucking detail of the 5000 year old hatred you have for each other out there in the sand piles.

I'd venture a point in here that could be used as a blanket statement for a few conflicts over the ages: Put any 9 million people into an area two thrids the size of Vancouver Island and conflict is bound to arise. Add religious fanaticism to the mix and you've got a fireworks show not to miss. Leave out religion and you'll simply be challeneged with maintaining the infastructure required to keep everyone alive and fed.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by ... »

Blue Side Down wrote:
I am Birddog wrote:Don't try to sell me a bag of sand by calling it dimonds. I know every single fucking detail of the 5000 year old hatred you have for each other out there in the sand piles.

I'd venture a point in here that could be used as a blanket statement for a few conflicts over the ages: Put any 9 million people into an area two thrids the size of Vancouver Island and conflict is bound to arise. Add religious fanaticism to the mix and you've got a fireworks show not to miss. Leave out religion and you'll simply be challeneged with maintaining the infastructure required to keep everyone alive and fed.
Understood. Lets take another culture and country's population of roughly the same size of country like ummm I don't know. Let's pick Portugal for a moment and find out how they dealt with things...

They built boats and went out exploring. :shock:

Territories of the Portuguese empire

in Africa

Angola/Portuguese West Africa - colony (1575-1589); crown colony (1589-1951); overseas province (1951-1975). Independence in 1975.
Arguin/Arguim - (1455-1633)
Accra (1557-1578)
Cabinda - protectorate (1883-1887); Congo district (1887-1921); intendancy subordinate to Maquela (1921-1922); dependency of Zaire district (1922-1930); Intendacy of Zaire and Cabinda (1930-1932); intendancy under Angola (1932-1934); dependancy under Angola (1934-1945); restored as District (1946-1975). Controlled by Frente Nacional para a Libertação de Angola (National Liberation Front of Angola) as part of independent Angola in 1975. Declared Cabinda a Republic in 1975, but not recognized by Portugal nor Angola.
Cabo Verde/Cape Verde - settlements (1462-1495); dominion of crown colonies (1495-1587); crown colony (1587-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); autonomous republic (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
Ceuta - possession (1415-1640). Became Spanish colony in 1640.
Elmina - possession (1482-1637)
Fernando Póo and Annobón - colonies (1474-1778). Ceded to Spain in 1778.
Portuguese Gold Coast - (1482-1642), ceded to Dutch Gold Coast in 1642
Guiné Portuguesa/Portuguese Guinea - colony (1879-1951); overseas province (1951-1974). Unilateral independence declared in 1973, recognized by Portugal in 1974.
Cacheu - captaincy (1640-1879). United with Bissau in 1879.
Bissau - settlement under Cacheu (1687-1696); captaincy (1696-1707); abandoned (1707-1753); separate colony under Cape Verde (1753-1879). United with Cacheu in 1879.
Madagascar - southern part (1496-1550)
Mascarene Islands - fortified post (1498-1540)
Malindi - occupation (1500-1630)
Mombassa - occupation (1593-1638); colony subordinate to Goa (1638-1698; 1728-1729). Under Omani sovereignty in 1729.
Morocco enclaves
Aguz/Souira Guedima (1506-1525)
Alcacer Ceguer/El Qsar es Seghir (1458-1550)
Arzila/Asilah (1471-1550; 1577-1589). Restored to Morocco in 1589.
Azamor/Azemmour (1513-1541). City restored to Morocco in 1541.
Mazagan/El Jadida (1485-1550); possession (1506-1769). Incorporation into Morocco in 1769.
Mogador/Essaouira (1506-1510)
Safim/Safi (1488-1541)
Santa Cruz do Cabo de Gué/Agadir (1505-1541)
Moçambique (Mozambique/Portuguese East Africa) - possession (1498-1501); subordinate to Goa (1501-1569); captaincy-general (1569-1609); colony subordinate to Goa (1609-1752); colony (1752-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); local administration (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
Quíloa (1505-1512)
Saint Laurent Islands (Madagascar) - fortified post (1498-1540)
São João Baptista de Ajudá - fort subordinate to Brazil (1721-1730); subordinate to São Tomé e Príncipe (1865-1869). Annexed by Dahomey in 1961.
São Tomé e Príncipe - crown colony (1753-1951); overseas province (1951-1971); local administration (1971-1975). Independence in 1975.
São Tomé - Possession (1470-1485); colony (1485-1522); crown colony (1522-1641); administration under Dutch occupation (1641-1648). French occupation in 1648.
Príncipe - colony (1500-1573). United with São Tomé in 1573.
Tangier - possession (1471-1662). Ceded to England in 1662.
Zanzibar - possession (1503-1698). Became part of Oman in 1698.
Ziguinchor - possession (1645-1888). Ceded to France in 1888.


in the Americas & North Atlantic

Azores - colonies (1427-1766); captaincy-general (1766-1831); overseas district (1831-1976). Made an autonomous region in 1976.
Brazil - possession known as Ilha de Santa Cruz, later Terra de Vera Cruz (1500-1530); colony (1530- 1714); vice-kingdom (1714-1815); kingdom under United Kingdom of Portugal (1815-1822), independence in 1822.
Cisplatina (Uruguay) - occupation (1808-1822). Captaincy in 1817 (of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves). Adhered as a province of the new Empire of Brazil in 1822. Became independent 1827, changing its name to Uruguay.
French Guiana - occupation (1809-1817). Restored to France in 1817.
Madeira - possession (1418-1420); colony (1420-1580); crown colony (1580-1834); overseas district (1834-1976). Made an autonomous region in 1976.
Nova Colônia do Sacramento - colony in present Uruguay (1680; 1683-1705; 1715-1777). Ceded to Spain in 1777.
Upper Peru (Bolivia) - occupation (July-December 1822).


in Asia

Banda Islands (1512-1621)
Bahrain - possession (1521-1602)
Burma - settled by Portuguese merchants in the 1600s and led by Felipe de Britto (colony called Syriam, not renamed Thanlyn).
Ceylon - colony (1597-1658). Dutch took control in 1656, Jaffna taken in 1658.
Flores Island - possession (16th-19th century)
Gamru/Bandar Abbas - possession (1506-1615)
Hormuz/Ormuz - possession subordinate to Goa (1515-1622). Incorporated into Persia in 1622.
Laccadive Islands (1498-1545)
Macau/Macao - settlement (1553-1557), leased territory subordinated to Goa (1557-1844); overseas province (1844-1883); combined overseas province with Timor-Leste under Goa (1883-1951); overseas province (1951-1975); overseas territory (1975-1999). Returned to China (with sovereignty transferred to the People's Republic of China) as a special administrative region in 1999.
Coloane - occupation in 1864
Taipa - occupation in 1851
Ilha Verde - incorporated in 1890
Lapa and Montanha Islands - occupation (1938-1941). Taken by Japan and restored to China.
Makassar (1512-1665)
Malacca - settlement (1511-1641); lost to the Dutch
Maldives - possession (1518-1521, 1558-1573)
Moluccas
Amboina/Ambon - settlement (1576-1605)
Ternate - settlement (1522-1575)
Tidore - colony (1578-1605). Seized by Dutch in 1605.
Muscat - possession (1515-1650)
Nagasaki (Deshima) (1571-1639)
Índia Portuguesa/Portuguese India - overseas province (1946-1962). Annexed by India in 1962 and recognised by Portugal in 1974.
Baçaim/Vasai - possession (1535-1739)
Bombay/Mumbai - possession (1534-1661)
Calicut/Kozhikode - settlement (1512-1525)
Cambay/Khambhat - possession
Cannanore - possession (1502-1663)
Chaul - possession (1521-1740)
Chittagong - possession (1528-1666)
Cochin - possession (1500–1663)
Cranganore - possession (1536-1662)
Damão/Daman - acquisition in 1559. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
Diu - acquisition in 1535. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
Dadra - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
Goa - colony (1510-1946). Became part of overseas province in 1946.
Hughli - possession (1579-1632)
Nagar Haveli - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
Masulipatnam (1598-1610)
Mangalore (1568-1659)
Negapatam/Nagapattinam (1507-1657)
Paliacate (1518-1610). Occupied by the Dutch in 1610.
Coulão/Quilon - possession (1502-1661)
Salsette Island - possession (1534-1601). Ceded to Britain in 1601.
São Tomé de Meliapore - settlement (1523-1662; 1687-1749)
Surat - settlement (1540-1612)
Tuticorin/Thoothukudi (1548-1658)
Socotra - possession (1506-1511). Became part of Mahri Sultanate of Qishn and Suqutra
Timor-Leste (East-Timor) - colony subordinate to Portuguese India (1642-1844); subordinate to Macau (1844-1896); separate colony (1896-1951); overseas territory (1951-1975); republic and unilateral indepedence proclaimed, annexed by Indonesia (1975-1999, UN recognition as Portuguese territory). UN administration from 1999 until independence in 2002.
Just to name a few...This is all to ask what the phuck is so important on that dirty ass strip of beach that people MUST die for...The Holy Land occupied by an invisible man some call God?
It's impressive what a culture like the Portuguese can accomplish. If Israelis & Palestinians in the middle east would just pull their heads out of the sand (pardon the pun) they both had 5000 years to claim some of the best real estate in the world...so instead what do they choose...they chose stay in the desert and fight for a dirty ass strip of sand beach that is worthless...You can't even grow a crop of corn there for phuque sakes!!!!

------------------break break-----------------------
niss wrote:
And that is why very few of us can have an intelligent conversation on this forum. You assume because I thoroughly disagree with many of you here, and am against the Palestinian militants, I do not hate the Palestinians or Arabs in general.

And while many here would choose to misconstrue my words, or even go as far as to completely make up quotes on my behalf, not once did I type that I hate Palestinians.
Ok then.

Help me (us) to understand what is going on the YYZ Jewish community when over 1200 Palestinians have died and only 12 Israelis have died...what is the general feeling in the YYZ community? Does everyone feel this is an awesome thing?

I don't mean to pick on YOU but you seem to want to interject here. On this event, your culture fukt up. You Niss didn't have anything to do with it however you Niss have the option to either admit "yeah, this is beyond my control and is fukt up" or NOT post anything here.

IMHO the atrocities against the Jews of WW2 were terrible however you were not the only culture to have holocaust. Now what ever progression was made by other cultures to help understand how we can help heal the wounds....has now been erased.

Your culture ain't any different when put in a position of power over others either military or political. Your culture has failed in the eyes of the world. You are NOT the chosen people. Chosen people would have set a better example.
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UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

Post by Dyski »

UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Enough said !!!
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by niss »

Guido wrote:
niss wrote: And that is why very few of us can have an intelligent conversation on this forum. You assume because I thoroughly disagree with many of you here, and am against the Palestinian militants, I do not hate the Palestinians or Arabs in general.

And while many here would choose to misconstrue my words, or even go as far as to completely make up quotes on my behalf, not once did I type that I hate Palestinians.
You did say that you care about Israeli lives more than Palestinians, however. That's fairly easily construed as determining a worth of one group of people over another... for most people that'd be called racism, but I'd hate to be called an anti-semite... so I'll leave that thought to blow in the breeze ;)
I am an Israeli citizen who currently has his family living in their shelters due to the rockets. My Uncle works in Sderot and recently more of my family members were in reach of the rockets.

This is not about someone sitting and watching the conflict from a comfy armchair, that opinion is from someone who has personal stakes in this conflict.

Like I said, I have great empathy on the Palestinian people, my stomach churns when ever I read about the kids who have died or the people who have no where to go in order to escape danger. I may not believe that some of the cases are as dire as displayed (ie Pallywood, etc) But certainly many legitimate civilians are legitimately suffering.

I have seen the videos of the west bank and how the settlers treat them as less than human. I would like nothing more then to see them get their comeuppances. No one deserves to be treated like they treat the Palestinians.

All that said, when it comes down to a conflict where my family and my countrymen are in danger I am not afraid to draw my line in the sand and show who I am cheering for. I don't have the luxury to look at this as simply another conflict 'over-there', @#$! it, nuke em all, etc.

So please do not take my words to say that I hate the Palestinian People. I do not, I hate Hamas, I hate Hizbollah.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by crazy_aviator »

The reason WHY Israelis want the "homeland" ( eretz Israel? ) is because of their misunderstanding of biblical scriptures . They believe in a PHYSICAL empire based at Jerusulem where-in the saviour is to rule the world and they are going to be part of it , regardless of who is killed and what they do ( Zionists) The truth of the matter is, In order to rule with the saviour, we are to put down arms and be regenerated in heart and mind. Our only battle is SPIRITUAL. The temple is no longer in Jerusulem but within us and NEW Jerusulem comes down from above NOT a patch of land in the middle east ! To any unbelievers, Please excuse me of this little rant.
To my Jewish friends i say " GROW UP "
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by niss »

Cloud_Dancer? Is that you?
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Dash-Ate »

I know we've been brainwashed by the media but the FACTS are:

Israel has all-white standing army who was raised since children in isloation and segregation and told they are "chosen ones" , and then stick guns and WMD into their hands as teenagers...and what do you expect?

a racist killing spree making lots of "crispy critters"
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by fanspeed »

niss wrote:Cloud_Dancer? Is that you?
or was it cloudcounter?
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by niss »

fanspeed wrote:
niss wrote:Cloud_Dancer? Is that you?
or was it cloudcounter?
My bad.
Dash-Ate wrote:I know we've been brainwashed by the media but the FACTS are:

Israel has all-white standing army who was raised since children in isloation and segregation and told they are "chosen ones" , and then stick guns and WMD into their hands as teenagers...and what do you expect?

a racist killing spree making lots of "crispy critters"
I would expect some of your 'Facts' to be accurate. All white? Well the Bedouin volunteer to the IDF and the Druze are drafted so there goes your accusations that it is just jews killing arabs.

What do you know of segregation and isolation? I assume you have a legitimate source to support this?

Full of shit, through and through.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by sky's the limit »

Niss,

While I can understand your attachment to this, I must say at this point I'm quite disappointed in you support for what's gone on. The entire planet is enraged about it, and for good reason. It's OK to admit as much.

stl
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by niss »

STL,

I will wait for the dust to settle and an investigation to look into it before I get outraged.

I have no doubt about the destruction caused to civilians is massive and for that I do feel remorse, but until I hear an impartial casualty count, I side with the IDF.

Something tells me that the Hamas run Health Ministry might have something to gain from skewing the numbers a little.

What was your opinion during the Jenin 'Massacre'?
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by ... »

niss wrote:
Like I said, I have great empathy on the Palestinian people, my stomach churns when ever I read about the kids who have died or the people who have no where to go in order to escape danger. I may not believe that some of the cases are as dire as displayed (ie Pallywood, etc) But certainly many legitimate civilians are legitimately suffering.
Pallywood :lol: Well I guess the Hizbollah have out Oscar'd you folks. For a people that are very good at entertaining the rest of the world through movies...maybe you should take some pointers from Palestinians because clearly, they HAVE you beat.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by sky's the limit »

niss wrote:STL,

I will wait for the dust to settle and an investigation to look into it before I get outraged.

I have no doubt about the destruction caused to civilians is massive and for that I do feel remorse, but until I hear an impartial casualty count, I side with the IDF.

Something tells me that the Hamas run Health Ministry might have something to gain from skewing the numbers a little.

What was your opinion during the Jenin 'Massacre'?

It's not the numbers for me Niss. It's the action, the principals of those who made it happen, and the frightening regularity of this type of action. AND, the fact most of the world sat by and watched it all go down...

This is right out of the playbook though, and that is a book worth being worried about, regardless of who the perpetrators or victims are.

Anyway, I look forward to a more sober discussion with you about this at a later date when, as you say, "the dust has settled."

stl
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Hedley »

most of the world sat by and watched it all go down
How old are you, STL? You come across as someone very young,
naive, idealistic and not particularly well educated in history.

For example, "most of the world" sat by while the Holocaust happened
in WWII. Boatfuls of jewish refugees were refused by country after
country. The Pope sure didn't care. The Swiss got rich.

"Most of the world" sat by while Stalin murdered millions of people,
something that the left-wing media likes to forget.

"Most of the world" - including your precious UN - didn't do diddly
about the slaughter in Rwanda, and "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia
struggled to make the front page. I guess the UN bureaucrats
were too busy stealing billions of dollars in the Iraq "food for oil"
scam.

How old are you, again? :roll:
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by bmc »

Hedley wrote:
most of the world sat by and watched it all go down
"Most of the world" sat by while Stalin murdered millions of people,
something that the left-wing media likes to forget.
What the hell does that mean? :smt042
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Hedley »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
described as a "Soviet holocaust" by several authors,[3][4][5] it involved the purge of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, repression of peasants, Red Army leadership, and the persecution of unaffiliated persons, characterized by widespread police surveillance, widespread suspicion of "saboteurs", imprisonment, and killings.[1] Estimates of the number of deaths associated with the Great Purge run from the official figure of 681,692 to nearly 2 million.
What a great guy. But I'm sure that in the opinion
of left-wing talking heads everywhere, George Bush
was much worse than this dude :roll:

Maybe you're not old enough to remember your
good ol' Soviet Union, but they always received
sympathetic coverage from the left-wing press
and Hollywood, no matter what horrible things
they did.

Heck, even Pierre Elliot Trudeau was a good pal
of the Soviet Union, and Fidel Castro. Didn't Fidel
even come to Canada for PET's funeral?

Here's another contrast. About a year ago, the
russian government killed an ex-KGB agent in
Britain with radioactive material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_ ... _situation

Again, the left-wing media would paint George
Bush as being far worse a villain than that :roll:

If we are to believe the left-wing media, George
Bush ate babies for breakfast, every day of the
8 years that he was in power.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by rdj200 »

I think we just have to accept that there will never, ever be any lasting peace in the Middle East giving all the supporting factors. Human nature is just so violent that we can never get along for any length of time, and even when we are at peace, governments just use those times as arms races for the next conflict. Unless there is a shift in our nature where we actually seek to be at peace with others, instead of forcing our will on those who do not view the world our way. Anyway, getting back to the topic of the crisis in the Middle East; a couple of things need to happen (my opinion, there are a whole lot of people way smarter than I am):
1. Jerusalem needs to be under neutral protectorate, separated into Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and Secular quarters, with the Temple Mount as neutral territory. This is the biggest source of conflict where the Muslims cannot accept having Jews control what they consider one of the holiest places, and vice versa for the Jews.
2. Historically, the Jews were from an area known as Judea, which is southern Israel-the map needs to be re-drawn. As well, there are areas that are predominately Arab, and those areas are the ones that should be the Palestinian state. In my opinion the Roman maps of the Judea are a good place to start since that was the last time Jews were allowed in that area. Lastly, some communities will be mixed Jews and Palestinians, which would be good; we tend to fear what we do not know, and if there was more mixing of Jews and Arabs we could have more understanding and a more lasting peace.
3. Terrorism is a tactic-how can you wage war on a tactic, these attacks need to be addressed as they are, criminal acts. As such using military force to counteract them is wrong, Hamas and whoever need to be apprehended and tried as common criminals.
4. Allow the Arabs to resettle in their old communities; the Arabs must realize that although they were driven from their homes when Israel was formed, countless Jews were driven from their homes in the Arab world.
5. Finally, the Muslims need to remember that in this modern world it is not acceptable to mercilessly attack a people because some prophet said so 1400 years ago. The Jews need to remember, just because they suffered at the hands of the Germans, does not mean that they have a license to do so to others. They are no longer some poor refugees who are just trying to defend themselves, but a modern society with one of the most lethal fighting forces in the area and are called to a higher standard.

These are just some of my thoughts on the issue, I wanted to bring up these ideas instead of bashing other ideas, which is what we do when someone offends us. I don't think either side was totally wrong or totally right in the crisis, Israel has no right to treat the Palestinians as they have, but this does not mean the rocket attacks are justified. In the same way, Israel does not have the right to use disproportionate force against the Palestinians. Let us remember that violence brings violence; but mercy brings mercy, in closing let this debate not cause strife, but let goodwill endure. Peace be to you all.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Blue Side Down »

rdj200 wrote: 5. Finally, the Muslims need to remember that in this modern world it is not acceptable to mercilessly attack a people because some prophet said so 1400 years ago.
A slight issue here, if I dare say, is that in many ways, certain modern day societies' psyches have not transitioned out of the school of thought common in 600 AD, as you mention. Hell, it took the Western world till 1945 to progress into 'modern' thinking, and even that's uncertain. I'm not talking about technology either, but rather how to deal with daily differences. It was only after WW2 that the societies of relatively successful (/lucky) nations took a moment to reflect and come to the modest conclusion of, 'you know what, dying sucks'. There are a lot of other societies in the world who simply haven't gotten there yet. Though I suppose that's easy enough to say, secluded in a country with a population density of 3 people per square kilometer and a trillion dollar GDP.

I'm sticking to the theory that there are a lot of underlying parallel drivers to this conflict than simply a few feuding (insert religious text of choice) thumpers. The world is shrinking, but it's not getting any smaller.
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by 2R »

JERUSALEM - The use of Nazi imagery at recent anti-Israel demonstrations across Europe has fanned the flames of anti-Semitism and incited violence against Jews, the head of Israel's Holocaust memorial said Monday.

Protests against Israel's Gaza offensive have included signs and slogans comparing Israeli soldiers to German troops, the Gaza Strip to the Auschwitz death camp and the Jewish Star of David to the Nazi swastika.

The protests have come amid a dramatic increase in anti-Semitic acts, including attacks on synagogues, beatings of pro-Israel demonstrators and proposed boycotts of Jewish businesses, according to the U.S.-based Anti-Defamation League.



Avner Shalev, chairman of the Yad Vashem museum and memorial, said the comparisons were "manipulative distortions of history" and called for the Holocaust to be left out of contemporary political discourse.

"It is legitimate to constructively criticize the policies of any nation, including Israel. However, the baseless use of Holocaust imagery and terminology as a weapon against Israel has incited a tangible surge of anti-Semitism," he said. "That is the danger inherent when people cynically use the Holocaust to distort a present political conflict."

Accusations of anti-Semitism
Most of the protesters reject any accusation of anti-Semitism.

The Nazis and their collaborators murdered 6 million Jews in an attempt to eradicate European Jewry during World War II, shutting them in ghettos and concentration camps and killing them in gas chambers.

More than 1,200 Palestinians were killed during Israel's three-week operation, launched on Dec. 27 to halt near-daily rocket fire from Gaza toward Israel. More than half the dead were civilians, according to the United Nations. Thirteen Israelis also died in the fighting.

Images of the devastation in Gaza — including the bloodied bodies of children and anguished victims in hospitals — stoked protests around the world. Human rights groups accused Israel of using disproportionate force and of not doing enough to protect Gaza's civilian population.

Anti-Semitic incidents during the war spiked markedly in Europe, the Anti-Defamation League said.

Molotov cocktails have been hurled toward synagogues in France, Sweden and Belgium. Jews have been beaten in England and Norway, and an Italian union endorsed a boycott of Jewish-owned shops in Rome.

In Amsterdam, a Dutch lawmaker marched in a demonstration where the crowd hollered "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the Gas." Socialist lawmaker Harry van Bommel said he did not repeat calls for another Holocaust and only chanted, "Intifada, Intifada, Free Palestine."

'Big concentration camp'
The Norwegian finance minister took part in a protest where comparisons were made between Nazis and Jews. A British lawmaker whose grandmother died in the Holocaust said Israeli soldiers were acting like Nazis and most recently, a senior Vatican official, Cardinal Renato Martino, said Gaza under the Israeli military offensive resembled a "big concentration camp."

"We have always seen a link between violence in the Middle East to anti-Semitism but we have never seen anything like what we are seeing now," said Abraham Foxman, a Holocaust survivor and the national director of the ADL. "Not on this scale, not in this intensity."

He said similar protests have also taken place in the United States. In San Francisco, protesters burned Israeli flags and carried banners reading "Jews are terrorists," "ZionismNazism," and "GazaHolocaust." Some read "Zionazis."

"If you think Israel is too aggressive, say it! But don't use the words 'Ghetto' and 'Nazi,'" Shalev said.

Speaking at the cornerstone-laying ceremony for a new wing at Yad Vashem's International School for Holocaust Studies, he said the school's students study the painful lessons of that era. He said that includes speaking out against injustice anywhere.

"But they also learn that absurd and vicious comparisons of current events in the Middle East to the Holocaust do nothing to further understanding of the current situation," he said. "Instead they cloud our judgment and our perceptions."


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

HAMAS = Hiding Amongst Mosques And Schools
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by Spokes »

I am Birddog wrote:Spokes & Niss...since you don't know me and what I stand for I'll just say this;

Don't try to sell me a bag of sand by calling it dimonds. I know every single fucking detail of the 5000 year old hatred you have for each other out there in the sand piles.

"A good deal of tyranny goes by the name of protection."
~Crystal Eastman


Congratulations on protecting your ideals. You must be very proud. And if the reverse were happening...I'd be saying the same to the other side.

Why are you dragging me into this. You certainly do not know me, or what I stand for. I have absolutely no personal interest in this matter on one side or another. And I certainly have no hatred for anyone because of what religious myth they believe or where they were born or etc ....
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Re: 1200 People Killed, Thousands Injured in Occupied Palestine

Post by bob sacamano »

Post details: Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields

Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields



Gaza's offshore marine area is contiguous to several Israeli offshore gas facilities.
By Michel Chossudovsky

The military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israeli Forces bears a direct relation to the control and ownership of strategic offshore gas reserves.

This is a war of conquest. Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas reserves off the Gaza coastline.

[More:]
British Gas (BG Group) and its partner, the Athens based Consolidated Contractors International Company (CCC) owned by Lebanon's Sabbagh and Koury families, were granted oil and gas exploration rights in a 25 year agreement signed in November 1999 with the Palestinian Authority.
The rights to the offshore gas field are respectively British Gas (60 percent); Consolidated Contractors (CCC) (30 percent); and the Investment Fund of the Palestinian Authority (10 percent). (Haaretz, October 21, 2007).
The PA-BG-CCC agreement includes field development and the construction of a gas pipeline. (Middle East Economic Digest, Jan 5, 2001).
The BG licence covers the entire Gazan offshore marine area, which is contiguous to several Israeli offshore gas facilities. It should be noted that 60 percent of the gas reserves along the Gaza-Israel coastline belong to Palestine.
The BG Group drilled two wells in 2000: Gaza Marine-1 and Gaza Marine-2. Reserves are estimated by British Gas to be of the order of 1.4 trillion cubic feet, valued at approximately 4 billion dollars. These are the figures made public by British Gas. The size of Palestine's gas reserves could be much larger.

Who Owns the Gas Fields?

The issue of sovereignty over Gaza's gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to Palestine.
The death of Yasser Arafat, the election of the Hamas government and the ruin of the Palestinian Authority have enabled Israel to establish de facto control over Gaza's offshore gas reserves.
British Gas (BG Group) has been dealing with the Tel Aviv government. In turn, the Hamas government has been bypassed in regards to exploration and development rights over the gas fields.
The election of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 was a major turning point. Palestine's sovereignty over the offshore gas fields was challenged in the Israeli Supreme Court. Sharon stated unequivocally that Israel would never buy gas from Palestine, intimating that Gaza's offshore gas reserves belong to Israel.
In 2003, Ariel Sharon, vetoed an initial deal, which would allow British Gas to supply Israel with natural gas from Gaza's offshore wells. (The Independent, August 19, 2003)
The election victory of Hamas in 2006 was conducive to the demise of the Palestinian Authority, which became confined to the West Bank, under the proxy regime of Mahmoud Abbas.
In 2006, British Gas "was close to signing a deal to pump the gas to Egypt." (Times, May, 23, 2007). According to reports, British Prime Minister Tony Blair intervened on behalf of Israel with a view to shunting the agreement with Egypt.
The following year, in May 2007, the Israeli Cabinet approved a proposal by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "to buy gas from the Palestinian Authority." The proposed contract was for $4 billion, with profits of the order of $2 billion of which one billion was to go the Palestinians.
Tel Aviv, however, had no intention of sharing the revenues with Palestine. An Israeli team of negotiators was set up by the Israeli Cabinet to thrash out a deal with the BG Group, bypassing both the Hamas government and the Palestinian Authority:
"Israeli defence authorities want the Palestinians to be paid in goods and services and insist that no money go to the Hamas-controlled Government." (Ibid)
The objective was essentially to nullify the contract signed in 1999 between the BG Group and the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat.
Under the proposed 2007 agreement with BG, Palestinian gas from Gaza's offshore wells was to be channeled by an undersea pipeline to the Israeli seaport of Ashkelon, thereby transferring control over the sale of the natural gas to Israel.
The deal fell through. The negotiations were suspended:
"Mossad Chief Meir Dagan opposed the transaction on security grounds, that the proceeds would fund terror". (Member of Knesset Gilad Erdan, Address to the Knesset on "The Intention of Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to Purchase Gas from the Palestinians When Payment Will Serve Hamas," March 1, 2006, quoted in Lt. Gen. (ret.) Moshe Yaalon, Does the Prospective Purchase of British Gas from Gaza's Coastal Waters Threaten Israel's National Security? Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, October 2007)
Israel's intent was to foreclose the possibility that royalties be paid to the Palestinians. In December 2007, The BG Group withdrew from the negotiations with Israel and in January 2008 they closed their office in Israel. (BG website).

Invasion Plan on The Drawing Board

The invasion plan of the Gaza Strip under "Operation Cast Lead" was set in motion in June 2008, according to Israeli military sources:
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago [June or before June], even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas."(Barak Ravid, Operation "Cast Lead": Israeli Air Force strike followed months of planning, Haaretz, December 27, 2008)
That very same month, the Israeli authorities contacted British Gas, with a view to resuming crucial negotiations pertaining to the purchase of Gaza's natural gas:
"Both Ministry of Finance director general Yarom Ariav and Ministry of National Infrastructures director general Hezi Kugler agreed to inform BG of Israel's wish to renew the talks.
The sources added that BG has not yet officially responded to Israel's request, but that company executives would probably come to Israel in a few weeks to hold talks with government officials." (Globes online- Israel's Business Arena, June 23, 2008)
The decision to speed up negotiations with British Gas (BG Group) coincided, chronologically, with the planning of the invasion of Gaza initiated in June. It would appear that Israel was anxious to reach an agreement with the BG Group prior to the invasion, which was already in an advanced planning stage.
Moreover, these negotiations with British Gas were conducted by the Ehud Olmert government with the knowledge that a military invasion was on the drawing board. In all likelihood, a new "post war" political-territorial arrangement for the Gaza strip was also being contemplated by the Israeli government.
In fact, negotiations between British Gas and Israeli officials were ongoing in October 2008, 2-3 months prior to the commencement of the bombings on December 27th.
In November 2008, the Israeli Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of National Infrastructures instructed Israel Electric Corporation (IEC) to enter into negotiations with British Gas, on the purchase of natural gas from the BG's offshore concession in Gaza. (Globes, November 13, 2008)
"Ministry of Finance director general Yarom Ariav and Ministry of National Infrastructures director general Hezi Kugler wrote to IEC CEO Amos Lasker recently, informing him of the government's decision to allow negotiations to go forward, in line with the framework proposal it approved earlier this year.
The IEC board, headed by chairman Moti Friedman, approved the principles of the framework proposal a few weeks ago. The talks with BG Group will begin once the board approves the exemption from a tender." (Globes Nov. 13, 2008)

Gaza and Energy Geopolitics

The military occupation of Gaza is intent upon transferring the sovereignty of the gas fields to Israel in violation of international law.
What can we expect in the wake of the invasion?
What is the intent of Israel with regard to Palestine's Natural Gas reserves?
A new territorial arrangement, with the stationing of Israeli and/or "peacekeeping" troops?
The militarization of the entire Gaza coastline, which is strategic for Israel?
The outright confiscation of Palestinian gas fields and the unilateral declaration of Israeli sovereignty over Gaza's maritime areas?
If this were to occur, the Gaza gas fields would be integrated into Israel's offshore installations, which are contiguous to those of the Gaza Strip.
These various offshore installations are also linked up to Israel's energy transport corridor, extending from the port of Eilat, which is an oil pipeline terminal, on the Red Sea to the seaport - pipeline terminal at Ashkelon, and northwards to Haifa, and eventually linking up through a proposed Israeli-Turkish pipeline with the Turkish port of Ceyhan.
Ceyhan is the terminal of the Baku, Tblisi Ceyhan Trans Caspian pipeline. "What is envisaged is to link the BTC pipeline to the Trans-Israel Eilat-Ashkelon pipeline, also known as Israel's Tipline." (See Michel Chossudovsky, The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil, Global Research, July 23, 2006)

-Michel Chossudovsky is a Canadian economist. He is a professor of economics at the University of Ottawa. He is also editor for the Centre for Research on Globalization, which operates a website at globalresearch.ca.
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